Engine dead - options please???

[Anonymous]

I can see your logic, time is against you.
To be fair I'm pleasantly surprised how well the mr2 with 1zz went on track but I would be lying if I said i wasn't going down the straights wishing I had more power!

[Alex Knight]

The MR2 has an LSD (vitally important if, as is the case here, we're talking track use) so that's a must, not an option.

Not sure I'd agree to be honest. My 2ZZ conversion is coming up to a year ago, and I'm still using the (open) Corolla diff. Sure, there were a few moments on track where it would have been beneficial (in the wet), but 98% of the time I don't miss it. Sure, it's preferable, but a must? Not in my opinion. Slidy stuff is still very much available (wet or dry).

don't forget that when using off the shelf swap over parts (manifold, ECU, stock cat) you won't see much above 170bhp from the 2zz

Have to respectfully disagree too. My car on the dyno recently: Stock cat, (restrictive & cheap) CHE manifold, Megan racing exhaust (again, not exactly free-flowing). Result: 188HP

[Anonymous]

Nice results, well worth the effort especially as you got a donor car to break up for parts  s:) s:)  

That's an excellent picture!

[cabbydave]

Theres a Celica 190 on ebay that's finishing tonight that's on in Manchester. You could buy that and your nearly there.

[1979scotte]

This thread has become a bit of a 2zz vs 1zz battle hasn't it.
I think 2zz is a viable performance upgrade for those that can do the work themselves.
I think a 1zz rebuilt by matt is about as reliable a 1zz engine you'll get anywhere.
Have said this all before.
Will a 2zz conversion have been re built or are we just talking a swap?
Does the swap come with some form of warranty?
People here seem to think 2zz are much more reliable? Is that actually the case? The op had one go wrong on his elise.
Is the op wanting reliability or more performance or both?

[1979scotte]

Also will someone tell me exactly how much a drive in/out 2zz swap is?
Not diy job.

[Anonymous]

The biggest issue with the 1zz seems to be oil burning, leading to failures. From what i understand, that is caused by precat failure over time (I may be completely wrong, that's just my understanding from reading here)

2zz doesn't have precat so doesn't suffer. That said, it has it's own issues with oil pickup, hence the NEED for a baffled sump.

Swings and roundabouts really isn't it.

Normally, a 2zz engine conversion is a swap, not a rebuild before install.

[Anonymous]

Also will someone tell me exactly how much a drive in/out 2zz swap is?
Not diy job.

It's not that simple, due to all the options and owners preferences on the swap parts,

I've made a big spreadsheet with all options and the price varies from cheapest (diy, buying a cheap car, recoup money by breaking what's left, weighing in the shell for scrap, cheap manifold, reuse stock exhaust etc) all the way to mega expensive (buy a low mileage car for ultimate piece of mind, ppe exhaust system, power fc ECU, LSD, loom adaptors etc etc)
I think the price varies by about £3k....  s:) s:)

[tommyzoom99]

just to give you my 2p

my engine died burning serious amounts of oil so decided to completely rebuild the car to track spec, stripped the engine which had the piston ring failure,

and decided to build up a high spec 1zz engine which so far has cost me around 5k including manifold exhaust and top spec internals, but should be running about 180bhp 190bhp+ when done im still building the rest of the car, not the most practical choice or cheapest but ive enjoyed the ride and now its my car built by me which makes all the difference IMO

shouls add if you add a standalone to the price it will be closer to 6k for the whole engine

cheers tommy

[vinp182]

Is the op wanting reliability or more performance or both?

This is the question you should be asking yourself, then you'll know what to do when you decide

[Escy]

just to give you my 2p

my engine died burning serious amounts of oil so decided to completely rebuild the car to track spec, stripped the engine which had the piston ring failure,

and decided to build up a high spec 1zz engine which so far has cost me around 5k including manifold exhaust and top spec internals, but should be running about 180bhp 190bhp+ when done I'm still building the rest of the car, not the most practical choice or cheapest but ive enjoyed the ride and now its my car built by me which makes all the difference IMO

shouls add if you add a standalone to the price it will be closer to 6k for the whole engine

cheers tommy

When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?

[Mr X]

This seems to be a bit of a thread hijack now   s8) s8)  but TBH, I don't see why people bother to fit a 2zz.

If you get a 2zz because you want more power I would guess, like with the 1zz, you wouldn't see much power over stock with just an exhaust, filter and map. After this, just like the 1zz, massive diminishing returns without going forced induction.

So you would spend 2k>4k on a 2zz engine & fitting down time and then 2k>4k again + down time to turbo it....
Could have just spent 2k>4k on turboing a 1zz and be at the same point?

From what I know (I have had a 2zz in the past) the stock blocks are almost the same but the bore size and heads that are different. So I would imagine the same result turboed is possible.

