Pre-cats don't damage engine?!

[Anonymous]

then surely every '2 should suffer from failing precats and not just a small percentage?

I reckon some factors could contribute to the failure:

Intense driving conditions (track days, mountain driving, fast motorway driving (>110 mph) where the engine will be producing 100 kW of power over long periods of time instead of 15-50 kW for "normal" urban driving. (Hey but surely the '2 was designed for intense driving?)

Heat (in its original Japanese specification, the '2 has none of that thick sound proofing under the engine hood and under the engine bay) In the Euro model, the engine is all wrapped up in a "duvet" and on hot days, if you open the hood, you can see a column of intense heat coming out.

Perhaps the fuel quality and type of oil can also play a contributing part to the pre-cat failure. (Although I've always only used Shell/BP/Esso fuels and premium quality fully synthetic oils like Mobil 1...)

I think the Toyota engineers could give you a much better answer   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Tem]

Not sure about this, but you may be able to adjust valve overlap with Power FC if you change the VVT (Variable Valve Timing) map.  Someone on SC (I think it was LittleRocket) said that one of them (exhaust I think) has fixed timing?  I forget.  Messing with VVT is not something I feel up to.

Yeah, you can. The VVT-i system changes the intake cam phase related to its driving gear. So basically you could totally remove the overlap with PFC, assuming the valves wouldn't hit the pistons or anything...but I bet it wouldn't be the best option in any way.

[Anonymous]

Hey but surely the '2 was designed for intense driving?

The car was, but not so much the engine, remember it's used nearly across the whole toyota range. if it was a sports car engine, i doubt they'd use it in a family car like the Avensis

Perhaps the fuel quality and type of oil can also play a contributing part to the pre-cat failure. (Although I've always only used Shell/BP/Esso fuels and premium quality fully synthetic oils like Mobil 1...)

Im sure its been said that fully synthetic has a habit of getting too thin when worked hard, enabling it to get past the piston rings. surely that cant do the pre-cats any good!

Im sticking to semi-synth, it's what the book says after all

[Tem]

The car was, but not so much the engine, remember it's used nearly across the whole toyota range. if it was a sports car engine, i doubt they'd use it in a family car like the Avensis

I don't think there's really anything wrong with the engine itself. If we didn't have the precats and/or the engine bay would get as much cooling air as in typical front engined car, I'm sure the engine would be just as reliable as on any other car.

People do race/track Avensis, Corolla and Celica as well and the same engine in those don't seem to have this issue...

[Anonymous]

The car was, but not so much the engine, remember it's used nearly across the whole toyota range. if it was a sports car engine, i doubt they'd use it in a family car like the Avensis

I think just about all car manufacturers use as few engine units as possible (too expensive otherwise?) For instance, the 2.2l Opel/Vauxhall powers just about anything in their range, from the Astra, family saloons, people carriers to the (Lotus Elise like) Speedster (VX220?). And frankly, this 2.2l engine isn't a patch on anything Honda or Toyota build.

The 1ZZ-FE is a high-performance light-weight BEAMS engine. (BEAMS=Breakthrough Engine with Advanced Mechanism System.) The 2ZZ is an even better version of it! It is also the very first all aluminium engine Toyota have produced. By definition, this engine is perfect for light weight sports cars (Lotus have chosen the Toyota 2ZZ over Honda, BMW, etc.) or as a matter of fact, any other car that needs 138bhp, a good torque range, low weight and good fuel economy. Even if it is a Yaris   s:) s:)  

The only real problem the "izzy" has is that couple of ceramic time-bombs stuck to it.    s:flame: :flame: s:flame:  

Im sure its been said that fully synthetic has a habit of getting too thin when worked hard, enabling it to get past the piston rings. surely that cant do the pre-cats any good!


Im sticking to semi-synth, it's what the book says after all

Sure, oil too thin that separates and/or gets past the piston rings is not a good thing for the CATs.

