Handling? What handling?

[RichieK]

Hi Fred,

As mentioned in my intro thread, try Willie at CLCM for an alignment, he is very good:

11 Bankhead Dr  Edinburgh EH11 4EJ
0131 458 5559

[FGrob]

I think the point that some of you are missing is "minimising the risk" OK you may have been very luck not to have an incident but is not better to reduce that risk and make the car as safe as you can afford, there is 10+ years of experience / history embedded in this forum, not old wives tails which I'm sure some of you think these points are.

90% of the recent problems seen on here are because the previous owners are  sfuck fuck sfuck ing clueless.

And finally - what price do you put on your passenger / your own life.

Rob.

[Wabbitkilla]

And yet Ackers you are offering an opinion that is at odds with people who have driven this car for years and do actually demand more of the handling due to that experience. Many of us can tell the difference of one or two psi difference in the tyres because we are that used to the cars. Toyo is just one of a few tyre makers who make tyres that behave well on this car.It's always down to personal preference of course and some people prefer different pressures ... but essentially the tyres on this car are mixed, and they're no-name tyres of questionable ability ... even the wrong sizes. I'm not going to burn you, I'm only suggesting that you haven't the experience of other members. We can offer to help our friends and members with advice and opinion ... or we can keep quiet and let you enjoy the car, but maybe you're not enjoying it as much as you could be if you paid attention to the advice and opinions of those with a bit more experience?

Geometry -- yes check it and correct it
Tyres -- I for one recommend a change to something "known" and with the ability to keep you and the car safe, there are plenty of reviews on the forum to make an educated choice.

This is a fun car that demands much of its components, the more you get experienced with it the more demands you put on to it. The tyres are what keep you on the black stuff and out of the hedges, why take the risk?

[Jaik]

Ackers, which Bridgestone tyres do you have? If they're RE040's they're the OEM tyre and are pretty good, certainly worlds apart from "budget" tyres.

To summarise this is why I believe members on here (rightly IMO) make a big deal about having decent tyres fitted:

• The Roadster is a very "tyre sensitive" car. That's obviously a subjective term and one I'll struggle to back up with any data, but I believe it's a product of the suspension geometry and weight balance, meaning that changing the behaviour of the tyre has more of an effect on the handling characteristics than on a FWD shopping car.
• Predictability. Your typical budget tyre has relatively little money invested in developing the rubber compound. Tyre technology has been arguably one of the fastest advancements in the car industry in the past 20 years and the big manufacturers spend vast amounts of money developing their compounds to be consistent and predictable through heat cycles and tyre wear. You only have to read any blind tyre group test to see that this is the case. Predictable handling is safe handling.
• Mixed tyres. Kind of the same point as above, but is worth covering separately. Each tyre compound and treat pattern will behave differently in different driving conditions (eg. temperature difference, rain), which with mismatched tyres will mean the balance of grip front to rear (and thus balance of the car) will be constantly changing.
• Weight distribution. Bearing in mind most '2 owners are coming from front-engined cars, the speed things get blurry and backwards when you overstep the limits of the tyres are rather higher than they would be used to. It's not got the lift-off oversteer of something like an Elise, but then would you run an Elise on budget tyres? What could be a simple twitch of the car with most vehicles can be rather more pronounced in something with more weight over the rear axle than the front.

My kit car currently has crap budget tyres on, Durun Sportsomethings. They're hilariously bad and hugely slow down progress even at road speeds. Am I desperate to change them right away? Not particularly, because while it slips around a lot, it's a very easy car to gather up and it just makes things rather amusing and silly, if slow and imprecise. Will I change them before I wear them out? Yes. Would I run them on a '2? Not a chance, they'd ruin the whole driving experience and make me nervous every time I got in it.

[Steve Green]

+1
When I bought my 2 it had a couple of newish Budget tyres on it and some rears that were past their best. First thing I did was to put a set of Bridgestone RE40's on it and get the Geo checked. Only after a couple of hundred miles did I push the car hard.
What a difference!

Not wanting to make a bigger issue, we, on this forum, are the expert amateurs, there are some expert professionals around, mostly on this forum too.
Few garage mechanics, even Toyota ones, ever see an MR2 on a regular basis and frequently make poor diagnosis to problems that we know have simple solutions. Tyre fitters are much the same, more interested in profit margins than anything else.
Checking the geometry is worth while, but if your tyres have worn to a poor geometry setting, they will not perform at their best so you may still have poor handling issues.