Also, as what's been pointed out already, tuning cars is a big drain hole when you come to sell it. Everything you spend will go down the pan. A very large % of people want a stock car due to insurance, potential bodge-jobs, servicing and reliability issues. so you're cutting off lots of penitential buyers by fitting a non-stock engine. This can be avoided if turboing a 1zz as you can remove it, sell the turbo kit making 50% of the cost back and then have a hell of a lot more penitential buyers.

If I were you, get matt to install one for you. Save the difference to spend on a holiday! Then get the turbocharger when you want a power hike.

 Same difference in the long run, money back +more buyers on resale!

[1979scotte]

This seems to be a bit of a thread hijack now   s8) s8)  but TBH, I don't see why people bother to fit a 2zz.

If you get a 2zz because you want more power I would guess, like with the 1zz, you wouldn't see much power over stock with just an exhaust, filter and map. After this, just like the 1zz, massive diminishing returns without going forced induction.

So you would spend 2k>4k on a 2zz engine & fitting down time and then 2k>4k again + down time to turbo it....
Could have just spent 2k>4k on turboing a 1zz and be at the same point?

From what I know (I have had a 2zz in the past) the stock blocks are almost the same but the bore size and heads that are different. So I would imagine the same result turboed is possible.

Also, as what's been pointed out already, tuning cars is a big drain hole when you come to sell it. Everything you spend will go down the pan. A very large % of people want a stock car due to insurance, potential bodge-jobs, servicing and reliability issues. so you're cutting off lots of penitential buyers by fitting a non-stock engine. This can be avoided if turboing a 1zz as you can remove it, sell the turbo kit making 50% of the cost back and then have a hell of a lot more penitential buyers.

Couldn't agree more. Thats why I did it.
If I were you, get matt to install one for you. Save the difference to spend on a holiday! Then get the turbocharger when you want a power hike.

 Same difference in the long run, money back +more buyers on resale!

[Alex Knight]

I don't see why people bother to fit a 2zz

I fitted a 2ZZ because it enhances the essential character of the car.

Lightweight Japanese sports cars and high-revving low torque 4-bangers go hand-in-hand in my opinion.

I'm not bothered about resale value, as the car only cost me £1400 to start with. These cars are so cheap now that resale value is already a massively diminished return.

It's a (very) easy swap that liberates another ~50HP for not a lot of money if done right. No brainer if you ask me.

Reliability has been 1st class, despite quite a few track miles so far, and oil consumption (including all track work) has been zero.

And they sound bloody amazing too...

[tommyzoom99]

just to give you my 2p

my engine died burning serious amounts of oil so decided to completely rebuild the car to track spec, stripped the engine which had the piston ring failure,

and decided to build up a high spec 1zz engine which so far has cost me around 5k including manifold exhaust and top spec internals, but should be running about 180bhp 190bhp+ when done I'm still building the rest of the car, not the most practical choice or cheapest but ive enjoyed the ride and now its my car built by me which makes all the difference IMO

shouls add if you add a standalone to the price it will be closer to 6k for the whole engine

cheers tommy

When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?

why not?

its been fun for me I enjoyed the project so far, I understand a 2zz might be a bit cheaper to fit a stock engine but didn't want to fit a 60-70k engine back in the car, would of needed a rebuild as im sure most 2zz have been thrashed, so would of worked out the roughly same price as I wouldn't of rebuilt the engine with stock parts, anyway I wanted to keep a 1zz for my project and build a high spec n/a 200bhp+ engine, its not abpout the money or selling it and getting it back that will never happen its about building my own car for fun and nothing else

each to there own and all that.

cheers tommy

[Anonymous]

just to give you my 2p

my engine died burning serious amounts of oil so decided to completely rebuild the car to track spec, stripped the engine which had the piston ring failure,

and decided to build up a high spec 1zz engine which so far has cost me around 5k including manifold exhaust and top spec internals, but should be running about 180bhp 190bhp+ when done I'm still building the rest of the car, not the most practical choice or cheapest but ive enjoyed the ride and now its my car built by me which makes all the difference IMO

shouls add if you add a standalone to the price it will be closer to 6k for the whole engine

cheers tommy

When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?

why not?

its been fun for me I enjoyed the project so far, I understand a 2zz might be a bit cheaper to fit a stock engine but didn't want to fit a 60-70k engine back in the car, would of needed a rebuild as im sure most 2zz have been thrashed, so would of worked out the roughly same price as I wouldn't of rebuilt the engine with stock parts, anyway I wanted to keep a 1zz for my project and build a high spec n/a 200bhp+ engine, its not abpout the money or selling it and getting it back that will never happen its about building my own car for fun and nothing else

each to there own and all that.

cheers tommy

ive got a good idea what your building there, been there done that. Also stick away from the cams stay stock unless you go aftermarket standalone ecu, as a piggy back wont run it well. I learnt the hard way.

