Handling? What handling?

[bigwillcv36]

I would definitely get the tracking done by a '2 specialist.
My car felt seriously twitchy at higher speeds, especially noticeable on long gentle bends (motorways were really scary).
Got the tracking done by Matt Performance. He said they were within Toyota's "acceptable" limits before, but after he'd adjusted them the car was a different animal. It really made a huge difference.
I wouldn't trust anyone who doesn't have decent knowledge of '2s to adjust my tracking.
I've always had matched tyres (recently replaced a decent set of Yoko's from the front coz the backs were low on tread and wanted to switch to Toyo TR1s) so can't comment on how miss-match handles as I decided to trust the accumulated wisdom and stay with matched tyres.

[Stephster]

Did you ebay ( or use any other auction site ) to sell your yokos. I did the same as you, and got £45 for my two front yokos.

[MattPerformance]

Just had the geo checked - slightly out but not enough to explain handling issues.
It was pointed out that my front tyres were rock hard...

What were the geo readings?
And any word on actual tyre pressures?

[Jon_G]

At the risk of upsetting either of the rather stroppy members, I'd like to ask if any of you actually know why these cars are so horribly touchy about mixing tyres? It isn't simply that they're RWD, as I've had 2 BMWs and an Omega that tolerated differing tyre makes front and back without noticable issues. Wifey has always stuck to the OEM Yokos, but recently I put Toyos on the back and it's awful - like the rear wheels are steering - is it just 'one of those things'? I've spent some time fiddling about with the tyre pressures, but to no avail. I can't leave it like this, so expect to replace the front with Toyos, but it would be useful to know why. It handled great with Yokos all round and it isn't even as if the front and rear wheels are the same width or diameter (2003 facelift model with OEM wheels).

[Stephster]

Could it be because the 2 has no driver aids ? I assume the BMWs and the Omega did ?
Or possibly 'coz the car is so light and therefore more touchy about the contact it has with the road surface ?

[Jon_G]

Could it be because the 2 has no driver aids ? I assume the BMWs and the Omega did ?
Or possibly 'coz the car is so light and therefore more touchy about the contact it has with the road surface ?

My Omega had traction control, but neither of the Beamers did (early '80s models). If the wheels were the same width/diameter and the WD was 50/50 then it would seem obvious that the tyres shold also 'be equal'. But this isn't the case!

[Anonymous]

The thing about mis matched tyres is more down to different tread patterns and tyre compound. It is possible to find to types of tyre a close match so not having as much of an effected. However the risk of finding out ie finding a hedge is a high price.

On a seperate note im getting v12's as t1r don't do my tyre size.

[mrzwei]

At the risk of upsetting either of the rather stroppy members, I'd like to ask if any of you actually know why these cars are so horribly touchy about mixing tyres? It isn't simply that they're RWD, as I've had 2 BMWs and an Omega that tolerated differing tyre makes front and back without noticable issues. Wifey has always stuck to the OEM Yokos, but recently I put Toyos on the back and it's awful - like the rear wheels are steering - is it just 'one of those things'? I've spent some time fiddling about with the tyre pressures, but to no avail. I can't leave it like this, so expect to replace the front with Toyos, but it would be useful to know why. It handled great with Yokos all round and it isn't even as if the front and rear wheels are the same width or diameter (2003 facelift model with OEM wheels).

I think you need to add the position of the engine to the equation. When the back goes, it goes so it's not a good idea to have dodgy tyres on the rear plus the front is light, so correct balance is important. You will stand a better chance of this with the same compound on all four corners. Otherwise, we might all just as well put anything on.

[Gif]

Fred, I'm no expert on cars even though I have driven them many more miles than I care to mention and occasionally been known to rip the odd engine out and rebuild it for fun.  What I have learned is that there are more people on here who have forgotten more about MR2s than I will ever know.  Take the advice you have been offered.  If you are going to drive the car on the road at any speed and in any kind of wet conditions then get shot of all the tyres you have and get a full set of a recommended matching make/spec and run them at the right pressures.  I run Yokos which are brilliant in the dry but based on comments on here (and having that luxury), I simply don't use the car in the wet for fear of losing it.

He has offered a couple of new Bridgestones with quite soft compound rubber. £49 each fitted! I don't remember the exact model of tyre but he swears by them.