[AckersMR2]

 s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:flame: :flame: s:flame:    s:flame: :flame: s:flame:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  

I knew that was coming, I just thought that the advise had started to move away from what I thought was best and was made by Matt and D!ck originally, but once Fred mentioned the make of the tyres it seemed all focus moved onto that and I may have gone a little overboard using a comparison which really bares no relevance whatsoever to a rear wheeled driver mid engine sports car but as some know from experience, if the car is set up badly then it makes no difference what tyres you've got on there.

 s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:

[Wabbitkilla]

 s:lol: :lol: s:lol:    s:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes: s:crazyeyes:  

Agreed that if the Geo is out, then it's out ... but tyres are also important and there are more than a few people wh've said "I didn't realise how bad they were until I replaced them"   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[kentsmudger]

I've not long owned my 2 having had it for only 4mths, but reading the advice on here you would think that if your tyres don't say Toyo on them or they are 1psi out from advised then the car will fire you off into the undergrowth at the first bend you come upon like some sort of out of control exocet missile!
My 2 has Bridgestones fitted to it

No-one is saying that Toyo are the best and only tyres - They are however cheap and very good so a good tyre to buy if you don't want to spend loads of money - They are better than no-names like Runway or Zeon. Bridgestone  are better than them too, so are Goodyear, Michelin etc etc.

You really don't want to drive a 2 in the wet or at speed on cheapo tyres, especially more than one type of cheapo tyres on the same car. I have and hated it - I have since done 50,000 miles on Toyos and don't think I need to spend more than they cost for my usage.

To the OP - Tracking/ alignment is well worth getting sorted, if that doesn't fix it and nothing is broken, then get 4 new tyres on it and see how that goes

[alfajerry]

Fred,
It'll be the tyres; I would never even think about fitting those makes to any of my cars, let alone the MR2.
*NEVER* economise on tyres, you only have four small contact patches keeping you safe.

[fred888]

Car booked in 9.00am tomorrow for geo.
I'm beginning to think she's suffered a side swipe at the drivers rear. There were some kerb marks on that wheel before restoration but not any more than your typical scuff.
Just as a visual test, I put a spirit level against all the wheels and the ones on the drivers side were out of vertical (splayed out at bottom) whilst the nearside were vertical. I don't know what the camber settings should be but I'm pretty sure they should be the same on both sides of the car.
The garage I'm going to seem to have their act together, running a race team as well so should have good understanding of geo setups.
£25 for four wheel alignment - better than £250 for four tyres.
I must say I'm impressed with the input received from you guys. Gets a little bit heated sometimes but understandable with the passion you all have.
I will report back on any adjustments made and resulting difference in the roadholding.
Cheers

[Wabbitkilla]

You should be looking for -1.5 degrees camber at each corner. Hope you get it sorted matey  s:grin: :grin: s:grin:

Sent from a planet somewhere nearby

[fred888]

You should be looking for -1.5 degrees camber at each corner. Hope you get it sorted matey  s:grin: :grin: s:grin:

Sent from a planet somewhere nearby

Thanks Wabbitkilla - I'll let the mechanics know. I'm sure they'll charge me extra to adjust the camber but if it means getting the car to handle as good as it looks - well worth it.

Cheers

[Stephster]

Just a point regarding tyres (again). My back yokos were getting close to the legal limit. Anyone who has met me will be able to tell you  that I do not drive my car anywhere close to its limits and can be found at the back tootling along when the rest of the pack are taking off round bends. My point is that even having the yokos same all round, with the back worn, the handling was getting a bit hairy even under normal circumstances and horrid in the wet, even when driving like the sensible middle aged person I am.
Replacing the whole lot with new tyres made a HUGE difference to the handling - after I got the balancing sorted properly, not by the bunch of monkeys who fitted the tyres in the first place.
If you drive a car like a 2, and you wish to be safe in it, you should accept the cost of the tyres. I drive the 2 as my "fun" car and the £280 hurt,  but at the end of the day, isn't that much for something that will perhaps stop you from sliding into a ditch/tree. If you doubt this ever happens, it does even with a decent set up. At last count there were 5 casualties in the last year from this club alone ( at least ), with spin offs round a bend, one ending up upside down in Italy, and another taking off after a bump/dip and hitting a tree. Luckily all members were ok, but there is a lesson to be learned there - the 2 is a little temperamental and has no driver aids - therefore investing in some decent rubber is sensible and why so many people on here get a little "passionate" if someone doesn't seem to be getting the message.

[Anonymous]

Just a thought, Fred. We have seen them with the knuckle bent so that they cannot be brought into the acceptable range, after being struck from the side. Its not obvious till you swap out the knuckle. (the bit with the hole in that the drive shaft passes through, and all the suspension parts connect to).
Not too expensive to sort, but hard to diagnose.

[fred888]

Just a thought, Fred. We have seen them with the knuckle bent so that they cannot be brought into the acceptable range, after being struck from the side. Its not obvious till you swap out the knuckle. (the bit with the hole in that the drive shaft passes through, and all the suspension parts connect to).
Not too expensive to sort, but hard to diagnose.

Cheers! Another bit of info I can be armed with if the mechanics can't align the wheels.

[fred888]

Hey Ackers - Have you got a 'My other car's a motorbike' sticker in your rear window? LOL
I'm an ex biker (maybe re-born at some point)
The MR2 seemed like a logical progression from two wheels to four - without losing too much excitement!

