Mini supercharger on 1zz

[lamcote]

I suppose it would be a bit less increase at lower revs because boost increases pretty much in direct proportion to revs/speed with a supercharger, (as opposed to a turbo, or a rocket as I learned today!). Nonetheless, as you say, that will do me too.

[Carolyn]

Don't forget I'm about 1/2 you're weight (no - you're not fat but you're not tiny either).  In a light car that gives me at least a 10hp start.
going to be much nicer to drive I think.

[Anonymous]

Have you thought about putting in place of the air con pump

[lamcote]

I doubt you would need to rely on a weight advantage, your superior driving skills would be more than enough to make the difference I would say.

[lamcote]

The space where the aircon pump is would take a Rotrex, but the M45 is surprisingly big, no way of squeezing it in there, or anywhere else apart from where Carolyn has found, as I had to agree when I saw it today, despite my smartarse ideas!

[lamcote]

Result of latest research:
The Mini's M45 supercharger gets inefficient after about 14,000rpm so you don't want to be spinning it faster than that at peak engine power revs. Our engine is tuned to give max power at 6,500rpm so the standard supercharger pulley (65.5mm) means the supercharger would be spinning at about 13,500rpm at 6,500 engine rpm. ie about maxed out.

The Mini is tuned to give max power at 5,500rpm and turns the s/c at 11,600rpm at peak power. This is why they can use underdrive pulleys to get more power.

This means the M45 on standard pulleys is as far as we could go on a 1zz, if people want more boost we would need to use a bigger s/c (which probably wouldn't fit).

(Running an underdrive pulley would increase the measured boost pressure but that would be artificial boost because it would just be resulting from very hot intake air which makes boost pressure on a gauge but not power on a dyno. Please be aware.)

[jvanzyl]

Jvanzyl, please come on board as the project will only get anywhere if the tasks are spread about somewhat.  We can do the mounting and fabrication to get the hardware in the car.  If you would take charge of the electronic control, that would be a major contribution.  Somebody who has done a turbo project would be good to help specify the 'plumbing'.
Those who contribute get to share the results.  That seems the way to go.
It really does help to come and have a look at how it all lays out around the engine and in the car.

I tried to respond to this earlier but the post didn't come through it seems!

Basically I think I need to tell you that I have NO experience with electrics! When I said "chip in" I was thinking we were having a whip around to build a fund to pay for the mapping?

I can suggest that maybe we broaden the viewers by publicizing this on the Sypderchat site? There is a wealth of experience over there and more than likely a few material resources that we don't have here either...

[Carolyn]

Broadening the viewers is a good idea.  

As our interest is not really at max RPM, it looks like we're pretty much on the right track.  Once it's built, there's no reason why we can't play with variations.

[lamcote]

The kit would require use of a custom Toyosport manifold and a custom exhaust, plus a piggyback ECU. I reckon applying these mods to a standard engine would bump power to 155bhp. So if we get a 45% power increase from the 8.5psi boost mentioned above, that means the standard pulley setup should give c.225bhp max. Not bad?

[Carolyn]

Hadn't thought of the other power increase.  What's the power out put of the standard 1zz at 4,000 rpm (which is where the boost is most useful)?

[shnazzle]

I'd certainly be very happy with 225 with no lag.

[lamcote]

Standard engine spec is 125lb/ft @ 4,400rpm which is 105bhp.

Presumably boost would be about 2/3 of max at that point so c.5.5psi, that would be c.30% increase, giving about 140bhp (including the exhaust/ECU mods) give or take.

[Carolyn]

So.. around 135-140 with SC?  Big improvement.  Wonder if it can be mapped for optimum mid-range power.  Damn we need a local (ish) ecu boffin.

[Carolyn]

It posted twice....

[lamcote]

Carolyn, you have come up with THE perfect engine for the MR2? We've got to do it.....

Plenty of power, no lag and it's even better than a Rotrex because there will be real low down torque, just what a road car needs.

[shnazzle]

So.. around 135-140 with SC?  Big improvement.  Wonder if it can be mapped for optimum mid-range power.  Damn we need a local (ish) ecu boffin.

