what do irregular cylinder bore measurements indicate

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 15:21

When my first engine was replaced the service manager mentioned that the cylinder bore measurements & piston diameter measurements where irregular & possibly a manufacturing fault. sorry to be thick but what do these measurements indicate & could that be right.

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 15:27

Assuming you know a little about cylinders and pistons (shout if you don't). The size of the piston, and the size of the cylinder it's pumping in and out of aren't the same. So there are gaps. Gaps mean leakage which can mean stuff (oil, fuel, gases etc.) leaking into the wrong place.

It could have been the problem, but if it were the first engine, it's surprising that it lasted 30000 miles.

Others may correct me on this, 'cause though I know how an engine works, I've not worked on one.

markiii · July 16, 2003, 15:34

yes but that is what the rings are supposed to be for. To prevent oil blowing by the piston.

Comes back to the theory that the rings are at fault.

markiii · July 16, 2003, 15:35

Claire,

Can I ask that we keep this discussion to one thread. It will make it much easier to follow an for you to get some constructive help.

Please continue here and I will lock the other threads.

Mark.

Speaking with Mod hat on.

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 15:38

HI
Know the basics although for the purposes of my problem with Toyota i will remain very blonde & very female. However managed to get copies of all test & repair documentation from the dealers due to Toyota still not having coughed up for any of the repair work yet & the stated standard measurements & the actual measurements on both accounts are different.
Now i was specifically told that the engine had been replaced & as such i would have a new engine number however on both repair sheets from 2 different dealerships the engine numbers are the same. Any chance that only the top engine was replaced hence reoccurring fault. Or is that being blonde!

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 15:41

Hmmmmmm.....tricky one this one cos it could actually mean a couple of things. When my Dad still had his garage, when he talked about "irregular bore measurements" he tended to talk in terms of that it was a symptom of something.

What it means is that, as Phil has already said, the cylinder is the wrong "shape". What can happen is that is the piston tollerances are slightly out at manufacturing, the piston tends to "slap" around the cylinder, with certain areas around the cylinder bore getting excessively worn. My Dad said he has seen cylinders on older engines that are almost oval at the bottom!!!! With an engine of only 30K (it was that wasn't it?), then I would be tempted to say it IS a amnufacturing problem. But what is weird is that there didn't (unless I read wrongly) that there were any previous symptoms and that the engine just went "bang". Which is weird cos usually with piston slap, the engine can keep going for quite some time, but there are usually symptoms ongoing, such as blue smoke, excessive oil use and excessive fuel consumption, not to mention some horrible noises!

A strange one that one. I reckon what has happened is that if what you say is correct, then undue stress has been put on one of the cylinders and pistons and it has succumb to catastrohpic breakdown. If this has happened, then the tolerances would have to have been WAY out. If this is the case, then MrT had better start looking into that one........

Hope you get it sorted soon!

Another things is (sorry to go on) is that you say the same thing has happened to 3 different engines? Well, if this is the case, there are two scenarios. One is that you have been VERY unlucky to have had maybe the engines all out of a bad batch or that there is something else on the car that is exasperating the problem that might not be directly cylinder/piston relatd, such as the oil pump is not producing engouh/too much pressure, the cooling system is not getting to the right places and the metals are not expanding or contracting to the right dimensions when running at temperature and so on. I would gather a guess that is might be the second scenario.

Ask them a couple of questions. When they replaced the engine, do they mean just the block, or do they mean ALL of the ancillaries as well (i.e. Oil pump, fuel pump, alternator, injections system etc). If it is just the block and they put all your ORIGINAL ancillaries back on, then it may well be that there is a fault in those that is making the same thing happen again and again on the replacement blocks. If they replace everything, then, well, I don't know............

HTH!!!!

markiii · July 16, 2003, 15:44

Close enough :-) :-) :-)

They would usually replace only the top (short block) unless they specifically see a need to go further. I wouldn't say they lied to you just Generalised as most people wouldn't care or understand.

Common theory is that whatever starts the chain of events once you have the problem the oil passing through stuffs the cats. They then break up causing the exhaust path through the cat to clog. This causes more back pressure than the engine can handle which puts more strain on the rings which then let more oil pass by, and on and on we go until boom.

2 shortblocks and then a long block would tally if memory serves with the problems that Peter has had. Though scant consolation while common in the US your problem seems limited to 3 known cases on this list. Though I suspect Toyota know of many more.

Mark.

markiii · July 16, 2003, 15:47

Quote from: "John Woodward"Hmmmmmm.....tricky one this one cos it could actually mean a couple of things. When my Dad still had his garage, when he talked about "irregular bore measurements" he tended to talk in terms of that it was a symptom of something.

What it means is that, as Phil has already said, the cylinder is the wrong "shape". What can happen is that is the piston tollerances are slightly out at manufacturing, the piston tends to "slap" around the cylinder, with certain areas around the cylinder bore getting excessively worn. My Dad said he has seen cylinders on older engines that are almost oval at the bottom!!!! With an engine of only 30K (it was that wasn't it?), then I would be tempted to say it IS a amnufacturing problem. But what is weird is that there didn't (unless I read wrongly) that there were any previous symptoms and that the engine just went "bang". Which is weird cos usually with piston slap, the engine can keep going for quite some time, but there are usually symptoms ongoing, such as blue smoke, excessive oil use and excessive fuel consumption, not to mention some horrible noises!

A strange one that one. I reckon what has happened is that if what you say is correct, then undue stress has been put on one of the cylinders and pistons and it has succumb to catastrohpic breakdown. If this has happened, then the tolerances would have to have been WAY out. If this is the case, then MrT had better start looking into that one........

Hope you get it sorted soon!

Another things is (sorry to go on) is that you say the same thing has happened to 3 different engines? Well, if this is the case, there are two scenarios. One is that you have been VERY unlucky to have had maybe the engines all out of a bad batch or that there is something else on the car that is exasperating the problem that might not be directly cylinder/piston relatd, such as the oil pump is not producing engouh/too much pressure, the cooling system is not getting to the right places and the metals are not expanding or contracting to the right dimensions when running at temperature and so on. I would gather a guess that is might be the second scenario.

Ask them a couple of questions. When they replaced the engine, do they mean just the block, or do they mean ALL of the ancillaries as well (i.e. Oil pump, fuel pump, alternator, injections system etc). If it is just the block and they put all your ORIGINAL ancillaries back on, then it may well be that there is a fault in those that is making the same thing happen again and again on the replacement blocks. If they replace everything, then, well, I don't know............

HTH!!!!

Good point John, there have been instance in the US of the oil pump getting stuffed when the engine says goodnight and the it casusing the problem on a new engine if not replaced.

I doubt MR T replaces all of the ancilleries as well.

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 15:53

Kinda what I thought. I hadn't heard too much from the States about that, but it has been known to happen quite regularly on other engines, especially Toyota engines. My Mk1 had a very simliar thing happen.

I am just looking at all the scenarios here. All of the above have relevance though. It could be any of them. My next tack would be to ask Mr T EVERYTHING in detail about the engine replacement and what they do. Then, if you see something that looks like it could be linked (i.e. oil leakage into cat and causing back pressure, the oil pump NOT being replaced etc) then you have something to work with and also something to hold them to ransom with as they have then proven themselves incompetant to not find the possible faults. Its no good replacing engines at their cost all the while when the fault isn't directly linked and THEY can't find it!!!

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 16:14

you see this is why i get peed off.
first time round the dealership in Birmingham just blagged me constantly.
now remember first time round i had the dodgy noise at which point i contacted my dealership who booked me in a week later. it was you classic knocking noise that starts that slight twisting feeling in your stomache. Then as i persisted i was told to bring the car up later that afternoon. As i set off i had all the white /blueish smoke, chances are i had it before but being Febuary & i run nightclubs i wouldn't have noticed in the dark. However i had already spoken to a Toyota dealership when i had some bodywork done a couple of weeks earlier because i had noticed increased fuel consumption & got patted on the head & sent on my way with a number of non discript excuses such as nearly due service ect.. ect....
The second & current set of repairs were & are being carried out by a dealer in Derby who are as honest & upfront as you can get but i don't see how two seperate garages could stuff the same repairs up which i have highlighted to Toyota as regards to the fact the actual problem has not been remedied.
It has only been the 2nd & 3rd time that i have had no prior warning as to engine failure.
Both times the exhaust manifold & valve have been replaced but not the entire system also would appear to be warpage on the cylinder head what does that indicate?
Also please explain why Toyota seem to think i would only get just over 100 miles per litre of oil when standard usage is 1000 per litre as far as i am aware.
Sorry to go on

markiii · July 16, 2003, 16:17

Agreed,

I'd compile your list and then ask to speak to the tech who worked on it rather than the service desk person, as to be honest most of the service desk are more admin than techncial at my dealer.

Also sexist as it is, take your other half with you. He don't need to say anything but sad as it is your less likey to get fobbed off if theres a bloke there. For some reason they expect us to understand this mechanical stuff.

Mark.

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 16:18

yep oil pump replaced it is only the short block sorry know as the top part very basic

markiii · July 16, 2003, 16:25

Quote from: "claire"you see this is why i get peed off.
first time round the dealership in Birmingham just blagged me constantly.
now remember first time round i had the dodgy noise at which point i contacted my dealership who booked me in a week later. it was you classic knocking noise that starts that slight twisting feeling in your stomache. Then as i persisted i was told to bring the car up later that afternoon. As i set off i had all the white /blueish smoke, chances are i had it before but being Febuary & i run nightclubs i wouldn't have noticed in the dark. However i had already spoken to a Toyota dealership when i had some bodywork done a couple of weeks earlier because i had noticed increased fuel consumption & got patted on the head & sent on my way with a number of non discript excuses such as nearly due service ect.. ect....
The second & current set of repairs were & are being carried out by a dealer in Derby who are as honest & upfront as you can get but i don't see how two seperate garages could stuff the same repairs up which i have highlighted to Toyota as regards to the fact the actual problem has not been remedied.
It has only been the 2nd & 3rd time that i have had no prior warning as to engine failure.
Both times the exhaust manifold & valve have been replaced but not the entire system also would appear to be warpage on the cylinder head what does that indicate?
Also please explain why Toyota seem to think i would only get just over 100 miles per litre of oil when standard usage is 1000 per litre as far as i am aware.
Sorry to go on

All engines use oil differently and again it will even differ according to the weather (how cold/hot it is) however to be honest I doubt they know the answer and so are blagging you, to make life easy.

Based upon the smoke I'd say you were definately burning oil. That makes me lean toward expecting it to have killed the precats (in the manifold) if this has happened chances are the debris is blocking the main cat and the backpressure is what has killed the subsequent engines.

3 questions:

1. Do you do lots of short runs?
2. What oil do you use?
3. Where do you live? (maybe we can reccomend a good dealer, Brum and Derby are quite far apart)

Now a suggestion. If you know anyone who's a bit handy with a spanner or a good local garage, ask them to drop the downpipe off the manifold (2 bolts, they'll understand) and look back into the manifold. Look for a white powdery substance, or chunks thereof. If you find that then your pre-cats are definately blown.

Mark.

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 16:36

in response to markiii
the guys who worked on the car have provided with all the reports & photocopies of warranty invoice ( which i am sure they shouldn't)
the general gist i am getting is that they admitt they don't know the cause but warranty so far will only let them go so far ie find out what is damaged & replace. i even qustioned H/O as to why they hadn't run a diagnostic test which i assumed was pretty standard these days but remember this a company who has a multiple engine claim under warranty & still does not inspect any of the damaged engine parts which makes me suspicious if i'm honest.
As to the other half there isn't one & the dealer is well aware of that due to them having the car for a greater period of time then myself.

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 16:37

I would definitely second what Mark has said there. Firstly, it is a sad state of affairs when you have to do this, cos the world shouldn't be like it, but it is. So, if you have another half, then take him along (assuming you are not batting for the other side that is!!! Well, you never know in this PC world do you? Oh, and I am not saying you are either!!! s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ). If he has ANY mechanical nouse about him, get HIm to do a bit of the talking maybe. I know what Mark is saying, but in my experience, I have noticed when I have gone along to garages after my girlfriend has had repairs done to her Clio, the assistants don't seem to want to talk to her and when they do, it is in a very condescending and patronising way. As soon as I have piped up, the technicalities of what was wrong and so on soon come out. Also, they have tried to fob her off on many occasions. The last time was recently when there was an exhaust blow and they "replaced" the exhaust, only for me (to their suprise) to drop her off at the garage to pick up the car. While she was in the office coughing up the cash, I started the car and checked it over only to discover that the downpipe wasn't even attached to the the bloody main section! It sounded like a tank!!! I went mad!!!

Anyway, take a bloke, any bloke, who has a bit of knowlegde and bring him up to scratch on EVERYTHING, so the both of you can go for the attack.

Secondly, definately get someone else at a garage to have a look in the manifold. The good thing is that cos you have already had the engine changed, the two drop bolts that hold the exhaust to the mainfold will already be loose(ish) and will have been moved. So, its not as if it will be the first time and when it fixed back together, MrT won;t even know it has been tampered with. Won't affect a thing. Then, with your knowledge close to you (don't say anything, just see what they do), you can produce the evidence at alater date if they are arsing you about.

Try that. We WILL get to the bottom of this as a group!!! s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 17:26

Claire

In one of your multiple posts you mention that you are still paying for the car. Do you mean finance, Toyota or otherwise? If you are paying the finance company for the car they bought it originally from a dealer and are selling it to you so IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY under the Sale of Goods Act. Get a solicitor to check this out. I'm only an Insurance Broker s:!: :!: s:!:

When you say Birmingham do you mean Toyota World? If so, did you know that Hamer Toyota went into liquidation in about Feb 2002 and the business was bought from the liquidator by Sytners, who now run the site as tenants (because Toyota are the landlords who own the building/land) The dealer principle is Sharon Rickers, who used to run the Tamworth site for Hamer Toyota.

If you are blonde and attractive go and flutter your eye lashes at the finance rep. Things like that work on me every time s:!: :!: s:!: s:!: :!: s:!:

s:)

s:) s:)

s:)

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 17:58

Sorry to say, but the sexist think is correct.

Our 2 is actually in Kerstie's name. However when we took it in to get the laquere crap fixed, they spoke to me and ignored her stood next to me.

When we went to pic it up, Kerstie spoke to the girl at the desk, then the chap came out and spoke to me and handed me the keys as he showed us around the car. Kerstie then stated with enough sarcasim that as the car was hers' then so where the keys.

I shit world we live in...if it was me on the other hand, I would have talked to her and not me as she is young, blonde and fit, and I am not.

markiii · July 16, 2003, 18:01

All good points . If we ignore you at JAE tough :-) :-) :-)

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 18:08

the new puppy is cuter though...sorry for the slight digression.

http://www.the3w.com/neo/images/neo5_jpg.jpg

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 19:27

ok guys
the actual dealers are trying to help me currently the site my car is at do not want to repair the engine as they feel the car is unsafe because they don't know what the problem is bot H/O keep telling them to replce the damaged parts. They are as stunned as me that an engineer has not been down. Trust me the service department is arguing with them as much as i am trying to & is stuck in the middle.

John Woodward, no sorry, i don't bat for the other side

Roger H unfortunatly part financed with Toyota finance.so stuck there.
Yes I know Hammer went under brought this MR2 from Tamworth & lost a lot of documentation when they merged with Toyota World not a good start.
Have to say Toyota World have been really helpful since the initial first cock up. Remember Toyota H/O specifically told me that my engine failed because of their i quote ''negligence'' saying that not only did they replace the damaged engine & not put oil in but they had also serviced & not noticed. now know this to be untrue but at the time resulted in me bad mouthing Toyota World & as far as i am aware they still have not been payed for the work they carried out last Febuary. What does thet say about Toyota.
Back to the point is it possible that the original bored cylinders are being used, & the exhaust manifold was replaced both times if it is replaced again will i still be able to find the debris

markiii · July 16, 2003, 19:32

An engine rebuild would not normaly require a new manifold.

Since they replaced it that makes me think there was a pre-cat issue. However the particles will find there way into the main cat, whivh when clogged can equally cause back pressure issues.

As our US cousins have found getting Toyota to replace the main Cat is difficult at best. If you unbolt the main cat from the back box you should be abe to check for debris.

Mark.

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 19:39

Markiii
No i do a lot of motorway driving mainly so steady revs & no strain on the engine.
As regards to oil i could lie but the truth is the most expensive synthetic that says for performance cars thats as much as i know about oil. no one brand.
Sutton Coldfield but currently working in Notts

Anonymous · July 16, 2003, 19:44

you guys know a lot more then me so quick list of replaced parts identical each time.
CYLINDER HEAD
EX SHORT BLOCK
TIMING CHAIN
CHAIN TENSIONER
SLIPPER/T/CHAIN
CHAIN DAMPER
INLET VALVE
EXHAUST VALVE
VALVE LIFTER
OIL PUMP
EXHAUST MANIFOLD
GASKET, MANIFOLD
EXHAUST FR. PIPE
OIL FILTER
GASKET DRAIN PLUG
GASKET KIT ENGINE

SAYS THEY CHECKED CAT CONVERTERS BUT NO RESULTS.

markiii · July 16, 2003, 20:34

Firstly,

Oil, although the perception is that fully synth is the best for any engine. It's not true. Synthetic burns clear so you don't see that it's going. It also slips passed the rings easier which is why Toiyota only spec sei synth fr the 2. So I would stop using that in future.

The replacement list seems quite comprehensive, so I can only thik that either a)I'm right and the main cat is toast or b) the collateral damage caused a problem with the bottom end. Since your now getting a new long block. I'd suggest we wait and see.

I would however heed the oil comment and get them to check the main cata agin.

Mark.

Anonymous · July 17, 2003, 09:02

Yeah, I would go with Mark. Seems like with all these ancillarires changed, then it can only be a problem with something that remains in the engine. I would wait until the long block is changed and see what happens. Make sure the oil is semi synth and hold on for dear life and keep those fingers crossed!!!

Oh, and me asking about batting for the other side? It wasn't a wish, I was just being politically correct!!!! s:wink: :wink: s:wink: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: