SMT - No reverse gear [Solved]

[ZeroQI]

Hi all, I am french, and I live in Ireland, and i recently purchased a 2003 MR-S with SMT 6 gears sable color jap).

So far i reseated the neutral and the two reverse switches and the design seem to keep the water away (seal in the connector head, nice air-tight feeling when you remove it), so either it's the switches, the ECU, TCU, gearbox...

Am at loss on what to do from there, so i have compiled a list of everything i have found in regards to "no reverse beep".
I have still some outstanding questions or precision, so please answer and i would edit this post again as a keepsake for future generations:
   . Any OBDII reader that can read JBOD/MR-s error codes ? Anybody has one in ireland that can read MR-s ECU codes ?
   . Any way to make a ELM327 cheap bluetooth dongle able to read MR-S ECU codes? Does it access MR2 spyder (UK/US) ECU codes?
   . Did i miss something in the reasoning ? Could it be the actuator switch ? (somebody has the part #?)

Technical information:
===================
   SMT - Sequential Manual Transmission
   TCU - Transmission Control Unit:   Trans Computer (Brains, NEVER go bad) but are always replaced!!!
   HPU - Hydraulic Power Unit:   The 'Push' behind everything, starts for 25s when you open driver's door
   GSA - Gear Shift Assembly:      Thing that acts like a human and does the Shifting.

On the Top of the Transmission (under the air box) are three Switches (1 neutral, two backup):
   Neutral Switch:      Black   That Lets the SMT know when it has found reverse
   Backup switch 1:   White   For SMT Confirmation that it has Found Reverse
   Backup Switch 2:   Grey   For the Back-up lights

Action plan
==========
   . Check the ECU error code. I managed to use a "diag my toyota" android app with an ELS327 bluetooth dongle, but can not spot the reverse sensors in the PIDD list (although some usefull ones in there), and cannot read the error codes (maybe because it's a jap one, it may use JOBD). Anybody with proper Obdii reader in ireland welcome

   . CHECK THE FLUID. Should take no more than 20-30s for the pump to stop after opening driver door. mine is 23 to 25, so seem good
     The vehicle Air cleaner box must be removed to access the fluid reservoir that is protected by a plastic cover
     [http://www.ariclim.com/files/mr2spyder/SMT.pdf p18]

   . RELEARN ON THE SENSORS
     Check your fluid first, reverse is the first to start showing problems when the fluid starts getting low (don't know exactly why, maybe takes more fluid for the push).
   After that I would take it to get a full relearn, the select sensor may be starting to go out of it's previous range and that would should fix that.
   [http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?52334-2002-MR2-Spyder-Intermittent-reverse-issue-(SMT) post dated 06-12-2012, 10:17 AM]

   The procedure is as follows:
   1. Warm up your car, until coolant temp guage is horizontal
   2. On a straight stretch of road, put car into 1st and start moving
   3. At an appropriate point, shift directly from 1st into 3rd
   4. On 3rd, rev engine to over 3000rpm, then lift off throttle. Let car coast and rpm drop (without applying breaks) to below 3000rpm and downshift into
2nd. Again, let car coast in 2nd until rpm below 2000rpm.
   5. Apply break and stop car.
   6. Repeat steps 1 through 5 three times.
   [http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?27767-Aussie-with-SMT-troubles&highlight=relearning%20procedure]

   . CHANGE THE SENSORS 84210-12040 (same for both parts, cost of $38.21)
    Used a 1 and 1/8 inch deep socket and use a long extension to reach down to the part to be changed
    It is easy to reach once the airbox is removed from near the battery location.
    [http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?52334-2002-MR2-Spyder-Intermittent-reverse-issue-(SMT) post dated 06-12-2012, 10:17 AM]

   . Check Shift Stroke Sensor Malfunction [Error P1870] 200$+, better not be that...
    m http://www.toyotaoempartsworld.com/part ... eid=215233 m
   [http://www.justanswer.com/uploads/skyvisions/2008-06-01_181052_02_spider2.pdf]
   [http://www.mr2roc.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31025&hilit]

Details
======
   . Used to not go into reverse if cold, could be consistent with low oil level
   . After some time, would not go in reverse when moderately warm, then would only go in reverse when warm,
  .  Then acting up needing to go twice in reverse to do (similar symptom as now), to finally not at all
   . Since the Reverse LED come on, the Shift lever SW4 seem to work and I can hear the gear trying to engage, the ECU sent the signal to the shift solenoid (clutch depressed since coming from neutral)
   . put into neutral, can push the car. Let it die in reverse, cannot. conclusion: gearbox is ok. Since a smt can switch gears with dead clutch, clutch is not causing the issue...

   . If the Back Up Lights are Going On, then it's likely the Transmission is in Reverse, but the SMT Back up Switch ( Switch two ).. is Not Making Contact..  The Engine it getting told to Turn off (after 5 seconds) if the SMT can't find the Gear, so if you select Neutral Before it Dies.. all is Well..

   . No reverse light - If the back Up Lites are not going on, then the Tranny is not confirming reverse, and the TCU will get mad and Ignore the Engine ECU asking for Information..
   Then you get the 1646/1647 Code.. so it not a Problem with the ECU/TCU, they are just Ignoring each other.. It's actually a Software Bug that should have been fixed by Toyota..   because the Dealers see the 1646/47 and say the ECU/TCU's are bad..  
   [http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?52334-2002-MR2-Spyder-Intermittent-reverse-issue-(SMT) post dated 06-12-2012, 11:40 AM]
  . SMT will still shift with a bad clutch

Links:
=====
   .  m http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread ... e-reed!!!! m !
   .  m http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread ... issue-(SMT m )
  .   m http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread ... hlight=860 m
   .  m http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread ... -I-did-it. m .
   .  m http://spyderchat.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?30-SMT m
   .  m http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread ... to-reverse m

   .  m http://www.gearbox.ie/about.asp m  accept doing reparis on SMTs apparently

Parts:
======
2 x Reverse light switch "84210-12040" or compatible
   .  m http://www.ebay.ie/itm/NEW-REVERSE-LIGH ... 4439wt_954 m

SMT Fluid 1L "08886-02206" Sequential Manual Transmission Fluid
   .  m http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004SL889 ... mdp_mobile m
   .  m http://www.halfords.ie/webapp/wcs/store ... yId_212351 m
   . Read somewhere "The SMT fluid is dot 3 with about a teaspoon of castor oil per liter. No other additives" but Dot4 has been confimed to work ok, to check in the long run if that is the case.

   . Actuator switch - No info for now

[Anonymous]

Has the smt fluid ever been changed.

[ZeroQI]

Hi, called previous owner and the SMT fluid was topped up by toyota (by 2mm i was told) last year. From what i read, the fluid never has to be changed...
It was tope up and not replaced so it seems. What is your opinion on that ? could it affect the reverse in that way ?

[Anonymous]

Was thinking if it were in terms a manual box and sometimes dirty old fluid can make gear shifting harder.

[ZeroQI]

Thans for replying that promptly. Gears 1 to 6 pass really smoothly, so it seem to be a SMT issue. after calling previous owner, it seems sometimes starting the motor with the door open confuse the ECU as it get some grounding from the door contact... He got that a couple times but could reset each time, so will try to reset things to confirm...

***Edit1*** Apparently a diag code can be read
 l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=30213&p=370531#p370060 l  /  m http://codes.rennacs.com/plugins/Toyota ... Avalon.php m
Tried on my SMT, didn't work

[ZeroQI]

Received one reverse sensor instead of two...
Received the "2012 Mini Vci For Toyota TIS OEM Techstream V7.10.030 Single Cable(since 1996 )" item i bought on ebay. can't really get it to communicate with the MR-s
Is european techstream compatible with MR-S jap OBDII ? Or i have to use it in jap mode ?
Also checked again and clutch not on when putting in reverse, so can't be sure the reverse gear engage ok... it's just fixed amber led and no beep, no reverse light...
How to read OBDII on a MR-s (jap) ? anybody succeeded

[woolleydick]

Hi - a little off topic but as you seem to have done a lot of research you might be able to help - I am having problems with my SMT - where on the car are the ECU and TCU located?

[onion86]

Can't be much help with the SMT problem I'm afraid but just to let you know you can't use a ODBII reader on a J-Spec I'm afraid  l viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25259 l

[ZeroQI]

hummm... WRONG!!!!!! I have a japanese MR-S SMT 6 speed from 2003, and can communicate with the ECU fully
I did try a a bluetooth ELM327 i had and it could connect but didn't show any error codes (just could display some dials)

I have used TechStream 7.12.000 in Euro mode (no serial to enter!!!) under an XP virtual machine (tried miniXP crippled version but didn't work, use standard xp) through VMware player (4GB partition 256mb ram), bridged network mode to be able to download java. I wasn't sure subsequent versions would support the usb adapter and couldn't find the latest version anyway (this one from 2012)... Here is the one i purchased:

 m http://www.ebay.ie/itm/280948418923?ssP ... 4636wt_919 m
Description: 2012 Mini Vci For Toyota TIS OEM Techstream V7.10.030 Single Cable(since 1996 )
Cost:£18.89 free shipping AND tracking number (2-3 week delivery)
Seller:likebuyshop2010

