will i end up in a hedge?

[Anonymous]

Oh and if you do find yourself in a spin dont worry, it will be instinct to correct it  s:D s:D  

You dont need to remember anything you read here because instinctivly you will..

1. Come off the accelerator (but remember not competly, just enough)
2. Steer in the opposite direction a bit.

It will be natural because you will try to correct what you last did which is over-rev and over-steer.

[roger]

You are so right, I like the calm way better. Can I order parts like exhaust or springs from the UK or would it be cheaper to order them in the US? Also is there a difference in US versus UK models? I like the dual exhaust I've seen here but don't know where to go to order it. Sure do appreciate your putting up with my newness.........Tom

Generally speaking, if you can buy the item in the US & the UK, our cost will be approximately twice yours, and its getting worse as the $ is nearly 2 to the £. However, as a newbie here as well, it seems the real enthusiast buys from wherever he can find the item he wants.

Check out  w www.MRS-passion.com w  dieamond is a regular on this site though prices are in euros.

There are differences (like the side on which we put the steering wheel   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  , sorry. But I guess you just have to be very careful when ordering or specifying, just to be sure - especially if you are getting into major mechanics.

I am glad you like our way, but I am afraid there may well be too many of our country cousins over your side of the pond who will never change.

Keep coming - different points of view are always welcomed.

roger

[MRMike]

Well I nearly kissed goodbye to picking up the 350Z earlier on today.  Driving on a dry, straight by pass that I always drive on,  the car literally jack knifed to the right 90 degrees, I caught it, then caught the second slide as it fishtailed.  All at 80mph. I constantly hang the back end out in corners etc, but never have i experienced this on a dry, straight road at such high speed.  I know that if I hadn't been on diving training courses in the past the car would now be a right off as it was heading for a wall.  My girlfriend was in the car as well, which could have been really nasty.  

Really scared me half to death! So for the last week of MR2 ownership I'm taking it very steady!

I'd take this opportunity at Lotus to see how your car handles when its on the edge, as you might need it like i did today. What happens in those few seconds can mean the difference between a right off and a mere sweaty brow.

[Anonymous]

Had mine for two weeks in the summer and in the first bit of rain I learned on a motorway sliproad that if you take a corner with just a little bit more boot than usual how quick the back end can get away from you!!! I actually joined the motorway in a snaking motion as I was trying to over correct the sideways motion and all three lanes slowed down as I joined the motorway!!  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:  Did not hit anything, but I now know to give my 2 respect in the wet! Does not apply in the dry!... yet?

[roger]

Mike and Steve

2 places on  w www.1stlotus.co.uk w  for 14th February 2005  s:D s:D    s:D s:D    s:wink: :wink: s:wink:    s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

roger

[MRMike]

I'll have a think about it Roger..could do with learning the Z.  Though it's on my birthday!  I'll let you know if i can make it.

[roger]

I'll have a think about it Roger..could do with learning the Z.  Though it's on my birthday!  I'll let you know if i can make it.

My birthday on the 7th. Thats why I'm doing it. Any way you would be home by 6. Enough time to get out and celebrate. Go on....

roger

[mrsmr2]

Funny, I experience understeer much more than oversteer.  Came back late tonight and the roads were quite slippy.  Tried going round a large roundabout a few times and increasing the speed just added to the understeer.  Managed to turn off a small roundabout using understeer alone!

When trying to control the understeer, I get a bit of a four wheel drift - but not for very long.  The back feels like its going to do something but it doesn't.

OK, there is oversteer, mostly on tight corners or t-junctions and too many revs - but mostly the 2 doesn't generate enough serious torque early enough to spin the back end at every corner.  I would expect the turbo to be lethal in this area.

And, I am very respectful of the car, no barrelling in to corners at stupid speeds when the road isn't dry.

Looking forward to the 1stLotus day on 14th Feb with Roger to experiment and learn where the oversteer really is.

MRMike, please bring the 350.

Regards


Jason

[Anonymous]

Is there a website like this in the USA?

http://www.socalspyders.com is a very laid back, very neighbourly board.....with a little bit of a younger slant......

http://www.spyderchat.com is a bit wilder, more manic board.....you'll get a bit of everything there.....it's a little off-putting at first, but it is still a great community and a fantastic resource.....

http://www.mr2ownersclub.com is another great site, but it's really geared more towards mkI and mkII cars......

[filcee]

Funny, I experience understeer much more than oversteer.

Don't enter the corners quite so fast, or try 'trail braking' so the front stays loaded up.  This will give it more grip and quicker turn in at the front - just watch you don't lose the back as you get on the gas.
Remember the '2 is designed to handle safely for the average motorist - who will be used to a FWD grocery-getter, which will always understeer out of corners. At least it will unless you have a big lift off in the middle of a corner when near the limits of grip.  Then it will go backwards into the scenery like everything else.

[mrsmr2]

I'll probably try some different tyres when I change them.  I'm on the RE040s at the moment and I've found them to be great tyres for both dry roads (loads of grip at front), and the wet (surprising amount of grip).  It's the current slippy, damp roads that are causing increased understeer.  

I guess I need to understand mid engine handling a bit more.  I think, it's the lack of weight at the front that creates most of this problem.

I'm respectful of trail braking in these conditions, but used it alot in the dry.

Last week I had an enthusiastic female A3 TDI driver try to keep up with me on a dual carriageway punctuated by roundabouts.  I had to be really carefull with the back end exiting the roundabouts and I would expect the A3 to probably match (or maybe be slightly faster) on the exits.  Ultimately, there wasn't a lot in it.  In the dry I wouldn't have even backed off.  However, this is all good as it's starting to introduce me to real rear wheel drive characteristics - something that I've found lacking from my 2 until now.

Regards


Jason

[Anonymous]

Right, what's trail braking???

I very well may do it - but haven't heard of this term...

[Anonymous]

Buy Goodyear F1's if you live in the UK..

oh my theyre good  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

ive had them for a year now and they have never let me down, just back from a damp blast though the scottish Grampians upto (120mph!) and still alive  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:  

ahh well, live another day,

(if the rozzers are watching is wasne me)

[filcee]

Right, what's trail braking???

I very well may do it - but haven't heard of this term...

When you are still braking slightly as you turn in to the corner.  By slightly I mean a handful of % of max. braking potential.  As follows:

At the start of the braking zone you put the brakes on, hard, as the car slows you start to come of the brakes so that the nose starts to come back up so that the car is level front-to-back. You keep coming off the brakes until you are almost completely off them at the end of the braking zone.  The front-to-back attitude of the car is as good as level, with only a small handful of extra % over the fornt wheels.  For example, if the car was standing still on a four-wheel balance it would be 50/50 front-rear split.  By trail braking you want to upset that balance just enough to make the front heavier/back lighter, say 51/49, but only just as you turn into the corner.  This weights up the front of the car to give the front tyres more bite as you turn in, hence reducing understeer.  The skill is not getting the car too far out of balance at the turn in - 'cos if it's too far wrong, then that usually means a spin will follow.

Hopefully, that's clear.  If not, I'm sure juansolo will be along in a minute to put me right.

Also, this is not the sort of thing to practice on the highway.  The run off areas are crap, and there's always going to be someone coming the other way when you get it wrong.  Besides which, on a circuit or airfield the braking zones are helpfully marked with large boards and cones  s;-) ;-) s;-)  Suggest you sign up for roger's North Weald trip so you have plenty of room to try this out.

[Anonymous]

Aaaaaaaah!

Cheers for that!   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  

I do that sometimes - but as you say, you have to use extreme caution that you don't upset the balance of the car too much!