Good Bridgestone tyres don't come at £49 each in my experience (£1000 for my BMW at the last shout) and if they are selling them for that price, they are giving them away cos they don't want them.

The back has always been well planted but if replacing the fronts exposes failings at the rear, I'll get new boots on the back as well.

Only if you can source the same matching make/spec that you have bought for the front otherwise you are back in the same boat but £90 poorer. But more to the point, exposing the failing may be the last chance you get to fit any tyres to it   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  

Money back guarantee if I don't experience an instant improvement. Can't say fairer than that.

Under the Sale of Goods Act, you can only have your money back if the goods you have been sold are not of merchantable quality.  A set of tyres that meet prevailing legislation and don't go down when you blow them up are of merchantable quality.  Instant improvement is going to be a matter of opinion and that won't stand up in any court.  It'd probably be referred to as a "trade puff" as in "these are the best thing since sliced bread" or "probably the best lager in the world".  You're not supposed to actually believe these statements, they're not contractual terms as they are not supposed to be taken literally.  I only hope I'm wrong with your bloke though.

Stop trying to avoid the matter in hand.  Buy a new set of four tyres from a recommendation by a long term member on here - and I'm not saying that's me btw  s:D s:D

[Jon_G]

At the risk of upsetting either of the rather stroppy members, I'd like to ask if any of you actually know why these cars are so horribly touchy about mixing tyres? It isn't simply that they're RWD, as I've had 2 BMWs and an Omega that tolerated differing tyre makes front and back without noticable issues. Wifey has always stuck to the OEM Yokos, but recently I put Toyos on the back and it's awful - like the rear wheels are steering - is it just 'one of those things'? I've spent some time fiddling about with the tyre pressures, but to no avail. I can't leave it like this, so expect to replace the front with Toyos, but it would be useful to know why. It handled great with Yokos all round and it isn't even as if the front and rear wheels are the same width or diameter (2003 facelift model with OEM wheels).

I think you need to add the position of the engine to the equation. When the back goes, it goes so it's not a good idea to have dodgy tyres on the rear plus the front is light, so correct balance is important. You will stand a better chance of this with the same compound on all four corners. Otherwise, we might all just as well put anything on.

I really wasn't suggesting the use of dodgy tyres! The Toyos are decent enough tyres and it's not that the back goes (or loses traction at all), but it 'feels' to be moving independantly; this is worse on dual carriageway/motorway at speed and is felt more when not cornering (constant steering correction required). I wouldn't call it dangerous, but it's unpleasant.

I am actually surprised that one can't ''just as well put anything on'', as most vehicles seem to happily tolerate this. My Honda Accord has a pair of Pirellis on the front, while the rear has one Firestone and one Goodyear - feels really tight at speed on motorways, with no odd handling issues.

I guess all cars have their little quirks and I don't suppose debating the issue here is going to change that!

[bigwillcv36]

Just a slight observation - the mr2 is a finely balanced sports car, not a Mondeo or an Accord. The designer refused to put a proper storage space in the front (even though there's room) because people might put stuff in it and upset the balance.  
Is it really that hard to understand why tyres are so important?
Really?

[Gif]

I am actually surprised that one can't ''just as well put anything on'', as most vehicles seem to happily tolerate this

And tolerate is the key word.  Well almost, tolerance is more the word.

You can screw about with anything as long as the changes you make are within the design tolerances of what you are screwing around with. The MR2 is very light and perfectly balanced due to its engine position.  Thus even minor changes are enough to give a bias to the wrong end (i.e the rear) which is then going to try to become the key determinant of direction of travel.  

If you have a BMW with half a ton of steel up front and centre, you can muck about all you want and the rear of the car has not much option but to follow the front wherever it goes.

[kentsmudger]

... it 'feels' to be moving independantly; this is worse on dual carriageway/motorway at speed and is felt more when not cornering (constant steering correction required). I wouldn't call it dangerous, but it's unpleasant....

...I guess all cars have their little quirks and I don't suppose debating the issue here is going to change that!

I noticed that most coming from a heavy-nosed diesel Golf - The front end of the 2 is a lot lighter and one can feel the front tyres in contact with the road, wriggling slightly over every bump - Relax your grip on the wheel slightly, and you may find that the car does not actually change direction, just that the steering wheel is telling you a lot about the surface - Best thing I learned about driving this car, that I was holding the wheel much too tight and not "listening" to what it was telling me.