If you use an emanage ultimate and wideband o2 sensor you can have it map itself for a nice base map, and then tweak it  slowly to suit needs. The important part is the wideband and listening for knock, but I believe the 1zz has some pretty nifty knock sensor action anyway

[lamcote]

Shnazzle, has anyone done that? Is it safe to rely on the knock sensors like that? Maybe worth a try on a sacrificial engine?

What are the chances of someone loaning us an eManage Ultimate and wideband o2 for a while to get it up and running?

[Carolyn]

We're trying to keep the costs down as much as possible.  Anyone with a creative engine control solution?

[shnazzle]

Shnazzle, has anyone done that? Is it safe to rely on the knock sensors like that? Maybe worth a try on a sacrificial engine?

Depends on how much you want to DIY.
Good thing is that we should already have a few base maps lying around for the emanage. Using the wideband "auto-tune" functionality allows it to adjust the map to the car. So that's safe. But you won't get the best out of it of course as the car will always try to be at stoich. That's just step 1.

Then it's a case of finding either a dyno or a lot of open private space and a friend in the car and tinkering with fueling and possibly air flow map. Lot's of tinkering. For a long time.
Could keep it safe and ensure that the ratio never goes below 13.0. Could push it towards 12 but I reckon that's asking for melting sh1t and making things go bang. But 13 is a pretty safe ratio with plenty fuel to keep things cool.

Then there's timing. Frankly I wouldn't even touch that because it's damn near impossible to tune without a dyno, and this is where knock is going to start to really play a role. You're unlikely to introduce knock if you're playing wiht a small margin in fueling ratios, but once you start messing with timing... One degree over could mean knock.
Granted...,knock is BAD but if you're tuning and seriously eyeball that knock sensor and let off immediately if it changes voltage...should be ok.

Oh, and we haven't even introduced map sensor and boost map yet.... hmm... I think this may be a case of donations for one car to get it done and then other people using that as a base map and tweaking.

[lamcote]

Just curious: Can you take a map developed on an eManage Ultimate and run it on an eManage Blue?

At this stage we just want a proof of concept so if we could get hold of the necessary hardware to see how/if it runs, that would be a start. We can take it from there according to how it goes.

I'm up for tinkering/DIYing as much as possible.

[shnazzle]

Just curious: Can you take a map developed on an eManage Ultimate and run it on an eManage Blue?

At this stage we just want a proof of concept so if we could get hold of the necessary hardware to see how/if it runs, that would be a start. We can take it from there according to how it goes.

I suspect not. The tables on the ultimate are bigger. Don't remember the figures but it goes from something like 16x16 to 20x20. So you'd lose 4x4 values...which is a lot.

[lamcote]

Anyone have any thoughts on cost:

Second hand Mini supercharger £120
Toyosports manifold £120 (plus modification costs £100)
Custom subframe £?
Custom exhaust £500?
[strike:25v60beu]eManage ECU £275 Second hand[/strike:25v60beu]
[strike:25v60beu]ECU Harness £150[/strike:25v60beu]
[strike:25v60beu]360-380cc Injectors £? Any suggestions for best cheap second hand source of this size of injectors?[/strike:25v60beu]
2zz yellow injectors £150?
Intercooler £50 Second hand (unless you get one with your supercharger)
Air filter £50?
Plumbing £200?
Brackets £100?
Fitting £? (Unless DIY)
[strike:25v60beu]Tuning £400?[/strike:25v60beu]
Latest Total £1,390 excl subframe and fitting cost (if required).


(I'll update as people suggest numbers)

[shnazzle]

Second hand Mini supercharger £200
Toyosports manifold £150 (plus modification costs £?)
Custom subframe £?
eManage ECU £350 second hand incl harness or £250-300 without
ECU Harness £150 if not already in package with eManage. Alternatively...universal and lots of soldering.
Intercooler £?
Plumbing £?
Fitting £?
Tuning £400, assuming 90-100 per hour and 4hrs on the dyno
Total £?

[jvanzyl]

Just a thought here - I have a friend who will be coming back from the US shortly.... would it be beneficial to buy the ulitmate and harness etc from there and bring it back?

[lamcote]

I'm hoping for some kind person to come up with a loaner. Is that just wishful thinking?