And now I know what it's called too!   s8) s8)

[Tem]

Oh and if you do find yourself in a spin dont worry, it will be instinct to correct it  s:D s:D  

You dont need to remember anything you read here because instinctivly you will..

1. Come off the accelerator (but remember not competly, just enough)
2. Steer in the opposite direction a bit.

It will be natural because you will try to correct what you last did which is over-rev and over-steer.

I don't think you get that natural instinct when you're born  s;) s;)  You have to learn it by driving a RWD car...  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:

[Anonymous]

vibratingsky wrote:
Oh and if you do find yourself in a spin dont worry, it will be instinct to correct it  

You dont need to remember anything you read here because instinctivly you will..

1. Come off the accelerator (but remember not competly, just enough)
2. Steer in the opposite direction a bit.

It will be natural because you will try to correct what you last did which is over-rev and over-steer.


I don't think you get that natural instinct when you're born  You have to learn it by driving a RWD car...

I ment common sense! i forget that driving isn't a thing your born to do!  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Tem]

I ment common sense! i forget that driving isn't a thing your born to do!  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

I knew what you meant, just pulling your leg  s;) s;)

Anyway, Slidey said in the first post that he never had a RWD before, so I'm not sure how easy/natural counter steering is when the ass snaps loose for the first time  s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Anonymous]

better to find out in the wet at 25mph than at 65mph  s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

actually i occasionally get snap oversteer at 10-15mph at the right roundabouts, good practice for someone new to the car! It has to be real damp and greasy though.. like every street in Scotland this time of year  s:( s:(

[juansolo]

Sensible stuff:

1/  Do all your braking and gear changing in a straight line *before* you get to a corner.
2/  Slow in, fast out of corners.  It's quicker and safer.
3/  Keep the car balanced when going around a corner.  Big inputs to any of the controls can spit you off the road.  Be smooth.
4/  Going sideways takes practice.  Learn on an airfield.  It's not big or clever to do it on a public road.
5/  Don't take the piss in the wet.  You can run out of grip very, very quickly.  Keep it slow and steady.

Not so sensible stuff:

Trail braking *waves at filcee* is braking as you turn into a corner (remember number one of no-no's up there).  The idea is that you transfer some of the weight of the car over the front wheels lightening up the back.  This will make your car turn in sharply and, depending on what you do next, can result in a nice four wheel drift and you gently feed in the power or a leary 90 degree slide as you feed in a shit load of power and apply a lot more lock.

It all comes down to throttle control.  A binary throttle is not a good thing, but if you've come from a hot hatch I guarentee this is what you'll do.  It's all or nothing.  For instance, you need to apply power if the backend lets go, but you need to do this in a progressive manner.  Stamping on the accellerator and steering into the skid will simply result in the car spining.

"over correction"  No such thing.  It's another way of saying "I've run out of talent".  The sooner you accept this and learn what you did wrong, the better...

For example, The tank slapper - You've started to slide, you think you've got it then it snaps the other way, which can go on and on, and on.  The car has not done this to you.  You haven't caught the inital slide.  Whether this is because you haven't got enough lock on, haven't got it on quick enough or have applied too much power is irrelevant, but what you have done, I guarentee you, is panic and either lifted straight off the gas or, worse still, touched the brakes.  The weight has shot to the front of the car with it's wheels pointing somewhere into the skid and the backend snaps around to follow them now that there is no weight there.

From this point there are two options.  Firstly there it to try and recover the skid.  These buggers are very hard to get back and all the time you are powering on in god knows what direction, probably toward a tyre wall.  The second on is to apply the first rule of spinning: When in a spin, both feet in.  That is, stamp hard on the brake and clutch.  The idea is that you lock all the wheels and come to a halt asap.  The other thing here is that you'll skid in the direction of travel regardless of which way your wheels are pointing as opposed to 400 yds up the road somewhere.

It needs to all become second nature and it only does that with practice.  Which is what airfields and skid pans are for.  Learn your car, learn how to feel it and control it, learn what to do when you f**k it up.  Which you will, everyone and I mean everyone f**ks it up from time to time.  Then and only then take this knowledge to a track.  By this time you'll probably have got gooning out of your system, but then even the best of us have lapses every now and then and enjoy just to throw it around a bit.

FWIW, doing any of this on a road is dangerous, don't.  

Spend a bit of cash and do it in a controlled environment.

[juansolo]

Tangent:  Trail braking

Return of the crap videoage.

This is not a particularly good lap of Anglesey circuit that was done many moons ago now but it shows what I mean. (it is an mpeg 4.  Plays in quicktime, VLC and mPlayer on the Mac, god knows what on the PC).

http://www.juansolo.demon.co.uk/Stuff/Anglesey.mpg  Right click and download.  7.55MB



Righty, we start on the main straight (keeping to the right until after the blend line) and head straight into the double apex of School corner in fourth at about 75mph.  You can go faster but I only learned later that you can enter the corner much deeper and carry much more speed through it.  It's very, very ballsy though, touching triple figures in a Caterfield.  Anyhow the idea is to keep the wheel at a fairly constant angle and you should end up on the left hand side of the track for entry into Abbots which is a sharp right.

You have very little space here to get your downchange to third out of the way and a dab of the brakes.  To flick the car out I'm actually turning in sharply under braking.  You should be sideways before the apex.  Power oversteer out of a corner is easy if you have the power, it takes a little more commitment in a stock Mr2 to make it really slide.  Do it right and you can slide out over to the kerb.  Actually taking it properly is much, much faster, but less fun.

Next up is the Radar complex.  Mucho fun here.  You're over to the right on entry to the sharp left and you want to be on the left hand side of the circuit ready for the imediate 90 degree right (you can straight line the left kink that follows it).  Here I'm a little more vicious to get the car sliding into the right.  Change into 2nd with a hard dab on the brakes, steer into the skid balanced on the throttle then power out.  Again, actually entering the corner properly (I'm carrying too much speed and using the slide to slow down) is much faster.  But then it doesn't look half as cool as this:



The rest of the lap is nothing to write home about.  If you're feeling particularly destructive you can get massive slidage around the hairpin (the tightest in the country).  But in the standard car that really calls for brutal trail braking or comic tyre pressures.

So then, who's up for Anglesey 2005?  You've got the perfect car for the circuit and no excuses.

[Tem]

Trail braking *waves at filcee* is braking as you turn into a corner (remember number one of no-no's up there).  The idea is that you transfer some of the weight of the car over the front wheels lightening up the back.  This will make your car turn in sharply and, depending on what you do next, can result in a nice four wheel drift and you gently feed in the power or a leary 90 degree slide as you feed in a s**t load of power and apply a lot more lock.

IMHO, Karting is a great way to practice this  s8) s8)

[roger]

Practice what Juansolo preaches   s8) s8)  .

Still 2 places left at North Weald (see Events), especially useful for anybody thinking of Anglesey 2005 I guess.

I paid them today, and was told that we can keep the places reserved for club members until 28 days before (January 14th?). After that they are taken off the reservation list and made available to the "public".

If anybody wishes to provisonally book (and make a final decision once Christmas is over), the same rules apply. Pay by January 14 or lose your booking.

roger

[Anonymous]

I quite fancy doing this, though i won't be able to give a defo answer till after crimbo.

I'll keep an eye out in case the places don't get filled up with more decisive chaps.

[mph]

Practice what Juansolo preaches   s8) s8)  .

Hear hear. Roads are not places to play or practise on.

I'm an average driver as far as I'm concerned. One skip-pan course, three days at North Weald and 15 track days later, I'm now beginning to get comfortable driving the '2 with any reasonable control, and even then I'm not all that consistent - just ask SteveJ about his recent view from the passenger seat of the pitlane tyre wall at Donington.