eManage Blue on closed/open loop?

[shnazzle]

Stupid question maybe but how does a piggyback ECU distinguish between open and closed loop?

Will any adjustments made by the piggyback apply regardless of temperature, throttle, etc?

[Davegtst]

I did some research into this with the emanage.  With our stock ecu's they don't work very well.   The stock ecu will in a short time cancel out any changes you make to the emanage.  I've made a small box for mine that puts the ecu in open loop when under boost which stops the ecu cancelling out my adjustments.  Have a search of my posts.

[shnazzle]

I did some research into this with the emanage.  With our stock ecu's they don't work very well.   The stock ecu will in a short time cancel out any changes you make to the emanage.  I've made a small box for mine that puts the ecu in open loop when under boost which stops the ecu cancelling out my adjustments.  Have a search of my posts.

Nice! Really? Not sure how as the emanage will "lie" both ways.

300 quid well spent then....
Having said that, I'm assuming it depends how big of an adjustment you make. The ECU won't be able to compensate for the changes necessary for bigger injectors or stage1 cams.

There's definitely a noticeable increase in power as it stands though

[Davegtst]

I believe even if you make a small adjustments the stock ecu will try and revert back to its original settings.  It feels great for a while but over time it will cancel it out.  By fooling the ecu into open loop (feeding it a wide open throttle signal when it isn't) it won't try to re learn.

[Davegtst]

As mine is a turbo I fool the ecu into open loop when it reaches 0.5 psi boost and above.   Under 0.5 psi it runs as stock.

[shnazzle]

Wouldn't it then just be a case of resetting the ECU every once in a while?
I still struggle to understand how the ECU compensates,as the ECU never gets the actual values back

[Davegtst]

The ecu constantly takes readings from the o2 sensors and adjusts the fueling.   Say you richen the mixture via the emanage the stock ecu will lean it back off again to get it back to how it should originally be.

[shnazzle]

But my point is, doesn't the emanage manipulate the o2 sensor voltage to make the ecu think it shouldn't lean it out or enrichen

[Davegtst]

Nope the emanage blue doesn't have an 02 input.   Not as standard it doesn't.  It intercepts the injector signals from the ecu and either lengthens or shortens the pulse.  You would need an emanage ultimate for O2 input.   It can be done with the blue but you need the latest 1.49 firmware and a fair bit of research.

[Davegtst]

You can off course re set the ecu every day but the stock ecu will be cancelling out your adjustments every time you use the car.

[shnazzle]

I might be kidding myself to make me feel better for what this costs me, but surely there's a purpose to the emanage blue?
Why would anybody spend >350 quid getting a professional outfit to map their em-b when it is utterly wasted after a decent drive across all loads/revs?

Edit: bearing in mind my stock map does not know about the removed pre-cats and TTE exhaust. And it will especially not know what to do with crower cams and my potential future experimentation with bigger injectors.

[Davegtst]

It won't compensate for the lack of pre cats as i assume you still have the main cat that is working properly.  If you removed the main cat as well without fooling the ecu into thinking that it was still there you would at the very least bring on the warning light.  
Our stock ecu's seem to be extremely fussy about keeping the emissions within factory limits.   Not all ecu's (especially older cars) are the same and they won't relearn as ours do.   I'm afraid it makes the emb on our cars a bit pointless without tricking the ecu so it doesn't re learn.

[Davegtst]

You can fool the ecu into not seeing the o2 sensor after say 4k revs.   That way anything over 4k you would be using the emb settings.

[lamcote]

I think what happens is that the stock ECU will only compensate for any changes that are made while the standard ECU is in closed loop. Closed loop only applies under relatively low load situations eg part throttle and relatively low revs, when you don't really want maximum power anyway because you are just pootling around. Once you use full throttle and or lots of revs the ECU goes into open loop and the emanage then comes into play exactly when you want it.

The moral of the story is to find a mapper who knows exactly when the stock ECU goes into open loop and only makes any adjustments beyond that point, otherwise you are paying for time spent mapping at low load and you won't get any benefits in the low load scenario because the standard ECU will offset the changes.

[Davegtst]

It true it will only compensate in closed loop.  Our cats are in closed loop a lot more that you realise though.   Easiest way to check is get a Bluetooth obd reader and the torque app.

[lamcote]

Absolutely, I imagine mine is in closed loop for 99% of the time I drive it as I only use it on the road, the point is that the only time you want the benefit of the Emanage tuning is for the time when you are able to use full throttle or rev past maybe 4000 rpm, but that is exactly when it does kick in, so no problem.

[shnazzle]

I can definitely live with that. The gains I've seen are definitely in the 4000k+ region. Im going to fashion a cable and read the map off, I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly the case

[lamcote]

You need to find all points on the map where any trim is being applied. I don't think the base map will show you where open loop kicks in, but if you can see trims being applied to the base map I think that point must be in closed loop.....
unless the stock ECU can apply trims to the entire map based on its closed loop data, which I am not sure about.

Can anyone confirm this? This also brings me on to another point below;

Rarding my mapping comment above, one thing I should say is, I am not sure whether the ECU can apply a trim across the entire base map (affecting both closed and open loop settings), based only on what it sees in closed loop. If it can, this could indeed make the Emanage entirely useless if it is wrongly set up, (so it would be more than just wasted mapping time in closed loop as I suggested),  but I have never seen anything to confirm or deny this. Either way, best to go to someone who knows 1zzs.

[keljon]

from what i understand the stock ecu does indeed apply fuel trims to the open loop areas of the map based on the trims in the closed loop map areas. this is where the emanage ultimate is superior for much larger than stock injectors as the EMU drives them direct when in open loop

[shnazzle]

Wife just drove it for the first time today with the emanage and I got a text saying that the car felt a lot quicker and whether this was because of "my tinkering".
So it's obviously working. ANd she didn't take it over 4000k... riddle me that. IT's been out for quite a few full throttle drives so far.
THe car is much more lively and fun

[Davegtst]

I'm does seem that the stock ecu compensates on open as well as closed loop.   It seems to take a lot longer for the trims to take effect though.   I reset my ecu probably every 6 weeks because of this.  I did a little check on the way home tonight.   You can easily be in closed loop above 5k revs.  I think it's above 80 % throttle that it will change to into open loop but there may be other parameters too.

[lamcote]

Wow I didn't know the Emanage drove the injectors directly. Presumably it would do that for any injector including the standard ones. Is that just the Emanage  Ultimate from the Emanage range? Ie not the Emanage Blue?

[lamcote]

Shnazzle I think everyone agrees that the entire map (open and closed loop) can be tuned, hence your results. The question is, how long will it be before the stock ECU wipes out the changes, if at all?  If it does,  it's likely to be a matter of weeks rather than days or  hours because the ECU looks over the  long term for changes which it believes need to be adjusted for so it monitors things over an extended period before applying any changes.

[lamcote]

Davegtst, that's very useful information.

Do people think therefore that if a mapper only makes any changes to the map at 80% throttle and above (ie where it seems to definitely be in open loop) that the stock ECU could not then overwrite the new map because no changes would ever be seen by the stock ECU?

Alternatively you use the vtec wire to trick the Emanage into open loop earlier for more options, like some clever person on here did, was that you Dave, I can't remember who reported that?

[shnazzle]

Shnazzle I think everyone agrees that the map can be tuned, hence your results. The question is, how long will it be before the stock ECU wipes out the changes, if at all.

Having spoken to Dave, he's had it on for 3 years with this custom tune by Noble and it's always performed the same. I'm sure he has reset the ECU once or twice in the meantime, but not on a regular basis at all.
He's now driving around stock obviously and says the car feels like crap hahaha  s:D s:D  Too slow.

SOooo... my original query still stands and it seems that we don't really know how the eManage handles the closed/open look situations.
Theory suggests the ECU will adjust itself to whatever values it's reading from the o2 sensors post-eManage changes, on closed loop. But real life suggests the eManage still takes whatever the ECU calculates and modifies the value regardless of whether it's in closed or open loop.