It detected the model: ZZW / 1FE / -208 and show all error codes o/
I have errors: p1646 p1647 p0812

SMT Specific P1646/1647 No communication between ECM and and transmission ECU
P0812 Reverse gear – input circuit malfunction Wiring, poor connection, ECM/TCM
when using the tests for the speed indicator the reverse is not shown. Gear test show reverse OK and reverse captors were both on in the freeze frame

According  m http://www.project-mr2.nl/Manuals/Manua ... ission.pdf m  , Error P0812 seem to be caused by one or more of:
   . Shift stroke sensor
   . Select Stroke Sensor
   . Backup light Switch 1
   . Backup light Switch 2
   . Open or short in Reverse Switch circuit
   . Transmission Control ECU
   . Open or short in Shift Stroke Sensor circuit
   . Open or short in Select Stroke Sensor circuit
   . GSA
   . Shift and Select lever shaft

Will check freeze frames and test one by one the sensors

[Anonymous]

Its odbii readers can now in most cases do both but it needs to be in jap version, so read the specs carefully before purchasing.

[ZeroQI]

The cable allow you with Techstream to test the gearbox (i know it work mechanically now and both reverse sensors seem ok) and all sensors, even fake their reading for tests.... Well 30 quids well spend for me  s:D s:D  and I am gaining more insight on proper T/S method...

To solve SMT issues:
   . you need to read the DTC error codes. Would recommend my cable BUT work under XP only (work under virtual machine or xp mode) while 100€ mangoose seem to work under win 7 x64 [to verify however]
   . You read in the repair guide the error and T/S recommended, for exemple:
        - P1881 Reverse switch malfunction -  m http://www.justanswer.com/uploads/skyvi ... pider1.pdf m
        - P1870 Shift Stroke Sensor Malfunction -  m http://www.justanswer.com/uploads/skyvi ... pider2.pdf m
        - P0120 Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit (SMT) -  m http://users.skynet.be/MRS/MR/guide/Dia ... /DI-56.pdf m

Somebody got the repair manual with the SMT part ? i got a repair manual but the SMT part is missing....
I Need the same page as above for the P0812 DTC code for 2003 MR-s/MR2 spyder

They are part of repair manual RM900U (2002)or 2003 ref (RM967U) [partially present here:  m http://users.skynet.be/MRS/MR/manrep03.htm m ]

Other links:
show select stroke sensor with specs and values to check for:    m http://www.justanswer.com/uploads/skyvi ... pider3.pdf m
P0812 for corolla  m http://toyota-corolla.ru/rm04f1ru/repai ... i009x.html m
P0812 for honda civic 2006  m http://civic.hondafitjazz.com/A00/HTML/ ... AAT00.html m

[ZeroQI]

According  m http://toyota-corolla.ru/rm04f1ru/repai ... i009x.html m , (will give rough idea of the logic) As one judgment method, the TCM uses the back up light switch signal indicating whether the gear is in reverse or not. Receiving the signals from the back up light switch assembly and the shift and select stroke sensors, the TCM detects that the transaxle gear is in reverse. If the signal from the back up light switch assembly does not match with the signal from the shift and select stroke sensors, the TCM sets the DTC.

I did notice than after putting reverse, keeping rpm over 1000 it doesn't shut down, so it is a security shutdown.
According  m http://www.project-mr2.nl/Manuals/Manua ... ission.pdf m  , Error P0812 seem to be caused by one or more of:
   . Shift Stroke sensor
   . Open or short in  Shift  Stroke sensor circuit  m http://www.justanswer.com/uploads/skyvi ... pider2.pdf m
   . Select Stroke Sensor
   . Open or short in Select Stroke Sensor circuit
   . Backup light Switch 1 and 2  m http://www.justanswer.com/uploads/skyvi ... pider1.pdf m
      Hot to change them:  m http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/kb.php?mode=article&k=86 m
   . Open or short in Reverse Switch circuit  m http://users.skynet.be/MRS/MR/guide/Dia ... DI-393.pdf m
   . Shift and Select lever shaft
   . Transmission Control ECU
   . GSA

After research i need from 2003 mr2 repair guide (RM967U) the diagnostic page DI_278 (DTC P0812) as mentionned in smt pdf  m http://www.ariclim.com/files/mr2spyder/SMT.pdf.. m .

