Excessive turning over before catching -Post MAF Mod

[jvanzyl]

Hey Guys,
I fitted the MAF Mod last night and I really love it  :-) :-) :-)

However this morning when I started the car, it had to turn over for 2-3 times longer than normal before it caught... .can anyone suggest a reason for this? It drove fine on the way to work, I'm just a bit wary of what the issue might be?

Thanks for all the help and suggestions!

John

[shnazzle]

Dodgy injectors  s;) s;)  

No clue mate haha. No fuel leaks? You said you had some difficulties with the injectors in the rail. They are a pig to get in/out. Guessing you used all new seals.

[jvanzyl]

 :-) :-) :-)  well I just tried to turn the car on and again you're waiting for several seconds before it catches.
I then turned it off and back on again - but this time applied a little throttle and it caught properly.... so it seems like the fuel is not getting into the cylinders without pushing the accelerator...

I made sure I greased all the o-rings properly before putting them back in (goes very easily when greased!) - but I followed the guide and it said to use the old O rings from the 1ZZ injectors as they were chunkier than the standard 2zz ones even though they were new? They seemed in decent condition, so I wiped them down and popped them in.

I'm guessing I'm going to have to take it all apart again tonight and check to see if there is a leak - there was none under the car this morning, but I guess there could be a small one that I'm just not spotting?

[shnazzle]

Sounds more like a MAF thing then as the car dumps fuel in quite heavily on first start up anyway.
Or leak in intake.

EDIT: Found a thread on spyderchat that also mentioned leaking injector. So still worth checking for leaks.
I don't really understand how it manages fueling on start up now since it's got bigger injectors than normal. I'd expect it to put in a rather large amount of fuel, so maybe on a warmer day you might notice the problem goes away

[jvanzyl]

Hmmm - ok. I suppose it can't hurt then to reset the ECU again?

I'll go and disconnect the battery now and then try and start the car again at lunch time to see if that makes any difference.

Then tonight I guess I'll have to take it all apart again and try to remove as much gunk as I can and make sure all the injectors are seated properly.

Does anyone else have an opinion on the oem 1zz o-rings vs the 2zz o-rings? I'm hoping that this will all go much faster than last time - I'm not sure how happy I feel about having to give it gas to start up!

[shnazzle]

Hmmm - ok. I suppose it can't hurt then to reset the ECU again?

I'll go and disconnect the battery now and then try and start the car again at lunch time to see if that makes any difference.

Then tonight I guess I'll have to take it all apart again and try to remove as much gunk as I can and make sure all the injectors are seated properly.

Does anyone else have an opinion on the oem 1zz o-rings vs the 2zz o-rings? I'm hoping that this will all go much faster than last time - I'm not sure how happy I feel about having to give it gas to start up!

really shouldn't have to. Something is amiss.
Disconnect the battery for a good while (30-40 mins) to make sure. Or just until you leave  s:) s:)  Don't think that'll be it though

[jvanzyl]

 s:-( :-( s:-(  - well I'll leave it disconnected till 1200 - total time disconnected will be 45 mins then.

If it's not that then I'm guessing I'm going to have to try and take it all apart and reseat the injectors again.... might try the new O-ring (the big ones) that came with back with the injectors if the problem still doesn't go away...

BTW the flow chart came back from Simtek - said that the flow rate  was 86.X CL per 30 second test - I'm having trouble converting that to CCM as the injectors are supposed to be 310CCM?

EDIT:  -Just tried it again and it started the same... so I guess I will now need to redo the injectors either tonight or tomorrow night  s:-( :-( s:-( .. I'm hoping that I can fix this..

[shnazzle]

Err.. Is that per injector? Seems odd.
86cl/30sec x 2 = 172cl/m
172cl/m = 1720cc/m. Must be for all 4, so 1720/4=430ccm each

Supposed to be 310 for yellows I think. So not sure how that works out.
Can you post a pic of the report?

[jvanzyl]

Heres the report - they made an error on the report for the timing - it was actually for 30 seconds, not the described 15.



from the report it LOOKS like the injectors were in decent shape beforehand anyway! and I don't know what the difference between "good" and "OK" is...

To be honest I was hoping for a bit more wow factor from the refurb report...

[shnazzle]

Heres the report - they made an error on the report for the timing - it was actually for 30 seconds, not the described 15.



from the report it LOOKS like the injectors were in decent shape beforehand anyway! and I don't know what the difference between "good" and "OK" is...

To be honest I was hoping for a bit more wow factor from the refurb report...

Ah, 4bar? That's 58psi, which i think is a fair bit higher than stock 1zz fuel pressure.

I need to learn to finish posts before submitting. Instead I end up editting almost every post I write.
Anyway, whever the measurement is...it seems at least like they're all along the same level so...gotta be good  s:) s:)
The "OK"s probably just are a boolean test. So they either leak or they don't. So, OK or FAIL or something. Whereas flow can be "good", "satisfactory" or "poor"

[ChrisGB]

Startup is open loop operation, so bigger injectors can partially flood the engine. The 440s I ran always caught better with a little throttle.

[loadswine]

Startup is open loop operation, so bigger injectors can partially flood the engine. The 440s I ran always caught better with a little throttle.

My last turbo was like that too.

[jvanzyl]

Hey Guys,
Thanks for the background info - I didn't know that.
So I completely re did the Injectors last night and put on the standard insulators that the refurbed injectors came with as I thought that since they were exactly the same size as the ones that came with 1ZZ ones they were definitely newer and it felt like they were a bit more snug in their holes. I also vacuumed out all the gunk.

So here's the thing - when turning the car on straight after fitted the injectors (battery disconnected for about 1 hour) it catches first time just like normal.

When I took it out for drive 30 mins later it faltered slightly on the catch and took a bit longer.

This morning when I started the car from cold it did the hole multiple multiple turn overs and eventually it caught.

Drove for 20 mins and then left the car 10 mins and came back to it and started it and it faltered slightly and then caught.

Does anyone know where to start? Do I go back to the refurbishment people? Do I need to reclean my MAF (did it 4 months ago)? Do I need to reseat my riser? (I'm clutching at straws here).

The whole extended turnover and then catching thing really detracts from the driving experience because I feel like I'm driving a poorly maintained car  s:-( :-( s:-(  So much so that it really takes away from the extra power thing because in the back of my mind it's bugging me!  s:-( :-( s:-(

EDIT: if the increase in fuel being dumped in for startup is "normal" is there any way possible of reducing it so that this long starting thing can be fixed?

[1979scotte]

How long are we actually talking?
If it was doing it in the warmth of summer it would worry me more than now.

[shnazzle]

Hey Guys,
EDIT: if the increase in fuel being dumped in for startup is "normal" is there any way possible of reducing it so that this long starting thing can be fixed?

Only with piggyback ECU.
I believe cabbydave mentioned to me that he had an eManage mapped to run even better with the maf mod

[jvanzyl]

How long are we actually talking?
If it was doing it in the warmth of summer it would worry me more than now.

We're talking about 4- 6 seconds... now that I write that it does sound a bit silly - I guess it's where you've come from and are used to? Previously it would catch after the 3rd turn.

I just spoke to my garage who said that there were two different types of ignitions (Cold & warm) - and essentially the cold one is asking for X amount of fuel based on a temp of Y and the theoretical 1ZZ injector size, which is clearly too much. Whereas with the warmer temps it's not a problem. (it doesn't explain why it starts perfectly after reinserting the injectors etc- but nevermind).

He did suggest a solution - put the throttle wide open before starting the car to put it into "clear out" mode which means zero fuel is put into the cylinders and then do a slightly release just as it's turning over to allow the fuel in.

I tried it with some marginal success - I think it's realistically about getting the timing spot on to "simulate" my normal start up  s:roll: :roll: s:roll:  

I might try it again later today when my ELM327 arrives  :-) :-) :-)

[jvanzyl]

Hey Guys,
EDIT: if the increase in fuel being dumped in for startup is "normal" is there any way possible of reducing it so that this long starting thing can be fixed?

Only with piggyback ECU.
I believe cabbydave mentioned to me that he had an eManage mapped to run even better with the maf mod

I shudder to think how much a piggyback ECU and map cost! what are we talking about here?

[shnazzle]

Lots  s:) s:)  
You can get a piggyback with mr2 loom for about 300 second hand. Then another 90-100 quid an hour for mapping. So yeah, 700 or so in total.

Best done after you've done all the engine mods you want to do of course.
Does make for a very sweet running car though  s:) s:)

[jvanzyl]

I think I will focus on subliminal messaging to get people who have ones already to feel charitable and give me theirs..... you WANT to give me your eManage...yessss..... you will feel better if you give it to John...

[shnazzle]

[Logan]

Out of interest, did the spacer come from the US thread? Does sound like it's putting too much fuel in on cold startup, is there any smoke out of the exhaust?

[jvanzyl]

The spacer came from Patrick (Shnazzle) - it's the one with the notch in it so that it fits properly etc..
I don't think there is any smoke... I'd have to record it on video to see if there is, but there is a whiff of petrol more so than I remember.

[CrazySX]

Hey John, report looks alright. I think it was cabbydave who told me that the 2zz insulators are more of a tight fit and the 1zz insulators would fit better. I couldn't get 1zz insulators. My local Mr T told me it was a months wait. ( might have been 2 weeks) as they were coming from Brussels.  Plan to fit my injectors when back from holiday.  Will let you know how I get on  s;) s;)

[CrazySX]

Oh and my spacer came from Cap himself.

[shnazzle]

The maf riser John got from me was one of Cap's.