[tommyzoom99]

When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?

why not?

its been fun for me I enjoyed the project so far, I understand a 2zz might be a bit cheaper to fit a stock engine but didn't want to fit a 60-70k engine back in the car, would of needed a rebuild as I'm sure most 2zz have been thrashed, so would of worked out the roughly same price as I wouldn't of rebuilt the engine with stock parts, anyway I wanted to keep a 1zz for my project and build a high spec n/a 200bhp+ engine, its not abpout the money or selling it and getting it back that will never happen its about building my own car for fun and nothing else

each to there own and all that.

cheers tommy

ive got a good idea what your building there, been there done that. Also stick away from the cams stay stock unless you go aftermarket standalone ecu, as a piggy back wont run it well. I learnt the hard way.

thanks for your insight to your 1zz building past, but got stage 2 cams from crower and got full management already to run my engine, I have also how you say "been there done that" and built a few high spec n/a engines before and matt at MWR has been most helpful so im sure it will be fine.

cheers tommy

[Anonymous]

Well to give you power ideas i made 187 on a poor map as it was a piggy back and standard injectors. But if you got a standalone ecu like a pfc then you will be fine as you say. Also i recommend 2zz injectors as they a 330cc against to stock 270cc. That's what held mine back on the power.

[tommyzoom99]

Oh that's some nice power from a 1zz(187bhp) I would be more than happy around the 180-190 bhp with a bit of luck it might creep into the 200bhp mark as i know these 1zz engines are good for 220bhp+ but my head isn't radical enough to reach those figures. i was looking at injectors as i haven't decided yet on what im going to run, i might change the pump and the rail as well, but if 2zz injectors are more than capable i might use them, be the cheapest option thanks  s:) s:)
Soon once i get a bit more time i will create a thread for the build of the car as i know im in the wrong place now after this thread got slightly hijacked. although it might take me as long to post all the pics as it took to build the bloody thing as i have rebuilt the whole car.

cheers tommy

[Escy]

just to give you my 2p

my engine died burning serious amounts of oil so decided to completely rebuild the car to track spec, stripped the engine which had the piston ring failure,

and decided to build up a high spec 1zz engine which so far has cost me around 5k including manifold exhaust and top spec internals, but should be running about 180bhp 190bhp+ when done I'm still building the rest of the car, not the most practical choice or cheapest but ive enjoyed the ride and now its my car built by me which makes all the difference IMO

shouls add if you add a standalone to the price it will be closer to 6k for the whole engine

cheers tommy

When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?

why not?

its been fun for me I enjoyed the project so far, I understand a 2zz might be a bit cheaper to fit a stock engine but didn't want to fit a 60-70k engine back in the car, would of needed a rebuild as I'm sure most 2zz have been thrashed, so would of worked out the roughly same price as I wouldn't of rebuilt the engine with stock parts, anyway I wanted to keep a 1zz for my project and build a high spec n/a 200bhp+ engine, its not abpout the money or selling it and getting it back that will never happen its about building my own car for fun and nothing else

each to there own and all that.

cheers tommy

I just can't get my head around it. You've spent 5k on your engine. You can buy 10 2nd hand 2zz's for that price. I like the idea of tuning an engine but it seems like a waste of time when there is the 2zz available. Unless of course you need to stay original block for motorsport regulations or something. The 2zz will put out the same power bone stock as your built up engine. It has had all the r&d work done by Yamaha/Toyota at the cost of millions to provide a reliable high power per litre engine. It'll offer a better torque curve than a cammed 190bhp 1zz would. Also, I'd doubt that a 1zz with all those uprated parts would be as reliable as a nicely worn in 2zz anyway, there always tends to be a weak link somewhere along the way when the tuning gets serious.

Like you say, each to their own and all that

[1979scotte]

When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?

why not?

its been fun for me I enjoyed the project so far, I understand a 2zz might be a bit cheaper to fit a stock engine but didn't want to fit a 60-70k engine back in the car, would of needed a rebuild as I'm sure most 2zz have been thrashed, so would of worked out the roughly same price as I wouldn't of rebuilt the engine with stock parts, anyway I wanted to keep a 1zz for my project and build a high spec n/a 200bhp+ engine, its not abpout the money or selling it and getting it back that will never happen its about building my own car for fun and nothing else

each to there own and all that.

cheers tommy

I just can't get my head around it. You've spent 5k on your engine. You can buy 10 2nd hand 2zz's for that price. I like the idea of tuning an engine but it seems like a waste of time when there is the 2zz available. Unless of course you need to stay original block for motorsport regulations or something. The 2zz will put out the same power bone stock as your built up engine. It has had all the r&d work done by Yamaha/Toyota at the cost of millions to provide a reliable high power per litre engine. It'll offer a better torque curve than a cammed 190bhp 1zz would. Also, I'd doubt that a 1zz with all those uprated parts would be as reliable as a nicely worn in 2zz anyway, there always tends to be a weak link somewhere along the way when the tuning gets serious.

Like you say, each to their own and all that

Each to there own indeed.
Sometimes it's not where your going but the journey that's important.
Hell for 5k I would probably have 300+ bhp 1zz turbo but that's just me.

[tommyzoom99]

When the 2zz exists I can't understand why you'd bother?

why not?

its been fun for me I enjoyed the project so far, I understand a 2zz might be a bit cheaper to fit a stock engine but didn't want to fit a 60-70k engine back in the car, would of needed a rebuild as I'm sure most 2zz have been thrashed, so would of worked out the roughly same price as I wouldn't of rebuilt the engine with stock parts, anyway I wanted to keep a 1zz for my project and build a high spec n/a 200bhp+ engine, its not abpout the money or selling it and getting it back that will never happen its about building my own car for fun and nothing else

each to there own and all that.

cheers tommy

I just can't get my head around it. You've spent 5k on your engine. You can buy 10 2nd hand 2zz's for that price. I like the idea of tuning an engine but it seems like a waste of time when there is the 2zz available. Unless of course you need to stay original block for motorsport regulations or something. The 2zz will put out the same power bone stock as your built up engine. It has had all the r&d work done by Yamaha/Toyota at the cost of millions to provide a reliable high power per litre engine. It'll offer a better torque curve than a cammed 190bhp 1zz would. Also, I'd doubt that a 1zz with all those uprated parts would be as reliable as a nicely worn in 2zz anyway, there always tends to be a weak link somewhere along the way when the tuning gets serious.

Like you say, each to their own and all that

hi

wellit does seem mad that is what i spent even to me  s:) s:)  but this does include manifold, decat pipe and exhaust, but not the managment

but i looked at a 2zz and they were priced between 1k and 2k depending on condition, i have heard good and bad stories about these engines there good engines but still have there weaknesses like any other, by the time i rebuild it and got a exhaust and manifold all the bits to fit it ect the cost would be marginal, but thats not really the issue the car and build so far have cost me almost 10k so you could argue why bother at all why dont i just buy a RX7 or GTR or s2000, i have had some of these cars before high power etc for me i want something that handled well and that i could make a project out of there something different about a car you build yourself, i didnt really plan to go so far with it i just ended up here and still going  s:) s:)  still got so much more to do as well but even in stock for the car is 1 of the best driving cars i hav driven and hopefully when im done its going to great

cheers tommy

[Wabbitkilla]

People seem to think the cure to anything, the result of enjoyable driving is a 2zz. Ffs get over it, it's an option but not necessarily the answer. You can spend money on rebuilding / building a respectable 1zz and have a known quantity engine that is fun for another 100K + miles, or buy a 2zz and all the mods and be buying an old worn one with someone else's problems.

Some people like getting the best out of the 1zz, good on them as it satisfies something within to do it. The engine will be perfect and has masses of character. Just because you've been sold the fantasy of 2zz doesn't make it come to reality.

I give kudos to people prepared to make the 1zz into the great engine it can be.

Each to their own.

When I bought my Ducati others were saying I was daft because it didn't have the outright power of their Jap crotch rockets. On paper it doesn't, but they and others really couldn't outpace me on the Duc,  it simple outclasses their handling and traction.

[1979scotte]

When I bought my Ducati others were saying I was daft because it didn't have the outright power of their Jap crotch rockets. On paper it doesn't, but they and others really couldn't outpace me on the Duc,  it simple outclasses their handling and traction.

Really?
Its like comparing a GTR to a 599.
Both great cars but wouldn't we truthfully all want the Ferrari?

Good on you for being different.
Both of you.

[MattPerformance]

It'll offer a better torque curve than a cammed 190bhp 1zz would. Also, I'd doubt that a 1zz with all those uprated parts would be as reliable as a nicely worn in 2zz anyway, there always tends to be a weak link somewhere along the way when the tuning gets serious.

I doubt the 2zz would make more torque - it has a shorter stroke.
This is not "tuning getting serious" - this is making the best n/a version of the engine that you can.  Until you get to forced induction you'll be nowhere near any weak links of the engine.

Each to there own indeed.
Sometimes it's not where your going but the journey that's important.
Hell for 5k I would probably have 300+ bhp 1zz turbo but that's just me.

I agree with the first two comments Scott, but you'd need a bit more than £5k for that kind of package  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

It's no secret that the T400X has had a preposterous amount of money sunk into it - enough to buy a GT3 - but the journey has been much more fun! (Oh and it's faster than the Porsche   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:  )