[AckersMR2]

I noticed that most coming from a heavy-nosed diesel Golf - The front end of the 2 is a lot lighter and one can feel the front tyres in contact with the road, wriggling slightly over every bump - Relax your grip on the wheel slightly, and you may find that the car does not actually change direction, just that the steering wheel is telling you a lot about the surface - Best thing I learned about driving this car, that I was holding the wheel much too tight and not "listening" to what it was telling me.

Perhaps my original comparisons with motorbikes was so far off after all? Some of the best advice you get from race instructors is to relax your arms and hands as holding too tight fights against the suspension/tyres creating a detrimental effect. Obviously this is far more pronounced on a bike when the rider is 50%+ of the vehicle mass and a moveable mass at that, and when under acceleration the front end is particularly light (especially if it's 2ft in the air  s:lol: :lol: s:lol: ) So its not inconceivable that this could also apply to the light front end of our cars?

[Jon_G]

Just a slight observation - the mr2 is a finely balanced sports car, not a Mondeo or an Accord. The designer refused to put a proper storage space in the front (even though there's room) because people might put stuff in it and upset the balance.  
Is it really that hard to understand why tyres are so important?
Really?

Hmm... In that case, 'finely balanced' = twitchy and fussy then! And wouldn't carrying a passenger upset the balance? How about that I weigh a lot more than the owner? Not sure I fully believe the story about the lack of storage space - the spare wheel there is quite heavy and can still be removed to allow for a degree of variability (the designers could have used one of those horrible bottles of latex instead of a wheel if they had wanted).

It's not hard to understand that tyres are important (!), but why differing tyres front and back give such poor results, even though the wheels are different. Really.

And please don't be so sensitive and defensive; I'm not trashing your car, just discussing a frustrating observation that's going to cost us a replacement set of front tyres.

[Anonymous]

Just a slight observation - the mr2 is a finely balanced sports car, not a Mondeo or an Accord. The designer refused to put a proper storage space in the front (even though there's room) because people might put stuff in it and upset the balance.  
Is it really that hard to understand why tyres are so important?
Really?

Hmm... In that case, 'finely balanced' = twitchy and fussy then! And wouldn't carrying a passenger upset the balance? How about that I weigh a lot more than the owner? Not sure I fully believe the story about the lack of storage space - the spare wheel there is quite heavy and can still be removed to allow for a degree of variability (the designers could have used one of those horrible bottles of latex instead of a wheel if they had wanted).

It's not hard to understand that tyres are important (!), but why differing tyres front and back give such poor results, even though the wheels are different. Really.

And please don't be so sensitive and defensive; I'm not trashing your car, just discussing a frustrating observation that's going to cost us a replacement set of front tyres.

I guess you missed this

The thing about mis matched tyres is more down to different tread patterns and tyre compound. It is possible to find to types of tyre a close match so not having as much of an effected. However the risk of finding out ie finding a hedge is a high price.

On a seperate note I'm getting v12's as t1r don't do my tyre size.

[SteveJ]

Just a slight observation - the mr2 is a finely balanced sports car, not a Mondeo or an Accord. The designer refused to put a proper storage space in the front (even though there's room) because people might put stuff in it and upset the balance.  
Is it really that hard to understand why tyres are so important?
Really?

Hmm... In that case, 'finely balanced' = twitchy and fussy then! And wouldn't carrying a passenger upset the balance? How about that I weigh a lot more than the owner? Not sure I fully believe the story about the lack of storage space - the spare wheel there is quite heavy and can still be removed to allow for a degree of variability (the designers could have used one of those horrible bottles of latex instead of a wheel if they had wanted).

It's not hard to understand that tyres are important (!), but why differing tyres front and back give such poor results, even though the wheels are different. Really.

And please don't be so sensitive and defensive; I'm not trashing your car, just discussing a frustrating observation that's going to cost us a replacement set of front tyres.

The reason the driver has much less of an impact than the spare tyre is where you are positioned in the car - the driver is located almost in the middle of the car's C of G so has much less impact on the overall balance than the spare wheel that is hung right out over the nose.