I had often heard about this rumour regarding fully synthetic. However I once had the opportunity to discuss it with a professional engineer (who works with the Swiss Porsche racing team). Not going into all the details, he told me it's essentially a question of quality: how the properties of the oil evolve with use, temperature and time. In any type of serious racing only fully synthetic oils are used (in fact in F1 even the fuel they use is "100% synthetic")

I asked him about the rumour that fully synth gets too thin. He thinks the rumour is due to the synthetic "5W30" grade oil that has caused many cases of engine failures (BTW this is the very grade recommended in the book! And that's the very stuff I used to use before switching to full synthetic   s:? :? s:?  ). This oil is apparently far too thin when hot (30 is the viscosity when hot) and can separate. The only real "purpose" for this grade of oil is fuel economy (ideal for a Yaris!)

Non synthetic or semi-synthetic will deteriorate and become thinner with age much quicker that 100% synthetic. I fancied using 15W50 oil (the stuff he recommended me) but it's frankly too expensive and difficult to find. Instead I use 5W40 Mobil 1 which has a pretty good reputation.

[Tem]

The 1ZZ-FE is a high-performance light-weight BEAMS engine.

Where did you read that?  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

So far I've only seen BEAMS used for the latest 3S-GE generation with DUAL VVT-i system  s:? :? s:?

[Anonymous]

The 1ZZ-FE is a high-performance light-weight BEAMS engine.

Where did you read that?  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

So far I've only seen BEAMS used for the latest 3S-GE generation with DUAL VVT-i system  s:? :? s:?

It's a quote from Toyota's official press release for the launch of the MR-S (Tokyo, October 12th 1999): [Unfortunately I don't have it in electronic format, but it appeared in the Swiss Toyota Magazine that was issued at the Geneva car show in March 2000.]

Here's an extract from it:

Toyota (TMC) waved the green flag today for sales of its long-awaited, two-seater, soft-top sports car - the MR-S......

The chief components of the MR-S's ...... Power pours forth from its high-performance, 1.8 litre, BEAMS 1ZZ-FE engine equipped with VVT-i...

There is also a more detailed section on the engine:

The in-line, four-cylinder, 1.8 litre, BEAMS 1ZZ-FE engine with VVT-i, a high compression ratio (10.0:1), and an oblique squish combustion chamber produces ample low- and mid-range torque.

[By the way the good low and mid range torque are the main reasons given by Toyota for choosing the 1ZZ over the 2ZZ]

An aluminium block and resin intake manifolds help reduce overall weight.

Personally, I think the "1zzy" is a fine engine indeed; although given the option, I would have chosen the 2ZZ   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Anonymous]

First you can hear a fine (that comes suddenly) rattle between 2500-4500Rpms and comes quick louder and louder.
We let dismantle the oilpan and they opened all the holder from the crankshaft Glidebearing.
The first and the second Cylinder had a destroyed Glide Part downside, the top Half Parts from 1&2 and the whole from 3&4 and the Crankshaft are like new.
Toyota said it wasn`t enough Oil in, you can/must pay the whole repair  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  
That happend after a Year of cutting out the precats, and the warranty. The Car is 4 Years old with 45K Kmeters  s:cry: :cry: s:cry:  .
I mean that could be the Reason of the Oil consumption, because the Crankshaft is in a bad angle to the Cylinders, and the Oil starts leaking trough the precats destroy them and these blocked the Maincat. The heat makes the last bit.
Sorry, but i don`t know the right Name in english technical translation

[Anonymous]

Your meaning is clear enough.  Can you produce receipts for oil changes?  Just because the oil level was low does not mean that it is YOUR fault.  Any number of things could cause excessive oil consumption.

[Anonymous]

That's a wee bit too easy for Toyota to put the blame on low oil levels as if it were the owner's fault...

I could understand that they would object to cases where the owner has evidently totally neglected the car (no services or checks) or in the case of a very high mileage engine (>100,000mi / 160,000km).

But if there is very high oil consumption (due to damaged piston rings/cylinder liners), even regular oil checks (e.g. each time you refuel) wouldn't be enough from what I gathered from other owner's testimonies. Toyota cannot expect owners to check the oil on a twice-daily basis...

I have partly desintegrated pre-cats but my oil consumption is apparently still normal. So, I do not think that the engine is at fault or has a design problem which results in high oil consumption that consequently destroys the pre-cats... etc.

I believe in most cases the problem starts with the pre-cats failing.

What needs to be investigated is whether ceramic particles actually re-enter the cylinders (through what Toyota calls internal EGR) and destroy the engine.

I've contacted a laboratory that carries out various oil analysis and spoken with an expert there about the pre-cat failure. Because they have not yet had any such requests, they do not have any standard test to detect the presence of either ceramics or platinum/iridium/paladium in the oil. However, he said he would try to find a way of detecting the presence of CAT material in the oil.

In my pre-cat failure case, what I want to know is whether the engine has already suffered any damage--- that, the oil analysis can say for sure.

If the presence of CAT material in the oil can be verified, that would be compelling evidence that this type of pre-cat induced engine failure is due to a design fault. Warranty, or no warranty, Toyota should take responsibility in that case.

[Anonymous]

Your meaning is clear enough.  Can you produce receipts for oil changes?  Just because the oil level was low does not mean that it is YOUR fault.  Any number of things could cause excessive oil consumption.

The receipts aren`t the Problems (Toyota makes every Service)
The strange Thing is that the Underneath from 2 Glidebearings are completely destroyed, and nothing else.
Two Weeks ago from this incident, the Car was in the Garage for the 45000 Km Check.
The Rattle Noise cames up by entering the Motorway without any Lamps.
After a first Check by Toyota they said, no Problem you can drive the Car, what we don`t with this Noise.
After phones and Meetings with Toyota is one Thing clear.
Toyota Switzerland won`t know anything about Motorproblems, but they have the new Shortblock on Stock, and will catch 10`000 SFr. for the Block and the work to change it.  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:
With references to the MR2-Forums they were surprised about our experiences/knowledge about the Car.  s8) s8)  
We know the Car is out of Warranty, but i mean Toyota pays the block and we the work.
We will see whats going on.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Anonymous]

What is the engine warranty period in Switzerland?

I would keep trying to get Toyota to cover the cost of labor, too.  I hope it goes well for you.

There are articles on SpyderChat (not sure about here) on doing a 2ZZ-GE engine swap.  That is what I would do if I had to pay to have my engine replaced.  There are about 8 or so people on SpyderChat with knowledge of how to do the swap, for example LittleRocket (he is in the US).

[Anonymous]

What is the engine warranty period in Switzerland?

I would keep trying to get Toyota to cover the cost of labor, too.  I hope it goes well for you.

There are articles on SpyderChat (not sure about here) on doing a 2ZZ-GE engine swap.  That is what I would do if I had to pay to have my engine replaced.  There are about 8 or so people on SpyderChat with knowledge of how to do the swap, for example LittleRocket (he is in the US).

The Period is 3 Years, and no Chance to get it longer like the German People. They can get 2 Years longer for about 220 Euros, its nearly the same courrency in $.

The swap with the 2ZZ would be a Dream in Switzerland. Here ist a plus from 20% HP allowed from the Traffic Control Department.
Upper them you must have a confirmation Document from Toyota that the Chassis is strong enough for the plus on HP.
Toyota CH is so conservative that you never get some Documents for changing some Parts outside their normal Configuration.
The other Chance could be, you let all the Departments test your Car with this Modification (Smogtest etc), Badly on this Way, you pay 4000$ and you are Weeks on the run, to catch the Documents.
With this illegal Mod to drive trough our little country is fairly impossible, and you loose the permit/ Drive License for Months for this.
I will let you informed, and thanks for the comments