Anybody has a copy ?  have the similar one for corolla but doesn't help:  m http://84.240.30.143/soft/auto/corolla/ ... upp365.pdf m

[ZeroQI]

SO to troubleshoot SMT:
   . OBDII cable compatible with techstream (mangoose is certified b toyota https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPortal/staticcontent/en/techinfo/html/prelogin/docs/tsliteinstalltinfo.pdf, but found cheaper compatible clone above, did install under 512mb ram 6gb disk VMware player VM running xp 32 bits)
   . Get DTC code, forget p1646 p1647 if another code is present, as it is the auto shutdown (although above 1000rpm, it doesn't shut down for me, saw that value in another doc)
   . Search online dor the DTC code toyota page or go to  m http://www.toyota-tech.eu m  you can pay 3 euros and get access for an hour to the repair manual with the SMT part...

So for me P0812 = reverse switch circuit, select sensor and stroke sensor giving mismatching gear info...
Need to find in techstream reading for the backup light switches and shift+select stroke sensors and if reverse switches don't work which fuse on passenger side is responsible... Keep tuned...

[ZeroQI]

update: techstream seem to think the reverse captor signal is always open... curent comes up to the 7.5A Gauge fuse

[ZeroQI]

Solved!!!

When it worked: there is the green gear light flashing and reversing beep there every second on then off about...
Pattern: use to only go in reverse when warm, then sometime even warm had to engage reverse couple times, then stopped alltogether
Bug: Got green fixed gear led, no reverse beep, no shutdown if motor above 1200rpm so it was an automatic shutdown

Troubleshooting:
===============
Techstream indicates I had errors: p1646 p1647 (motor) and p0812 (SMT), that no reverse signal arrives and that reverse is in and not in between gear
   . P0812 point to reverse sensors, that tell the tcu to activate the lights...  and shutdown with the two error code below
   . p1646 p1647 is the auto motor shutdown
Checked the passenger Gauge fuse (situated after IG1 relay on the electric schematics and it was good and there was voltage between it and the chassis ground.
Changed the two reversing sensors like in http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/kb.php?mode=article&k=86 (Deep socket 27mm got one with 1/2 inch hole [equivalent to 1 and 1/8 apparently], 8 euros in hardware shop, try for one that can accept the height of the sensor's connector) and it works no problem. You kinda have to remove the battery then then air filter box to have access.

Root-cause analysis:
=================
   . Because they are switches they are not meant to give values in ohms different form 0 when actioned. In the schematics they are in parallel so it explains two need replacement when you have an issue. if all gears ok the neutral switch is ok
   . When testing the bad switches, got 13 to 40 ohms randomly on one, more than 1000 ohm, or nothing randomly on the other...  seem like the oil got in and they don't conduct 100% anymore but changing values explain why it sometimes work: at high temperature, the oil goes out of the switch as it is more fluid.

Parts needed:
============

Description: 2012 Mini Vci For Toyota TIS OEM Techstream V7.10.030 Single Cable(since 1996 )
Cost:£18.89 free shipping AND tracking number (2-3 week delivery)
Seller:likebuyshop2010
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/280948418923?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_4636wt_919

Description: 2 x Reverse light switch "84210-12040" or compatible
Cost: GBP 30.50 with shipping
Seller: tvrparts200
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/NEW-REVERSE-LIGHT-SWITCH-TOYOTA-Runner-Avensis-Camry-Carina-Celica-Corolla-/251117245068?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3a77c1128c#ht_4487wt_954

http://www.toyota-tech.eu register for free then pay 3 euros and get access for an hour to the repair manual with the SMT part..

[mrzwei]

Top job.
You do of course realise that you are now the expert   s:D s:D

[Steve Green]

Excellent.
Job well done.

[Russel Nash]

I purchased the 30 quid techstream software and cables and all loaded up easy enough but on trying to register the software, I am being asked to enter the 'Key'. Does anyone know how this is obtained? I have registered with toyota.eh but not progressed further than the online user payment page as I don't actually need to use it yet to diagnose a problem.
 Also can someone tell me the normal procedure for using the system ie do I always need to use toyota online when using techstream?
I don't have any problems with my car at present, I simply did a search for techstream and this thread popped up. Any info greatly received.
Excellent reading on the above thread btw!

[ZeroQI]

the license key depends on the region you selected during the install. you software is likely to be cracked, but you can download it on tpb for exemple. that's what i did. thanks for the compliment, i wanted to document since nobody wanted to work on SMT and it had bad reputation, while with the cable and toyota acess it's so easy...