New toy, new problems!

[wallzaveerz]

Hi all,  newbie to the forum and to roadster ownership, only issue is I think I've bought a bit of a pup.

I went looking at the car early last week at a large used car dealers,  2001 model, 83000 miles on the clock.  When I got there the battery was flat and they had to jump start it.  In hindsight I should have walked away at this point, once running it sounded like an old transit with a York diesel fitted.  I gave them the benefit of the doubt due to the flat battery possibly messing with the ECU, the lack of petrol in it and the fact that it had alledgedly been sat for ten days plus in sub zero temperatures.

I was reassured the car had previously been fine and on the very gentle short test drive it felt ok.....ish, again put any niggles down to it being stood.  They agreed to put 12 months test on it which it passed first time with only an advisory for a wiper blade and the handbrake adjustment and a deal was struck.

Long story short, now its in regular use it is clearly not right and after visiting this forum and doing my homework I think I am driving a hand grenade.  There is no power, not to the degree some have reported on here but its not right, in the first two gears it feels as if it is being starved of fuel, it is absolutely flat and sounds thrashy at high revs, it is clear the VVTI is not working as there is no "zing", it is not the revvy buzzy engine I was expecting and performance is dreadful.  My wife has an 04 Mazda Premacy sport, also 138bhp that will trounce the MR2 in a straight line and it will just about wheeze its way to about 6000rpm at the moment if you are brave/ cruel enough to try.

It was idling between 500 and 1500 rpm and very lumpy, I have removed and cleaned the MAF sensor and reset the ECU but there has been no difference and it still has an horrendous diesel soundrack with a bit of a miss below 2000rpm if you blip the throttle.  I am well read on the pre cat issue now and have done all the checks bar the visual inspection, I dont want to start removing O2 sensors and manifolds at the moment due to the possible impending warranty claim and the possibility of them blaming me for any damage, there is no white residue in the exhaust, although the age and mileage mean it may have stopped manifesting itself in this way some time ago, there is a lot of condensation from the exhaust accompanied by water from the tail pipe but nothing oily.  It doesnt appear to be using/ losing oil at this point and I had my friend follow me home from work last night who reported no nasty smells or funny coloured clouds from the car, incidentally he was in a 94 1.8 MX5 which again is substantially nippier than my MR2 is at present.

If you keep the revs low and change up early it actually drives and pulls quite well, it is quite torquey and smooth below 3000rpm and I'm guessing would happily pull to three figures in this manner, there is just nothing above 3000rpm and it sounds awful but Im not suffering any of the "won't do 60mph" issues I have read on here.

I suppose I'm asking, do you think this is the pre-cat issue and the beginning of the end for my engine or do you think it is something a good service and general clean up will sort?  I have spoken to the dealer who is having the car back on Wednesday (my next rest day) to have a look as I also have an issue with the gearbox, noisy whine on 5th gear (anyone had this before) and a bit of an issue down  shifting from 5th to 4th, and he has been quite apologetic and helful so far basically saying take it back and they'll do any required work.  I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place now, I'm smitten with the car, amazing handling, great fun and dont really want to part with it, so do I give him the opportunity to fix it or state not fit for purpose and walk away?  To me it requires a replacement engine and box, certainly only that would make me 100% happy but cant see the dealer putting that money into an £1800 car.

[Stephster]

You shouldn't be having problems above 3000 rpm, the car should be pulling smoothly without any undue noise apart from a pleasant revving noise. Others on the forum, who are more mechanically minded than I am though, will be able to talk you through the rest of the thing you mention - and I am sure they will be along shortly.
In my opinion they have sold you a car that is as it stands not fit for purpose, and I think as the law stands you have to give them an opportunity to put it right. If they can't, then the car is not fit for purpose and they should take it back (and then you can buy mine  s;) s;)

[Wabbitkilla]

Well then, quite a first post there, welcome to the club   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

Taking this a step at a time.

Does the engine light come on with the ignition and then go out once the engine is running?
Sometimes dealers disable this in a number of ways to hide an obvious problem. It would be interesting to plug an obd2 reader in and see what it says.

When you say it doesn't seem to be using any oil, how many miles have you driven it and then been checking the level?

There are a few possible reasons for the wheezy nature you are describing, air filter, maf, precat collapse, oil starvation, plugs being ancient, vvti malfunction. Vvti malfunction would likely bring on the engine light, the vvti on this engine is very subtle and actually helps more with low end torque more than high end revs.

You say the engine sounds like an old diesel, which is a common symptom of an engine that has used a lot of oil and then damaged bearings. Putting new oil in might extend its life a little, but it's never going to 'heal'.

Steam and condensation is quite normal, especially in cold weather, that is a sign of healthy combustion.

5th gear whine is symptomatic of bearing wear in the gearbox, how bad it is is subjective. The gearboxes do get a bit noisy with miles and sometimes a refresh of oil is all it takes to cure it, we all live on limited time though.

You have bought a cheap high mileage car, 83000 miles and 12 years old, it's never going to be perfect, that's not making excuses for what could be a faulty car though. They are cars which are very easy to love, the drive is so different and enjoyable. It is the right thing to take it back to the dealer to fix, they're responsible for it. At £1800 their options and time they are prepared to spend on it are limited,  for that value they are more likely to fob you off. I've seen cars that take a couple of hours and a good service to get back to full health, and then cars that just sap money, time, and health ... I'm undecided which your car is at the moment. I will say, keep your wits about you and don't be suckered just because you like the car, I've seen too many people suffer that fate.

They really should have made sure it was fit for purpose when you collected it, they have one chance to make it right and then you demand your money back.

[dj2k21]

Have only scanned over this as im at work but the diesel like sound suggests to me it could be running on 3? Could be well overdue plugs like wabbit says or a coilpack is gone? That would cause loss of power. Lumpy idle, and possibly make it feel like vvti is not engaging.  That would be my first point of call. Good luck

[Wabbitkilla]

Also MOT's form big warehouse type dealers tend to mean nothing.
I saw one car come out with a bent front shock, and faulty rear light with a full clean mot.

Plug or could pack would also normally bring on the engine light.
If it turns out they have disabled the engine light, personally, I wouldn't even let them try and fix the car ... It would be rejected and I would get my money back and they would be lucky not to be reported to trading standards.

[loadswine]

Engine light, coming on with ignition, then going out on startup is definitely the first thing to do then.

[wallzaveerz]

Right, third time lucky, previous two replies havent materialised.

Thanks for the quick replies, I am a mechanic by trade although its been a while since I earned money with a spanner, I'll go through and answer the things you guys have suggested.

It is not running on three, definitely all four trying in there, its a hesitation at low revs, like a sticky or chipped valve, suppose could be crappy plugs or a failing coil pack but I would expect it to do it under load if this was the case which it doesnt seem to.

Cant be 100% certain about the engine light, I think it is ok though, I'll double check tonight on my way home.  Ive checked the oil every day since I bought it after reading some of the threads on here, it hasnt moved from about three quarters of the way up the stick since I bought it, only covered about 500 miles though so maybe not a great bench mark just yet.  Oil is getting ready for a change but Ive seen far worse, far from black, just a bit smelly.

My mate with the MX5 has had one of these previously and has already told me not to expect a VTEC or MiVEC type change in the engine behaviour with the VVTi as it is more discreet, however he agrees mine is doing nothing.  As per my post already stripped and cleaned air filter and MAF sensor, both nice and clean and dry, no signs of back pressure or engine breathing.  Air filter is genuine toyota item, again a bit grubby but seen far far worse and certainly wouldnt restrict the car to the extent it feels.

This is the odd bit, the air filter and MAF took me about twenty minutes to complete, this was immediately after a brisk 10 mile country road drive home from work, when I restarted the car was when I got the big cloud of condensation, definitely a cold start type cloud with a slightly fuelly smell, water out the tail pipe, no blue smoke, no oily smells, just didnt think the car would have cooled enough in that time to run like that on restart.

The car is a bit of a contradiction, a bit rough and ready, clearly washed rather than polished, kept rather than loved and yet has genuine toyota filters and matching half worn Continentals all round so hasnt been maintained on the cheap.  Im hoping a bit of a flush and clean and a good service could be the cure but my gut says not.

Gearbox is another matter entirely, sounds like a straight cut touring car box when in top and wont down shift to fourth but the garage have provisionally agreed to sort this already.  Baffled and gutted!  And Im aware of the value (or lack of) of a dealer supplied MOT.

[wallzaveerz]

Also relevent, no mayo in either the oil or the header tank and the diesel sound is more reminiscent of diesel "crack" rather than "knock".  

Top end sounds very thrashy like it is being starved of oil.  It feels very restricted in lower gears, almost as if someone has put their hand over the exhaust, which I suppose indicates a cat problem.

[Wabbitkilla]

Hmmmm, you've done lots of practical and sensible things there.

500 miles and no oil use is actually a good sign, it may be a good engine. Let us know how you get on with the engine light.

I recently serviced mine and found the plugs way out of gap, the difference the new set was very apparent and pleasing.

The engines can be a bit noisier than what you're used to, there's not a lot of insulation between it and the back of your head. Cam chain rattle may be apparent in your mileage and it may be worth replacing the tensioner.

The car has been owned and not loved, there are many out there like that, care and attention can do wonders.

The gearbox sounds like it's not long for this life, it is worth solving before it goes bang completely. If you look up Mattperfornance, one of our affiliates he may be able to help.

If you do keep the car you're going to meet some great people and I recommend you come along to the Ding Day to get to know faces. We can have a look over the car and lend a hand with anything you want to talk about.

[Wabbitkilla]

Forgot to say, there is a good garage not so far from you, Charlesworth Motors have lots of experience with our cars and are enthusiastic workers. We also have some really friendly ans helpful members around the Greater Manchester area who would likely be happy to visit and offer support. I get over there every so often too so you're not alone. I may actually be over there tomorrow evening meeting another club.

[wallzaveerz]

Thanks for the welcome and the help.  Actually in Wigan so a little North of Manchester.  To be honest wouldnt be happy driving it any further than work (Haydock) at the moment.  Will just have to see what Wednesday brings at the dealers.  From experience happy and friendly on the phone equates to surly and unhelpful in person when it comes to parting with pound notes.

[cabbydave]

If you want to bob over to Bramhall you can go out in mine and compare the two cars. Mine pulls well but it does use a little bit of oil at the moment but that will be sorted when I drop the rebuilt engine in.

[wallzaveerz]

That might be an idea, thanks for the offer.  With a spannering background its already painfully obvious its broken unfortunately, and as I said earlier my mate had one a while back, been using him for reference and he has said mine is nowhere near where it needs to be.

[Zonda_]

Reject the car,  quickly,  you don't have a long period to do this.  Buy a better one and you'll love it,  if only I knew of a good one for sale...   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[wallzaveerz]

Right, just got home from work, was going to pull the plugs tonight and have a look whats going on with them but not going to bother now.  Dipped the oil again when I've got home, still doesn't appear to have used anything at all in the days Ive had it, in fact, ironically its now starting to look like the only thing working properly are the bloody pre-cats, doesn't appear to be any symptoms off that list going on with my car at all.

HOWEVER..............

As predicted the engine management light HAS been disabled, this puts a new slant on everything, somebody somewhere has now deliberately sought to con somebody else, either the dealer trying it on with me or whoever part exed the car has had the dealer over.  Either way its the straw that broke the camels back.....its going.

It is so underpowered and generally underwhelming that I suspect some expensive VVTi failure, I really cant describe how it drives, just feels like somebody has dropped a 1.2 Fiat Punto lump in it, if you've ever driven one of those you may understand what I mean, just at the point you'd expect a sweet little 16 valve motor to come on song it feels like its been artificially shut down.  It feels restricted.

Coupled with the gearbox issue and the general "dog eared" standard of the rest of the car its just a bridge too far, yes I wanted a toy to play with for the summer but by play with I meant blatting round country roads with the roof off, not lying under it on my days off in overalls. Suppose I'm being a bit cruel to the car with the term dog eared, sure the roof is a little bit tatty in places, there are the odd bits of trim not on straight etc but the shell is mint and i bought it with the mindset that it WOULD be fun doing those little bits and pieces and making it perfect and mine.....I didn't sign up for this though.   Properly gutted but hey ho.

[Wabbitkilla]

Sorry to say I kind of expected the engine light to be disabled, I believe you are making the right decision.
There will be others out there much more worthy if you still want to try the roadster as a fun car.

[wallzaveerz]

Oh I'm hooked mate, that's the shame of it, absolutely did NOT expect the driving experience to be as amazing as it is.  The handling is sublime, even this one puts a big smile on my face, even though it feels like about 60 horses have run away at some point, and yes I do estimate the power to be down by that much.  I had a 1.6 CVH powered Scimitar SS1 many moons ago pumping out a mighty 95bhp and it was WAAAAAY quicker than this poorly little 2 is at present.

So come on Wabbit, what is your prediction for the actual fault?  I'm tempted to get it diagnosed locally before I take it back and see if the dealer admits the same faults or tries to blag me.  Sad thing is I part exed an elderly Saab 900 convertible in against it that was as reliable as a swiss watch, just a bad call all round basically.  I need to see what the dealer comes back with though really, I give everybody a fair chance and maybe just maybe he might not be in on the "scam", wishful thinking here but a certified and warrantied second hand engine and box installed by a garage of my choice would see me keeping the car provided no invoice of any sort came within thirty miles of me.  That's the only way I can see it staying though and everything will be in writing from this point on.

[Wabbitkilla]

Guessing what's wrong with it is tough.

The maf could be faulty.
O2 sensors could be dead.
Main cat could be blocked with precat debris.
Vvti actuator or ocv could be duff.
Any combination of the above, only way to be certain would be to plug a reader in and start from there.

I'm meeting with some friends in Stockport for 7pm tomorrow night going for a drive, will have reader with me.
Having a code reader in your toolkit is very handy these days, whenever I've gone to look at cars for people it's one of the first things I do.

[mrzwei]

Everything you say seems to point to a timing issue so either this is fundamentally out (slipped cog or just put back a tooth out) or the variable valve stuff.
Possibly fuel feed related.
Be interesting to see if the engine number matches the V5.

I'd love to be there when you mention that the CEL light isn't working.

[wallzaveerz]

Everything you say seems to point to a timing issue so either this is fundamentally out (slipped cog or just put back a tooth out) or the variable valve stuff.
Possibly fuel feed related.
Be interesting to see if the engine number matches the V5.

I'd love to be there when you mention that the CEL light isn't working.

You know what I hadn't actually considered a timing issue, never at the forefront of my mind with modern distributorless engines but thinking back to years gone by its probably the best way to describe how it feels, but surely that points to a VVTi issue again.

As per your comment over the V5, i will be checking numbers as it does feel so fundamentally wrong that a different engine is a real possibility, its still a 1zz obviously but could be from anywhere or anything and just dropped in.

As for mentioning the management light, I'm a fleet manager for a very large well known company, nailling people for trying to put one over on me is part of the job remit, these guys have poked the wrong dog!!!!       s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted:

[wallzaveerz]

Guessing what's wrong with it is tough.

The maf could be faulty.
O2 sensors could be dead.
Main cat could be blocked with precat debris.
Vvti actuator or ocv could be duff.
Any combination of the above, only way to be certain would be to plug a reader in and start from there.

I'm meeting with some friends in Stockport for 7pm tomorrow night going for a drive, will have reader with me.
Having a code reader in your toolkit is very handy these days, whenever I've gone to look at cars for people it's one of the first things I do.

Hi wabbit, would have been ideal to hook up with you and plug my car in but I work 12 hour shifts from 6am to 6pm and thats assuming I get out on time.  Tend to be on autopilot by the end of a shift, too much so to drive another 20 miles further from home afterward then back again.  Thank you, you guys are brilliant, support network alone makes it worth owning a roadster but its genuinely worth the £20- £30 to get it checked on Weds morning round the corner from home on the way to the dealer rather than prolonging my day tomorrow....guess I'm just lazy!

[Wabbitkilla]

I have seen a few times where a newer engine was dropped in (even by Toyota), and they've ignored the fact the catalyst was blocked. Result is they just ruin another engine.

[mrzwei]

[quote="wallzaveerz" these guys have poked the wrong dog!!!!       s:twisted: :twisted: s:twisted: [/quote]

  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:   Love it!

[wallzaveerz]

This is looking favourite wabbit, although I suspect Toyota themselves havent featured in the equation.  also of interest is it has a private plate, now to me a plate is kept and transferred from car to car, call me cynical but for me a car equipped with a private plate has been parted from its owner with none of the transfer delays for a very good reason!!  Just  spiss piss spiss ed off I've been had over to be honest, had over 70 cars in 20 years and never really had my fingers burned.

I think this has died previously and had some convenient ex taxi lump dropped in that is simply worn out.  Also got a sneaky feeling from the gutsy noise it makes that I will find the pre-cats already removed from the manifold, its information easily found on here, for the rest of the car to be so mechanically poor it makes no sense whatsoever that the pre-cat issue would not be part of the existing issues, but it genuinely doesn't appear to be the case on this car.  It actually sounds a little better since I've had it, just still very unwell.

[Anonymous]

Code reader will help identify the problem, I would look at pre cats blocking the main cat, and by blocking I mean restricting the air flow partly. Also as a possibility I know a warn out crank sensor can cause similar issues.

On a side note the VVTI is not a vtec ar all in fact its the opposite. It pulls the timming out so to make it more emmissions friendly during closed loop. When you rev hard or open it up it goes into open loop and forgets its even a vvti.