problems after K&N induction install?

[porscheguy944]

This is what the spark plugs looked like while running poorly.
I removed the K&N cold air kit and put the original intake system back on today.
still ran very poorly
I bought a new MAF sensor and ran better then poorly again after 5 minutes?
fault code p0125?

[porscheguy944]

Last night I changed the engine temp sensor The one the computer see's ( not the one in the MAF ) still has same issue / then changed all four coil on plug no change / so now going to change the TPS throttle position sensor.
If this does not work??


I have a 2000 MR2 Spyder with the following MODS:
OBX stainless steel four into one header
OBX stainless steel cat eliminator pipe with three o2 bungs
Stainless o2 cheater bung / emlulator for after the cat o2 sensor (bank 2 sensor 2)?
CHE lotus twin tip stainless steel muffler
K&N cold air induction kits
drilled and slotted disc's all a round with ceramic pads

[ChrisGB]

Right, the plot thickens. The OBX manifold seems to have the two oxygen sensors in the combined gas stream. This means that the sensors for bank 1 and 2 will both be providing readings to their respective halves of the ECU. This means that under certain running conditions, one bank will be trying to trim fuel one way and in response to this, the other will have to adjust the fuel trim the other way to get the value to target. The clue that this is the case is in the plug photos (two rich and two lean) and having looked at how the sensors are arranged in the manifold.

Quite possible that when the K&N went on, the fuel trims tried to compensate for airflow change in closed loop mode and got out of balance. Luck only that it ever ran right with that manifold layout IMO. You may be able to fix it using a sensor combiner circuit from PPE.

There may be other issues too, but if you are running two O2 sensors in one gas stream, you need to fix that first.

Chris

[Wabbitkilla]

From experience with Turbo kits you can't put both top end O2 sensors in the same combined pipe ... it really messes with the mixture and causes the imbalance between the banks of cylinders. The simplest way to over come this is to remove one of the sensors and common the sensor feed in the ecu loom, also fit a resistor in place of the heater circuit. That should help things settle down nicely.

[porscheguy944]

I tried calling PPE to get a o2 emultor from them but they said they would not sell me one with out proof of purchase of thier header system and pipe ( cat eliminator ) test pipe.
I have extra o2 extention ( spark plug non foulers ) maybe if I put one in one of the positions closest to the cylinder head it will change the signal from that o2 sensor enough to fool the ecu?
I just bought a  GREDDY  E-MANAGE ULTIMATE with a GReddy TY-14 Plug & Play Harness Emanage Ultimate Toyota MRS MR2 Spyder ZZW30 from ebay and will install it when it arrives in the next week or so.
I hope this ends up being the fix for all future issuses related to the ECU.
Here is a picture of how the o2 bungs are located in the forward end of the cat test / eliminator pipe.

This is the OBX Header note the long exstentions need for the reach to the relocated o2 sensors.

[porscheguy944]

Here is a better view of the header to cat pipe showing the o2 sensor locations in the forward end right after the flange.

[porscheguy944]

From experience with Turbo kits you can't put both top end O2 sensors in the same combined pipe ... it really messes with the mixture and causes the imbalance between the banks of cylinders.

The simplest way to over come this is to remove one of the sensors

How do I do this?just by cutting the wires and splicing them together?

  common the sensor feed in the ecu loom (at the box???)or right where they come out of the o2 sensors.
This would be easy as the two already have wiring extensions added to them to reach the new locations.

Do you mean tie the two sets of wires together?,

also fit a resistor in place of the heater circuit. what size resister and where to place it at? in between the black leads?

I have herd to fool the ECU you need a number generator cuircuit and then a resister seperately ?

If you have a way to better exsplain this to me it would be apreciated very much!
That should help things settle down nicely.

[porscheguy944]

Right, the plot thickens. The OBX manifold seems to have the two oxygen sensors in the combined gas stream. This means that the sensors for bank 1 and 2 will both be providing readings to their respective halves of the ECU. This means that under certain running conditions, one bank will be trying to trim fuel one way and in response to this, the other will have to adjust the fuel trim the other way to get the value to target. The clue that this is the case is in the plug photos (two rich and two lean) and having looked at how the sensors are arranged in the manifold.

Quite possible that when the K&N went on, the fuel trims tried to compensate for airflow change in closed loop mode and got out of balance. Luck only that it ever ran right with that manifold layout IMO. You may be able to fix it using a sensor combiner circuit from PPE.

There may be other issues too, but if you are running two O2 sensors in one gas stream, you need to fix that first.

Chris

Thank You I now have an Idea as to how to fix this tonigh when I get home from work at midnight!
I will install a semi closed o2 sensor emulator so the o2 sensor will see a differace between banks / even thought there is only one bank................4cyl logic???

[Wabbitkilla]

You are going to blow the engine at this rate, you need to common the o2 sensors. If you just remove one from the gas, or even change how.much gas it's seeing then one bank will riches up even more, and the result will result in damage to the whole engine.



sent from a planet somewhere nearby

[porscheguy944]

So if I tie the two blue wires and the two white wires. Together from both the left and right o2 sensors they will be commoned and see only one set of values
Coming off of one referance soarce o2 sensor and even out the fuel curve

[Wabbitkilla]

Sorry, I had a diagram and was trying to find it.

If you get a multi-meter and check the blue & white wires you will find on is an earth and the other is signal. You need to cut these to isolate the sensor and common the signal from the remaining working sensor to the signal wire cut going back to the ecu. You can leave the black heater circuit wires alone as these will provide continuity for the ecu to see the heater circuit is ok.

Essentially what you achieve is one o2 sensor declaring mixture for both banks. It's something quite a few turbo drivers have had to do.

If I turn up info about which wire is which I'll post up, but in the meantime if someone else has the info to hand.....

You can also pm Spit, Steve--m-uk, and Aaronjb about it as they all have experience of this modification. Though it's obviously handy just to do this on the boomslang harness for the e-manage.

sent from a planet somewhere nearby

[porscheguy944]

Came home tonight and cut the bank one sensor one blue and white leads ....leaving the sensor open / black wires intact for heater cuircut
 then spilced the blue and white into the bank one sensor two leads....
not the end from the sensor but the end from the plug going to the ecu
went for a test drive and as soon as up to temp same as before booooogggging bad..................?

I am seeing codes P0125 P0135 P0141 P0155 same as before??

Here is a picture of the o2 simulator I am running on the after cat o2 sensor ? The ones on the left are satainless steel one installed after cat.The others on the right are spark plug non foulers modified by drilling out end in one of them and then stacking two together to make one fooler.







The first set are ones I made up of two spark plug non foulers drill upper ones out and then threaded in o2 sensor
Decided I did not want corrosion to set up found a guy makes them out of 304 stainless steel bought 3 and installed one after cat and removed the one I had made

[porscheguy944]

Is there such a thing as a o2 heater fuse?
*
If so where is it located?
*
AMPS?
*
 and can it be replaced?
*
I am seeing faults on all three heaters?
*
even the brand new one I just installed?
*
On all banks and getting the closed loop temp low fault too?
*
I do not know if this is related to a TPS sensor fualt or not?Could this be a related issue?For the drivability issue?BOG

[porscheguy944]

I jst found this through google search
P0121 - Throttle Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit Range/Performance Problem
OBD-II Trouble Code Technical DescriptionThrottle Position Sensor/Switch A Circuit Range/Performance Problem

What does that mean?The Throttle position sensor is a potentiometer that measures the amount of throttle opening. As the throttle is opened, the reading (measured in volts) goes up. The powertrain control module (PCM) supplies a 5 Volt reference signal to the throttle position sensor (TPS) and usually a ground also. A general measurement is: at idle = .5 Volts; full throttle = 4.5 Volts. If the PCM detects that the throttle angle is greater or less than it should be for a specific RPM, it will set this code.

Potential SymptomsSymptoms of a P0121 trouble code could include:

Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) illumination (Check Engine Light or Service Engine Soon light)
Intermittent stumble on acceleration or deceleration
Blows black smoke on acceleration
No start
CausesA code P0121 may mean that one or more of the following has happened:

TPS has intermittent open or short internally
Harness is rubbing and causing an open or short in the wiring
Bad connection at the TPS
Bad PCM (less likely)
Water or corrosion in connector or sensor
Possible Solutions1. If you have access to a scan tool, see what the idle and WOT (wide open throttle) readings are for the TPS. Check if they're close to the specifications mentioned above. If not, then replace the TPS and re-check.

2. Check for an intermittent open or short in the TPS signal. To do that, you can't use a scan tool. You'll need an oscilliscope. The reason is because scan tools take samplings of many different readings over just one or two data lines and can miss an intermittent drop out. Hook up your oscilliscope and watch the signal. It should sweep up and down smoothly with no drop outs or spikes.

3. If no problems were noticed, perform a wiggle test. Do this by wiggling the connector and harness while watching the pattern. Does it drop out? If so, replace TPS and re-check.