[Wabbitkilla]

[MOD]If we could stick to the subject and respect the op please? this thread has had some of the more negative entries removed, they really were not constructive or helpful[/MOD]

Fred, sorry we should have welcomed you better there, sounds like you're starting with sensible actions ... keep us updated how it goes.

Sent from a planet somewhere nearby

[AckersMR2]

Hey Ackers - Have you got a 'My other car's a motorbike' sticker in your rear window? LOL
I'm an ex biker (maybe re-born at some point)
The MR2 seemed like a logical progression from two wheels to four - without losing too much excitement!

No but I should have  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:
Still hanging to the 2-wheel bug for the moment although it's getting more difficult to choose if and when the sun shines?  s:( s:(
Good luck with the tracking today, hope it sorts out your woes. As other, far more experienced  s;) s;)  people than me have said, I'm sure a better make tyre would improve things, but at the very least get 4 that match. If the existing tyres are nearly new you could always flog them on eBay or gumtree? Perhaps it would be prudent not to advertise them on here though  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[fred888]

Just had the geo checked - slightly out but not enough to explain handling issues.
It was pointed out that my front tyres were rock hard. And indeed, compared to the rears there was no give at all in the rubber.
Although they looked 'as new' from a distance, the trained eye of the mechanic found some slight cracking in the side walls.
The tyres may even be older than the car! This would explain the front end movement
He has offered a couple of new Bridgestones with quite soft compound rubber. £49 each fitted! I don't remember the exact model of tyre but he swears by them.
I will get these fitted to the front. The back has always been well planted but if replacing the fronts exposes failings at the rear, I'll get new boots on the back as well.
Money back guarantee if I don't experience an instant improvement. Can't say fairer than that.

[Steve Green]

Tyres are date marked as standard. Anything over 5 years old is suspect as they do degrade in sunlight.
If yu have read the tyre issues on this site you will know that the MR2 is sensitive to tyre type and pressures. There are several different Bridgestone variants the originas on the MR2 were RE40's

I wonder if your tyre fitter has ever driven an MR2, yet he swears by them. I bet his motivation is profit and not performance.

A cheap tyre, even with a brand name, will give cheap handling. You have a RWD car there the rear tyres need to grip otherwise you will find them overtaking you as you go round a corner under power.

Cant help but think you are hell bent on ignoring the advice given here.

[Anonymous]

I think we are
here.

[Steve Green]

I think we are
here.

+1 I lIke the graphic.

[FGrob]

I think you have to accept that it's down to the individual to make their own mind up, advice has been given and it's really up to them to make a decision based on the information available / supplied / recommended, if they choose a different route - that's their choice, I think it's best to leave it there.

[BenF]

Just had the geo checked - slightly out but not enough to explain handling issues.
It was pointed out that my front tyres were rock hard. And indeed, compared to the rears there was no give at all in the rubber.
Although they looked 'as new' from a distance, the trained eye of the mechanic found some slight cracking in the side walls.
The tyres may even be older than the car! This would explain the front end movement
He has offered a couple of new Bridgestones with quite soft compound rubber. £49 each fitted! I don't remember the exact model of tyre but he swears by them.
I will get these fitted to the front. The back has always been well planted but if replacing the fronts exposes failings at the rear, I'll get new boots on the back as well.

Just to echo the others views here - to get a well balanced, well handling car that is progressive on the limit you need at a minimum the same tyre (make / model ) all around, and a good Geo setup by a specalist.

I track mine - and have used cheap tyres as track tyres and as long as you have the same ones all around, and tyre pressures / Geo is setup correctly the car will be balanced OK, but you won't be as quick as others on the circuit - that doesn't bother me at all.

For the road though it is different - Toyo's are cheap and good performers.

So - I'd advise (as others ) to go for a set of Toyo  T1-Rs ( 200-250 quid ) and a Specalist Geo alignment ( 80 quid ). From your comment about the rear camber, that can be corrected with 'crash bolts' and would need sorting - a specalist should have these and be able to fit them as part of the alignment. I would not take it to a local garage, or even a bodyshop to get the alignment done - take it to a specalist, someone has recommended a local one to you above.

That will transform the handling of the car.

I'd bet your insurance excess would be more than the is more than a cost of a set of tyres and a Geo setup  s:) s:)

[stargazer30]

Oy you lot, leave the Op alone.  When I joined here you gave me the same speal about my mis matched tyres even though a certain main dealer told me they were fine.  Having run mismatched on previous FWD cars for years I ignored you all too.

I mean the fact that shortly after getting it, it tried to kill me first time it rained coming off a NSL roundabout was pure coincidence.  As is the fact its been well planted and stable ever since I put decent rubber on all four corners and binned a brand new set of from ying yangs or whatever the they were.  Sarcasim aside, I am converted now.  I even have a spare set of wheels with winter tyres on them for the cold.

Take care Op, we really don't want to read another "I've binned my MR2" thread.