Subframe welded up. Opinions please...

adam p · January 30, 2015, 20:45

I've already posted about the problems with my recently purchased MR2. To cut a long story short, the dealer I bought it from agreed to replace the rear subframe under warranty but today I find out that all he's done is weld up existing one. There was a large hole in it, maybe 5 inches x 1.5 inches so can someone comment whether this would pass an mot or not just by looking at these pics and also comment on the quality of the welding. The car belongs to my wife and I couldn't live with myself if something happened to her. Before and after pics:

Ardent · January 30, 2015, 20:58

I imagine in your heart you all ready know the answers.
If agreed to replace. It should be replaced.

wotugonado · January 30, 2015, 21:07

Im no expert but Stevie Wonder should stick to making music^^^^...................................

1979scotte · January 30, 2015, 21:38

My crossmember is welded and it doesn't give me sleepless nights. Much smaller hole mind you.
However if i had noticed at time of purchase i would have insisted that the stealer replace it for a brand new one.
There are plenty more 2s out there this one is not a cherished example.
Get your wonga back mate.

Anonymous · January 30, 2015, 21:51

Would fail an mot as it not a continuous weld, also I doubt its a strong weld. As a welder might say pigeon s**t

adam p · January 30, 2015, 21:59

Ok thanks for the comments. The biggest problem is it would fail an mot s:(

s:( . I can only get the dealer on if the car is unroadworthy. If it's unroadworthy I have an option to contact the police and report him or I could contact vosa and let them have a look at what he's sold me. Neither option is going to be a good outcome for the dealer and he could get a fine of up to £5000. I presume this would class the car as 'unroadworthy'?

Anonymous · January 30, 2015, 22:01

If you really like the car and want to keep it, replace the cross member. It can be done without spending a lot of money! It's not a difficult job to do yourself

mrzwei · January 30, 2015, 23:31

Just my opinion, but we seem to be falling into a trap of expecting everything that a dealer sells to be in 'left the showroom condition', despite the age and after just spending a couple of grand. The (few) problems with the roadster are well documented, a rusty cross-member being likely so check it first. To buy the car and replace the cross-member would not be worth it to a dealer
We quote the Sale of Goods Act at every opportunity but is the rusty part simply known wear and tear? If it has an mot then it is reasonable for the dealer to advertise it as roadworthy.
You gave him the opportunity to put matters right and he has. The quality of mot welding repairs are not renown for their aesthetic appeal.
I'll probably get flamed for that but I agree with Mark.

normanh · January 30, 2015, 23:37

That weld is just crap there is no preparation that can be see, the weld has no penetration and I think in all honesty SW could have made a better job its just terrible and worse than pigeon sh** it looks more like bullsh**. I've been welding up motors for over 30 years in either gas or MIG so I have some practical knowledge in these matters.

Norman

mrzwei · January 30, 2015, 23:46

Bloody quality controllers! s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

But what do you expect the dealer to do?

If the customer complained to me again I would now just refund the money and sell the car on to somebody else. It wouldn't be worth the cost of fitting a new cross-member.

Wabbitkilla · January 31, 2015, 00:11

In the foreground where the toe control arm and bush is doesn't look quite right, can you get a couple of better pictures of this please?

tbh I was doubtful the dealer would be replacing the sub frame considering the value of the car so this is what I expected. Pigeon sh_t is an apt description, why can't people clean up welds these days? Mind I've seen some damn fine welding that didn't need cleaning up.

That mounting a very important so get a couple of pictures up

Joesson · January 31, 2015, 09:34

My understanding about the MOT is that the vehicle is roadworthy at the time of test.
On that basis it would be acceptable to advertise or offer a car as having an MOT certificate but not that it is roadworthy.
The road worthiness is something that we would " expect" given the existing MOT.
I suggest that if the MOT had been done during the dealers ownership then that would be a valid argument.
Irrespective of the MOT it should be reasonable to expect a dealer supplied car to be roadworthy, but how that can be enforced I am open to suggestion!
The legal term that seems to hold most water is caveat emptor.
That does not been the customer should roll over if he has been duped.