Removing the spare without moving any other weight around (such as fitting a smaller battery up-front and removing the main one from the engine bay) almost always results in a surprising amount of understeer.

[MattPerformance]

As someone who tunes and sets up these cars on a regular basis (for road and track) let me summarise.  If you want to get the best out of an MR2 Roadster:

Tyre pressures are critical
Choice of tyres is crticial
Geo is critical

The reason the cars are so sensitive requires a very long explanation which, whilst I could give an insight to, is irrelevant.

The frustration of having to replace tyres to get the car right is almost as bad as the frustration of someone coming to me having fitted crappy tyres to their car and saying they want me to make it handle better so what suspension should they fit (albeit not as expensive!  s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )

It's a sports car and part of the problem is that the car handles so well that it's relatively easy to upset it.  

I'm not saying that the OP's issues are due exclusively to the type of tyres (since I'm not convinced it's not one of the things that have apparently already been ruled out - hardware, geo, tyre pressures...) but if your tyres need replacing...  

All other things being equal, put good quality matched tyres on it and it will do what it was designed to do, in all weathers.

[Jon_G]

Just a slight observation - the mr2 is a finely balanced sports car, not a Mondeo or an Accord. The designer refused to put a proper storage space in the front (even though there's room) because people might put stuff in it and upset the balance.  
Is it really that hard to understand why tyres are so important?
Really?

Hmm... In that case, 'finely balanced' = twitchy and fussy then! And wouldn't carrying a passenger upset the balance? How about that I weigh a lot more than the owner? Not sure I fully believe the story about the lack of storage space - the spare wheel there is quite heavy and can still be removed to allow for a degree of variability (the designers could have used one of those horrible bottles of latex instead of a wheel if they had wanted).

It's not hard to understand that tyres are important (!), but why differing tyres front and back give such poor results, even though the wheels are different. Really.

And please don't be so sensitive and defensive; I'm not trashing your car, just discussing a frustrating observation that's going to cost us a replacement set of front tyres.

I guess you missed this

The thing about mis matched tyres is more down to different tread patterns and tyre compound. It is possible to find to types of tyre a close match so not having as much of an effected. However the risk of finding out ie finding a hedge is a high price.

On a seperate note I'm getting v12's as t1r don't do my tyre size.

No, I saw it. I'm not sure that the current condition is so bad that "finding a hedge" is a concern (there's no loss of grip) and it can be thrown round country lanes no problem, but it's no longer relaxing to drive at speed. Obviously you're right about different tread patterns and tyre compound causing the problem (the problem only began when the tyres were replaced, so what else could it be?), but I continue to be surprised at this sensitivity!

It is clearly obvious that the overwhelming opinion within this forum is that all tyres must be the same type and manufacturer and I don't wish to disagree. I was a little disappointed when first reading this thread that there was/is a worrying tone of 'how dare you not believe what we're telling you' given to the OP without any proper analysis of the issue, but I realise that there probably is no single reason for this and - as I said earlier - it is a quirk of the vehicle design and implementation.

[Jon_G]

As someone who tunes and sets up these cars on a regular basis (for road and track) let me summarise.  If you want to get the best out of an MR2 Roadster:

Tyre pressures are critical
Choice of tyres is crticial
Geo is critical

The reason the cars are so sensitive requires a very long explanation which, whilst I could give an insight to, is irrelevant.

The frustration of having to replace tyres to get the car right is almost as bad as the frustration of someone coming to me having fitted crappy tyres to their car and saying they want me to make it handle better so what suspension should they fit (albeit not as expensive!  s:wink: :wink: s:wink: )

It's a sports car and part of the problem is that the car handles so well that it's relatively easy to upset it.  

I'm not saying that the OP's issues are due exclusively to the type of tyres (since I'm not convinced it's not one of the things that have apparently already been ruled out - hardware, geo, tyre pressures...) but if your tyres need replacing...  

All other things being equal, put good quality matched tyres on it and it will do what it was designed to do, in all weathers.

You might think it's irrelevant, but an explanation is what I've been hoping for! Your insight would be gratefully received, by me and - I would have thought - anyone with an interest in this issue

[MattPerformance]

Academic would have been a better choice of word rather than irrelevant.

haven't got time to go into the real detail but as far as the tyres are concerned it's a matter of design, construction, load rating and quality. Most manufacturer's have tyres 'tuned' to ssuit the applicatuin of a specific car (911 is a well-known example due to its very heady rear axle loads). This ensures that the tyre responds to the dynamic forces accoring to the loads placed on it according to the weight and weight distribution of the car.  Therefore there is an ideal set of characteristics for a tyre in a given application. The further away from that you are, the worse the tyre will perform. The problem with cheap tyres is that their engineering is lacking and their 'sweet spot' is miniscule (hence whey some are decent in the dry by down right terrible in the wet etc) as opposed to a quality tyre has a much larger one. The chances of a quality tyre having a big enough sweet spot to cover the needs of an MR2 is good as opposed to a cheap tyre.
Part of the MR2 needs is to operate well at lower pressure (26psi) and a lot of tyres don't lend themselves to operating well at those kinds of pressures.

[AckersMR2]

I was a little disappointed when first reading this thread that there was/is a worrying tone of 'how dare you not believe what we're telling you' given to the OP without any proper analysis of the issue...

I agree with you there Jon and in a round about way I said much the same as you. There are good ways and bad ways to offer advice and I think both examples have been displayed here, but to be fair the MODS have spotted that and righty stamped their authority on it too and apologised so I think that draws a line under it.

Its up to Fred to digest what is being advised here and make his own decision on what actions to take and in what order, maybe he'll find what he does suits him, maybe he won't and he'll look back through this to work out his next step? I think we'll just have to wait and see...........

[Wabbitkilla]

Pretty much why Pirelli's were always good on my FWD cars, but absolutely rubbish on lighter cars.
They needed the weight of the car pushing them into the road to ensure they get into the sweet spot of temperature and tyre pressure.

I don't think anyone thought "how dare you disbelieve", i think from reading the responses people were more in the frame of mind "we're offering you advice borne on the experience of many members, many miles, and many years, we're just confused why you would choose to ignore that".

At the end of the day a club is made up by many people in a community. There are those of us about who have had the cars a long time and simply love the feeling we get from driving them. I'm sure many are motivated toward advising and encouraging a new member in a direction that will allow them to enjoy the car as much as we do. We all started at point-zero, and maybe that gets forgotten sometimes ... hell I didn't realise the garage had over-inflated my tyres when i first got it and did a couple of 180's before figuring it out. I for one would rather help a new member from hitting the hedgerows or finding the ditches from what I've learned over my 5 years of ownership and almost 100K in the MR2.

It does however make me stop and reconsider when people try to compare FWD or Front engined RWD cars when talking about the dynamics of suspension, tyres, and chassis dynamics. There simply is no comparrison to a mid-engined rwd car than another mid-engined rwd car. If you talked about a Lotus, or a VX220 then you'd be closer to comparison. And yes even motorcycles share some common behaviours with the MR2. I never mixed makes of tyres on the bikes, and strangely always had fatter rubber on the back than the front.   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Fred ... is going in the right direction, sorting the Geo, and hopefully looking at getting some new tyres. People will recommend what they find more suitable to their driving style. The tyre review thread gives good opinions on the different tyres available, it's there to be used and you can make up your own mind what suits you. Human nature being what it is though, if you complain about handling when you have the wrong sizes, mixed manufacturer/models, no-names fitted and then have an accident then people will shrug their shoulders and say "we tried to help you".

Sorry Fred we've become a bit diverted there and you really don't deserve the attention you've received, all I can leave you with is we will always be here to advise and encourage you in ways to enjoy your car. Meeting up with other members is a great way of finding what works and what doesn't ... and unfortunately be tempted to spend yet more money   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[markiii]

90% of the recent problems seen on here are because the previous owners are **** clueless.


Rob.

rob thats worthy of a sig quote    s:bowdown: :bowdown: s:bowdown:

[AckersMR2]

There simply is no comparrison to a mid-engined rwd car than another mid-engined rwd car.

I think maybe us newbie's forget that sometimes and think of it just as a Toyota   s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  and just assume whatever we throw on it will work just fine   s:? :? s:?  
I can't imagine this same conversation taking place on say a Ferrari 360 forum and yet the dynamics of the two cars are essentially the same?

I never mixed makes of tyres on the bikes, and strangely always had fatter rubber on the back than the front.   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

s:lol: :lol: s:lol: