Mini supercharger on 1zz

[shnazzle]

I'm hoping for some kind person to come up with a loaner. Is that just wishful thinking?

Maybe cabbydave? although I know he's got his ultimate ready to go for his rotrex 2zz install.

let's all bat our eyelids at cabbydave

Also, few more things.

Second hand Mini supercharger £200
Toyosports manifold £150 (plus modification costs £?)
Custom subframe £?
eManage ECU £350 second hand incl harness or £250-300 without
ECU Harness £150 if not already in package with eManage. Alternatively...universal and lots of soldering.
Wideband AFR £120-50
MAP sensor for Ultimate + harness £150
Intercooler £?
Plumbing £?
Fitting £?
Tuning £400, assuming 90-100 per hour and 4hrs on the dyno
Total £?

[lamcote]

Batting here...

[Carolyn]

What we need is someone who has a good understanding of the electronics on the car to  come to SC HQ and have a long discussion on possible ways forward.  Any volunteers?  The more the better.
As someone who has done quite a few successful projects that were not done according to 'established wisdom', I cannot believe there is not something more creative and less expensive waiting to be exploited.

Second hand Mini supercharger £200   Bought for 120
Toyosports manifold £150 (plus modification costs £?)  Can be had for £120.  modification £100
Custom subframe £?   Don't know yet.
eManage ECU £350 second hand incl harness or £250-300 without Need alternative
ECU Harness £150 if not already in package with eManage. Alternatively...universal and lots of soldering. No idea
Intercooler £?  Came with the supercharger
Plumbing £? Don't know
Fitting £?  DIY
Tuning £400, assuming 90-100 per hour and 4hrs on the dyno   Got to find a volunteer
Total £?

[shnazzle]

ok. Cost cutting...
No more MAP sensor or tuning.

Manual boost controller £75
Stock ECU. We'll be limited to about 170ish hp though probably.  I think s12vea has some experience with turbos on stock ECU.

[Carolyn]

ok. Cost cutting...
No more MAP sensor or tuning.

Manual boost controller £75
Stock ECU. We'll be limited to about 170ish hp though probably.  I think s12vea has some experience with turbos on stock ECU.

Has anyone tried 2zz injectors on stock ecu?

[shnazzle]

ok. Cost cutting...
No more MAP sensor or tuning.

Manual boost controller £75
Stock ECU. We'll be limited to about 170ish hp though probably.  I think s12vea has some experience with turbos on stock ECU.

Has anyone tried 2zz injectors on stock ecu?

yes. Everybody who has done Cap's MAF mod  s:) s:)

Overfuels like a mother without adjusting the MAF positioning. Especially at idle.
However...if you're forcing more air in...maybe the stock ECU would actually be happier with the 310cc injectors

[lamcote]

I think we need 360-380cc injectors - forgot those, now added to list!!

[ChrisGB]

Tuning wise 13:1 under load is lean. The stock engine NA seems to give it's best at about 12 - 12.5:1 no improvement going leaner, so I would assume that with boost you would want to start richer, maybe 10.5:1 and work your way lean from there.

[shnazzle]

Tuning wise 13:1 under load is lean. The stock engine NA seems to give it's best at about 12 - 12.5:1 no improvement going leaner, so I would assume that with boost you would want to start richer, maybe 10.5:1 and work your way lean from there.

True. 13 was an absolute limit for safety. But definitely good to know that the NA seems to be best at 12-12.5. If there's no point going to 13...why risk it eh?

[Carolyn]

quote: "Overfuels like a mother without adjusting the MAF positioning. Especially at idle.
However...if you're forcing more air in...maybe the stock ECU would actually be happier with the 310cc injectors"

The maf position will be different anyway as we won't be using the stock intake.  My though was just that, with boost, the ECU would work with slightly bigger injectors.  I am minded to try that first.

[shnazzle]

quote: "Overfuels like a mother without adjusting the MAF positioning. Especially at idle.
However...if you're forcing more air in...maybe the stock ECU would actually be happier with the 310cc injectors"

The maf position will be different anyway as we won't be using the stock intake.  My though was just that, with boost, the ECU would work with slightly bigger injectors.  I am minded to try that first.

Ah ok. Does the stock intake not fit with the SC in place? Regardless, seems that 310 might not even be enough based on what lamcote said

[Carolyn]

The Throttle body , MAF and air filter are all up steam of the SC.  You suck with an SC - not blow.  People call them 'blowers'. but they need to pull through the butterfly.  It's not complicated to do the intake.  The plumbing via the intercooler to the plenum is a bit more of a challenge but with the old intake out of the way, it won't be too bad.  
OK let's figure out the optimum injector size and then figure out how to get the best out of the standard ECU?

[lamcote]

The cheaper option would be to find out what max power you can deliver using the standard ECU with either 1zz or 2zz injectors and then fit a custom pulley to reduce boost achieve that number.

For example, if you can get 190bhp out of the standard ECU and 2zz injectors we would then want boost of around 4-5psi so we would need a SC pulley of around 130mm dia.

This would mean no costs for ECU, harness or tuning.

Is this a preferred route?

[Carolyn]

Like your thinking but I think we can do a bit better than that... compromises here and there...

[lamcote]

Intriguing, what are you thinking?

[lamcote]

330cc (2zz brown) injectors should do 205bhp, if the standard ECU is up to that? But off/low boost likely to be be mega rich, emissions probs?

[Carolyn]

Use established knowledge on MAF mounting/positioning.  Get the injector sizing right.  Run it and experiment.  As I understand it, the ecu reads the MAF and O2 sensors and controls the injectors - got to feed it the right info.

[lamcote]

I see where you're going but main obstacle will be getting standard ECU to fuel correctly for low revs/no boost ie almost standard fuel flow required and high revs with significant boost present. This means the slope of the fuel flow graph is very different to the natural aspiration which is what the standard ECU expects. Worth a try though. I think it will depend on whether the fuel trims in closed loop have enough adjustment to offset the AFR needed in open loop.

Only one way to find out!!

[Carolyn]

I'm going to give this a bit of mulling over.  Really want to keep the costs down....

[lamcote]

Couldn't agree more.

The more I think about it, the size of fuel trim adjustment available is the key to this. We need to find a max power output (and therefore injector size) that falls just within the standard ECU closed loop adjustment range. Maybe trial and error is the only way.

This could be doable, well done for keeping my feet on the ground.

[jvanzyl]

me again with my thoughts.... re the over fueling on idle with 2zz injectors, my O2 sensors were quite old and slow reacting (according to steve). There was an appreciable difference to the values following a refresh of my air filter and sparks. I do think it would be wise to ensure that whatever you start testing on has "new" everything, otherwise you may be trying to deal with non-problems that can be sorted by simply refreshing components...

[lamcote]

Good point, thanks

[Carolyn]

jvanzyl:  Yep.
Lamcote:  Don't forget -it's mid-range power we're after.  Not too fussed about top end.... I reckon, start with yellow 2zz injectors...??

[lamcote]

We will need a range of custom SC pulley sizes available though, unless we are happy having a mandatory 4,500 rpm redline.

[Carolyn]

Let's start with whatever you think is the best all-round size?