4. If you have no TPS signal, check for 5 Volt reference at the connector. If it's present, check the ground circuit for open or shorts.

5. Make sure the signal circuit isn't 12V. It should never have battery voltage. If it does, trace circuit for short to voltage and repair.

6. Look for any water in the connector and replace TPS as necessary.

Other TPS sensor and circuit related DTCs: P0120, P0122, P0123, P0124
? sounds relevent to my issues does it not?

[porscheguy944]

Dropped car at dealer today and they said no signal from o2 sensor1 bank 1 the one I cut the leads from and spliced into bank 2 sensor 1?
Is it possible the length of wire caused a loss of signal?
Or is the new denso sensor is bad?
going to dealer in AM to go over this with them and have new sensor to install and splice together.

Read in forum for E-Manage that if you unplug all sensors the ecu will go off of MAF for fuel scehdualing? limp home MODE

Need some feed back here on this as dealer is unfamillier with modded set ups.

[Wabbitkilla]

You're supposed to splice bank1 sensor 1 with bank2 sensor 1.

[porscheguy944]

If this is correct it is the way I did it.Left to right spliced together.
 m http://www.mr2roc.org/Repository/misc/referencelib ... sorloc.jpg m

[Wabbitkilla]

Sorry, I misread what you posted further up!   s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  

Leave the black wires along, and you splice the white and blue back towards the back towards the ecu.
Some people have actually spliced the signal wire only and left the unused o2 sensor hanging in mid air with the wires uncut.
We recently found one car that didn't like that though.

Have you tried pm'ing the guys I suggested, as they have actually done it on their cars and probably can give you the exact details?

[porscheguy944]

I cut off the wires from bank 2 sensor 1 from the end closest to the sensor
the blue and the white wires then added a pigtail (spare wire for each ) and then twisted them to the leads coming from bank 1 sensor 1 to each of the connectors.For each sensor to the ECU.Now only one signal soarce

[Wabbitkilla]

I'm not sure twisting is going to be good, plus the wires are terrible to solder.
Crimping is usually the best way to deal with them.
Length of wire isn't really an issue so you can stop worrying about that.

[porscheguy944]

I used crimps and yes they just stink to solder together............... so length is not the issue...............still have no idea why no signal?.............must be a bad sensor?? or is there a fuse for that ecu cuircut?

[Wabbitkilla]

Wither tied together you are Remington a single sensor feeding both banks in the ecu. So if you have a signal fir one it should show the sane for the other.

Just to be clear, you did common the wires back to the ecu, and not the wires down ti the sensors?

sent from a planet somewhere nearby

[porscheguy944]

made a T in the signal sensor wire
 3 to 1
so one split into two out puts
one for each plug
with just the black wires still coming out of the one sensor to it's original plug
and the leads from that plug white and blue going over to the output leads from the other sensor feeding the second sensors input

[Wabbitkilla]

So you have wired the plug for b2s1 to the wires on b1s1 and the dealer says you have lost the feed from b1s1. That one should be guaranteed as you haven't cut it. You might just have a loose wire.

Pull them apart and use a meter to identify the earth, either blue or white. Reconnect the earth to the original sensor and splice the signal wire to b1s1 signal wire.

If you are going to do these things I recommend you have an obd2 reader which can show live sensor data and a multimeter, they're hugely helpful in these situations.  s;-) ;-) s;-)

I'm nit surprised the dealer is struggling, it's not really something they will come across regularly.

Looking at the obx header on eBay, it looks like a shiny duplicate of the ppe header. They shouldn't be selling it without advisories about the o2 sensors, ad they have the potential to grenade engines.
sent from a planet somewhere nearby

[porscheguy944]

I had to add a length of wire to all forward of the cat sensors to reach the bungs on the test pipe.
I did solder the connections on the new leads so no chance of them not being connected.
I will check them with the dealers scanner tomorrow ..............thats the reason for going to the dealer............I will also have them check the TPS signal second reason for going to the dealer.................I will if nothing else disconnect all leads to see effect...................I am going to have them replace TPS either way so as to not have a issue later with it as long as it is up there for the scans................I am recieving my E-Manage Ultama tomorrow but will be waiting for the harness from AU to come or else I could do the same thing with it's software..................but having a functional car would make life easier when learning this new bit of equipement.
Does anyone know what the pin jumper set up shopuld be on the E-Manage for our cars?
I would like to get this part of the set up done while waiting for the harness to come.