Anonymous · January 31, 2015, 09:45

The problem with subframe and mot, is that if the rear plastics are all fitted, the subframe can't be viewed, and they usually put that on the mot comments.

I'm not trying to defend the dealer, but bear that in mind. He MAY have taken the car for MOT in good faith

Anonymous · January 31, 2015, 10:47

But lets not forget the dealer might of put the mot on there

normanh · January 31, 2015, 15:03

That control arm looks like its held in place with a large wiring tie if I am not mistaken? Theres not bolt!

Norman

Anonymous · January 31, 2015, 15:15

I think that's just the nappy

Anonymous · January 31, 2015, 15:16

Or plastic trim in front of the nappy

normanh · January 31, 2015, 15:52

Maybe yes.

Norman

foxy-stoat · February 2, 2015, 14:54

Good grief, is this still going on?

Good secondhand cross members can be had for £80-£90, new ones for £230ish, no idea why the dealer tried to repair as this one looked well past it, I bet he didn't do a 4 wheel alinement after they re-fitted it either !

1979scotte · February 2, 2015, 17:47

Good point on the alignment that should be done too for peace of mind.

mikey P · February 2, 2015, 18:09

Quote from: "foxy-stoat"Good grief, is this still going on?

Good secondhand cross members can be had for £80-£90, new ones for £230ish, no idea why the dealer tried to repair as this one looked well past it, I bet he didn't do a 4 wheel alinement after they re-fitted it either !

Looking at the photos of repair this wasn't removed from the car for repair so alinement will be as it was, however I would agree doesn't look the best repair but hard to tell from photos. May well be OK for MOT though as things are often plated over, will only last a couple of years though compared to replacing and rust treating.

foxy-stoat · February 3, 2015, 11:38

If it wasn't removed before welding then I doubt they would of repaired it properly. If your worried about safety then take it to another MOT tester for their opinion. If its safe and passable then i guess you will have to live with it, if not then get VOSA involved.

There's a used cross member on the ebay (item number 271684144510) for £150, comes with both rear shocks, hubs, control arms and shafts. You could buy that one and sell the rest of the bits and get all your money back, rub it down and paint it with hammerite so it will look like this:

MartinC · February 3, 2015, 12:45

Quote from: "adam p"The car belongs to my wife and I couldn't live with myself if something happened to her.

By this statement alone, I would not be trusting this dealer to do anything more to the car. Either you get a full refund for the car, or you take the hit, and buy a replacement subframe and either fit it yourself or get it fitted by someone who knows what they are doing. I found a local(ish) garage who fitted mine for £100-£150 approx. I say approx. as he did some other bits on the car for me, so the total was a bit more.

Good luck

adam p · February 5, 2015, 11:09

Thanks for all of your advice. Camskill still have the subframes at £209 inc vat and my mechanic said it would be around £80 to fit it plus alignment. For the sake of £350 odd quid I think it will be better just to replace it. My wife's still loving the car s:)

s:) . Not sure whether to start a new topic or post this in this topic, but I think there may be an aftermarket LSD. On tight turns on full lock there is a clunking and it feels as though the wheels are hopping. I had an Integra with a 1.5 way LSD which did exactly the same thing. I presume a standard LSD wouldn't do this?

Anonymous · February 5, 2015, 13:37

Quote from: "adam p"Thanks for all of your advice. Camskill still have the subframes at £209 inc vat and my mechanic said it would be around £80 to fit it plus alignment. For the sake of £350 odd quid I think it will be better just to replace it. My wife's still loving the car s:) s:) . Not sure whether to start a new topic or post this in this topic, but I think there may be an aftermarket LSD. On tight turns on full lock there is a clunking and it feels as though the wheels are hopping. I had an Integra with a 1.5 way LSD which did exactly the same thing. I presume a standard LSD wouldn't do this?

Does the clunking and hopping only do it at low speed when the weather is really cold? mine always used to do it when I ran Yoko tyres, it wasn't anything to do with LSD or tracking......just cold tyres hopping s:wink: :wink: s:wink: