Pre-mapping mod/tweak advice

AndyM · February 14, 2015, 17:35

Hi,

My insurance renewal is imminent which means it's time to crack open that declared mod list and add all my new stuff I've got to fit (buy soon).

One of the big things this time round is a Greddy E-manage Blue piggyback system which I intend to take for a proper map pretty much as soon as it's on the car. However, in the run up to that I want to try and get as many of my performance tweaks done/ready to go so I can get it mapped once and be largely done with it (until any major changes of plan, e.g. turbo/SC).

My current setup: decatted stock manifold, TTE exhaust, markiii pipe and K&N filter

Bits I already have to go on: Apexi 'PPE style' induction kit to replace the markiii pipe and K&N

Things I'm considering: 2zz injectors, stainless manifold, sports cat

I'm pretty (read: completely) new to proper engine tuning so have a few questions...

2zz injectors... worthwhile doing? I presume I can run them on the way to the mappers even if the engine is running a bit rich for the journey? This would allow me to fit them the day before the map and not be trying to stress about it in the mappers car park. s;)

s;)

Stainless manifold... I can't afford a Zero at the moment (which would be my preference) but I can't decide if it's worth going for a Toyo sports manifold in the meantime to remove those precat voids in the stock header. I'll be honest, I haven't personally experienced the flat spotting some have with my current setup and am pretty happy with it so I'm tempted to keep it as is and just swap out to a proper Zero in the future when it becomes financially feasible. Thoughts?

Sports cat... I know nothing about these really. How much performance gain in reality do they offer? Is there likely to be any MOT issues? I assume if I get myself an old standard cat pipe and a 200 cell sports cat I could take it to an exhaust fabricators and they would cut out/weld in place as required for not huge money?

Anything else relatively low cost I should be considering as well to gain a few extra gee-gees? Input greatly received. s:)

s:)

Cheers,
Andy

cabbydave · February 15, 2015, 12:21

If you want some 2zz injectors I've got a good set spare.

Jay67 · February 15, 2015, 12:30

Andy if you're going for a cheap stainless manifold I'd go for one on ebay shipped from the US, they have the support brackets, the Toyo one doesn't, or at least didn't when I was shopping for one, there's usually only a few quid in it and all probably made in the same factory in China so quality will be the same. That's just my two penneth. s:)

s:)

cabbydave · February 15, 2015, 12:36

I know a man in Blackpool with a trd one for sale if you want a manifold

AndyM · February 15, 2015, 13:19

Dave, interested in the injectors if they are decent. How much do you want for them? I'd certainly consider a TRD header, price would be a key factor though. Are they a member here?

Jay, sorry that was the one I meant actually. s:)

s:) I just can't decide if the gain I'll get is worth it compared to hanging on for a while and eventually going with something more performance focused like the Zero (or TRD).

4dvti · February 15, 2015, 13:37

Are the oem roadster injectors 'saturated' or 'unsaturated' type? And what about the 2zzge injectors? You will need to wire in a resistor system in if the transfer is from saturated to unsaturated.

Why not drive to the tuners on the stock ecu and in jectors and then swap them over at the tuners?

AndyM · February 15, 2015, 14:17

Quote from: "4dvti"Are the oem roadster injectors 'saturated' or 'unsaturated' type? And what about the 2zzge injectors? You will need to wire in a resistor system in if the transfer is from saturated to unsaturated.

Why not drive to the tuners on the stock ecu and in jectors and then swap them over at the tuners?

As far as I know the 2zz injectors are a direct swap and don't need any work arounds (e.g. people use them in the MAF riser mod like-for-like).

I can upload a basic E-manage map myself onto the piggyback for the purpose of driving the car so I'm not too worried about that (plus I don't fancy messing about with the wiring at the tuners) however doing the injectors there may indeed be the best route (as long as I read up on what I'm doing first s;)

s;) ).

loadswine · February 15, 2015, 14:50

Do you fancy making me an offer for a zero, sports cat and Janspeed?
If you are going to go for mapping, you really want to get all your mods tied up first, so that one mapping session does the job, or it can get costly.

AndyM · February 15, 2015, 15:37

Quote from: "loadswine"Do you fancy making me an offer for a zero, sports cat and Janspeed?

It's tempting but I know I can't currently afford what that system is worth. Surely you'll want the Zero as part of your future plans anyway?

loadswine · February 15, 2015, 15:58

Depends how future you go! It has to be a V6 eventually, but not quite yet.

4dvti · February 16, 2015, 22:13

Quote from: "AndyM"
Quote from: "4dvti"Are the oem roadster injectors 'saturated' or 'unsaturated' type? And what about the 2zzge injectors? You will need to wire in a resistor system in if the transfer is from saturated to unsaturated.

Why not drive to the tuners on the stock ecu and in jectors and then swap them over at the tuners?

As far as I know the 2zz injectors are a direct swap and don't need any work arounds (e.g. people use them in the MAF riser mod like-for-like).

I can upload a basic E-manage map myself onto the piggyback for the purpose of driving the car so I'm not too worried about that (plus I don't fancy messing about with the wiring at the tuners) however doing the injectors there may indeed be the best route (as long as I read up on what I'm doing first s;) s;) ).

That sounds all good then pal, if they are a direct swap with no fiddling. What kind of gains are you hoping for?

AndyM · February 17, 2015, 01:58

Quote from: "4dvti"That sounds all good then pal, if they are a direct swap with no fiddling. What kind of gains are you hoping for?

I've not really set any solid expectations to be honest (or baseline to work from yet). 150 seems achievable based on the 1zz NA dyno results thread.

lamcote · February 17, 2015, 09:24

Are you going to map it on high octane fuel or 95 octane?

My guess is that simply using high octane fuel might give the biggest power increase for a remap such as this.

4dvti · February 17, 2015, 10:39

Yes, I'd agree with lamcote. Better fuel will yield better results. The only downside is that you'll have to stick to that fuel in the future.

black2 · February 17, 2015, 13:14

Hi AndyM,

Sounds like we are going for the exact same setup (minus a remap for me) s:(

s:(

I am going for Markiii, K&N Panel Filter, MAF riser and injectors, Decat manifold and high flow sports cat.

wasn't sure if a piggyback + map will be worth it... so interested in finding out the results.

my next investment will probably be coil-overs and even more bracing.

I am going down the weight reduction and changing the distribution to suite my driving style AND making my own aerodynamics based on physics!!! all exciting stuff.

Wish you the best of luck - if you could give me a heads up on a comparison of a before/after the map i would appreciate it (to see if its worth investing in).

Maybe in a couple of years... i might supercharge s:P

s:P

lamcote · February 17, 2015, 13:19

What about doing two maps, one for 95 octane and one for 99 (if the piggyback can do switchable maps)? It will obviously cost more for mapping but you could have an economy map on 95 (running fairly lean) to recoup some of the cost, and an out and out power map for 99 (running rich and aggressive ignition timing), I would guess that might make quite a difference and doesn't need any parts to be purchased, beyond the piggyback itself.

I'd be very interested to know what results it would produce.

1979scotte · February 17, 2015, 14:29

My very tongue in cheek advice.
Go big or go home.
Get a V6 in there.

Very interested to see the results. Some members I've spoken to have been very disappointed with their NA tunning attempts.
Hope you fare better.

AndyM · February 17, 2015, 14:31

Fuel wise, I'm probably going to map it on 95. I use both and I know the 99 may give a little gain but I'm putting 16k average a year on the car at the moment for work so need to be a bit mindful of the weekly fill up costs and not tie myself to one. The Emanage I have doesn't have switchable maps as far as I know unfortunately but that would be a nice feature to have. I am intending a two stage map anyway though so I might go up to 99 on that one further down the line.

Black2, yep, sounds similar. Ultimately a map will tie everything together and hopefully give you the best out of the mods you have in place. Whether or not it's worth the cost of the unit and map is subjective, we'll see. In general N/A is rarely the cheapest horse/£ route so it's more about deciding your limit and then teasing out what you can. s:)

s:)

Longer term I'm quite tempted with a Rotrex SC but it definitely won't be until I have a second car to take on the donkey work of my mileage (and when I can also afford a new short block for it to go on).

Aero is a tough but interesting one. It's one thing understanding the physics/principles but it's different thing actually engineering solutions properly so they put those principles in action. For example very few wings will actually make a positive difference (and usually only the ones sitting high) and things like diffusers will only generate proper venturi effect if run with a sealed floor (which we don't have on these cars as standard). On top of all that it only really works with high flow so general road use will see little benefit (you don't need venturi on a motorway for example). Don't get me wrong though, I'm not knocking it! I'd love to see some properly proven aero parts become available, I'm just a bit skeptical about how feasible it is in reality. s:)

s:) Make sure you get some pictures/info up about your experiments!

AndyM · February 17, 2015, 14:37

Scott, you do certainly have to temper your expectations for massive gains with NA. Bolt on things like turbos are the quick/easy way to make bigger numbers, however there is some joy in the challenge of getting some NA horses on the board. s:)

s:) I have lots of the bits already so I figure why not have a go.

I do fancy trying a V6. You get huge gains but it's a different ballpark cost wise though and does change the character of the car from what I've heard (not in a bad way, just different). To be honest if I was going down the crazy/expensive swap route the concept of a supercharged K20 gets me a bit frisky ( m https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeK8MExNTlE m ). s;)

s;)

1979scotte · February 17, 2015, 14:54

Cost no option it's a close run thing between a k20 and a 2gr for me think the oral delights offered by the v6 swing it for me.
I was following a very standard looking mk2 the other day. It accelerated so fast away from me i thought i was in reverse. When i had the opportunity to talk to the owner i discovered it had a 2gr.
I don't like Mk2s but i want that one.
Anyway back on topic Andy before you have to Mod your own thread.
Sorry.

4dvti · February 17, 2015, 18:25

Well, this is my engine bay

4dvti · February 17, 2015, 18:29

what's a 2gr motor?

1979scotte · February 17, 2015, 19:34

Quote from: "4dvti"what's a 2gr motor?

Its a 3.5l V6 built by Toyota and used by Lotus.
When swapped into an MR2 power outputs of over 300bhp NA are common.

Nice honda motor but what have you done with the supercharger? s;)

s;)

cabbydave · February 17, 2015, 19:37

Quote from: "1979scotte"Cost no option it's a close run thing between a k20 and a 2gr for me think the oral delights offered by the v6 swing it for me.
I was following a very standard looking mk2 the other day. It accelerated so fast away from me i thought i was in reverse. When i had the opportunity to talk to the owner i discovered it had a 2gr.
I don't like Mk2s but i want that one.
Anyway back on topic Andy before you have to Mod your own thread.
Sorry.

You want to go in my mates MK1 with a 2gr in it that's mental.

4dvti · February 17, 2015, 19:53

Quote from: "1979scotte"
Quote from: "4dvti"what's a 2gr motor?

Its a 3.5l V6 built by Toyota and used by Lotus.
When swapped into an MR2 power outputs of over 300bhp NA are common.

Nice honda motor but what have you done with the supercharger? s;) s;)

It's on the other motor in the brother's eg s;)

s;)

I'm more of a turbo guy myself. It'll be cheaper than rotrex for me to execute, even with quality parts. Anyway, my apologies for hijacking the thread.

The v6 conversions sounds like a very good conversion. How does it affect the roadster's factory weight distribution?