Excessive turning over before catching -Post MAF Mod

[jvanzyl]

and the vanes are out yes?

yes - vanes are out!

Ok to answer your earlier question -- i'm using torque pro and have captured the below log of the trim levels:


and uploaded the raw data here (see excel file)
 m https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... 1JRbkdsbFU m

I also took the following pics of the air filter & Maf raiser:








I actually found a slight gap where the markii pipe was going into the air box at the bottom.. have hopefully fixed that!
It seems daft that all this effort is put into the shape of the pipe and then it hits a stupid nut head as soon as it gets in there!.. anyway...

[shnazzle]

That filter looks well mucky mate. Did you try starting her up without the filter?

Those LTFT readings look all over the place. Sure you haven't got the PID for STFT there?

[jvanzyl]

I actually didn't start up without the filter :-/ kinda forgot!

I can pick up a new filter on the way home I guess..

re data - it may be that I'm tracking too many data points... if you look at the graph titles they are pulled directly from the excel file and it says "long term"...

[jvanzyl]

right! new air filter installed and slightly better trim results!
I've done a comparison of old vs new for trims 1 & 2 below:

Essentially long term old vs new:

Trim 1
old -13.3
new -12.8
Trim 2
old -15.13
new -14.6

Orange lines are with the new airfilter for both - oh and startup was still the same prolonged rubbish...

[jvanzyl]

Spark plug change time!

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[CrazySX]

tips don't look too bad.

I have downloaded the torque app but need to set it up to read the fuel trims.  Any help appreciated :p

Oh and did SIMTEK get back to you?

[shnazzle]

 m https://youtu.be/6kMfqMLoJMc m

[jvanzyl]

The tips were quite white? Not sure what that means... Any way-  I've put it back to stock now and the trim levels are perfect and I'll confirm in the morning if startup is back to normal.
I'll be sending the injectors back to Simtek (I've been in correspondence with them) to recheck. After which I'll more than likely put the whole kit up for sale.
Just took it for a drive and I miss my torque!  s:-( :-( s:-(

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[CrazySX]

The tips were quite white? Not sure what that means... Any way-  I've put it back to stock now and the trim levels are perfect and I'll confirm in the morning if startup is back to normal.
I'll be sending the injectors back to Simtek (I've been in correspondence with them) to recheck. After which I'll more than likely put the whole kit up for sale.
Just took it for a drive and I miss my torque!  s:-( :-( s:-(

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Can you log the LTFT as stock, do they sit at around zero or a bit rich? when warmed up off course.

White Tips usually mean the car is running a little on the lean side. if they were black then rich. a light brown is about right i think.

Why you giving up. I am sure it will get resolved and you will be fine.  Be interesting to see if startup is back to normal.  If it is then i would bet on the fact its a leaky injector causing your issue. Just replace it and pop them back in.  I know its a pain, and you are probably a little annoyed, but don't be disheartened!

My Torque app is all setup, i will run it tomorrow morning and let you know my results.  

Thank you Patrick for the video link  s:) s:)

[jvanzyl]

Morning!
 s:-D :-D s:-D  Sooo I've corrected my startup issues! Hooray!!!! I'm guessing this totally means that I had a leak... ?

in terms of the long term averages for 1 & 2 they came out at -1.47 & -1.49 and interestingly the car seemed to be ok with either bank sitting a +/-3.9 value for a while before correcting.

As far as I'm concerned I think next steps are to send the injectors back to Simtek and get them to retest. I've kind of had enough (and I think my wife has too) of me playing around in the engine during our evenings!.

Following decent results I'll more than likely put the whole set up for sale so that someone else can who has a less tempermental car can give it a go!

[shnazzle]

Seems odd as they came back well out of the test. Not being rude but seems more of a user-error on installation. They are fussy to sit. I had the same with the 2zz I had to be honest. I pulled the injector rail to get to a sensor, and I never got it to sit properly after that. Obviously you've now got all new seals etc, so can't be the same issue  s:) s:)  But something's not sitting well.

[jvanzyl]

It could totally be down to user error - but I've now done this three times and I'm pretty sure I've done it the same way each time...

I'll box them all up tonight and try and send them off tomorrow - I've got Cap on the Sypder chat thread having a look into the trim levels as well, he's not familiar with the Markiii pipe and following your own results with it - it could be the reason for the issue of running rich? I'm guessing here!

In terms of start up though - when I removed them last night there was no evidence of fuel leakage (in terms of faulty seal)... and this morning everything was great, I did use brand new 1zz insulator seals though, not the ones that they supplied with the refurb - there is honestly no difference in them, but I thought what the heck.

maybe I'll take the whole package with me to ding day and we can do and observation of how to install injectors properly!  s;-) ;-) s;-)

[shnazzle]

It could totally be down to user error - but I've now done this three times and I'm pretty sure I've done it the same way each time...

I'll box them all up tonight and try and send them off tomorrow - I've got Cap on the Sypder chat thread having a look into the trim levels as well, he's not familiar with the Markiii pipe and following your own results with it - it could be the reason for the issue of running rich? I'm guessing here!

In terms of start up though - when I removed them last night there was no evidence of fuel leakage (in terms of faulty seal)... and this morning everything was great, I did use brand new 1zz insulator seals though, not the ones that they supplied with the refurb - there is honestly no difference in them, but I thought what the heck.

maybe I'll take the whole package with me to ding day and we can do and observation of how to install injectors properly!  s;-) ;-) s;-)

I really can't imagine the markiii pipe would have any influence. Hell, I know some people are running cone filters with their MAF mods without issues, despite Cap specifying a stock intake.
And besides, the markiii pipe really doesn't provide much in the way of benefits at startup. So little air is needed at that point. The IAC only has the throttle open a teeeny bit

[CrazySX]

I know what you mean, but it's deceptive. You basically only realize how fast you're going when you look down at the spedometer...and also you're used to a certain engine note and gearing = X speed... so when you have the same engine note and gearing but a higher speed the only real way i think you'd notice it would be look at the dial?

I took a screenshot of the long term Trim for 1 & 2 this morning... it's not looking like Cap said it should...
Do you have an OBD reader? if so would you be able to tell me what your long term trim levels are?

Is this on idle?

If it is then my car is running well rich


I have done 52 miles on a full tank of 99 momentum and look at my fuel gauge  s:o s:o

[CrazySX]

Morning!
 s:-D :-D s:-D  Sooo I've corrected my startup issues! Hooray!!!! I'm guessing this totally means that I had a leak... ?

in terms of the long term averages for 1 & 2 they came out at -1.47 & -1.49 and interestingly the car seemed to be ok with either bank sitting a +/-3.9 value for a while before correcting.

As far as I'm concerned I think next steps are to send the injectors back to Simtek and get them to retest. I've kind of had enough (and I think my wife has too) of me playing around in the engine during our evenings!.

Following decent results I'll more than likely put the whole set up for sale so that someone else can who has a less tempermental car can give it a go!

Can you do me a favour and post up your intake temps?  Mine was showing as 41 degrees this morning!!! I think that open air HKS filter is no good. Ambient Temperature was 9 degrees  s:( s:(

[CrazySX]

It could totally be down to user error - but I've now done this three times and I'm pretty sure I've done it the same way each time...

I'll box them all up tonight and try and send them off tomorrow - I've got Cap on the Sypder chat thread having a look into the trim levels as well, he's not familiar with the Markiii pipe and following your own results with it - it could be the reason for the issue of running rich? I'm guessing here!

In terms of start up though - when I removed them last night there was no evidence of fuel leakage (in terms of faulty seal)... and this morning everything was great, I did use brand new 1zz insulator seals though, not the ones that they supplied with the refurb - there is honestly no difference in them, but I thought what the heck.

maybe I'll take the whole package with me to ding day and we can do and observation of how to install injectors properly!  s;-) ;-) s;-)

I am starting to think it maybe an issue with UK cars. has anyone else done the MAF mod successfully on here with good results?

My car starts and runs ok, but as i said i can't help but think its holding back a little, and now seeing the LTFT i can understand why!

[shnazzle]

41?? The only time I ever saw temps like this was on a very hot day after a long blast out.
Get rid of that intake and go stock.

[CrazySX]

It could totally be down to user error - but I've now done this three times and I'm pretty sure I've done it the same way each time...

I'll box them all up tonight and try and send them off tomorrow - I've got Cap on the Sypder chat thread having a look into the trim levels as well, he's not familiar with the Markiii pipe and following your own results with it - it could be the reason for the issue of running rich? I'm guessing here!

In terms of start up though - when I removed them last night there was no evidence of fuel leakage (in terms of faulty seal)... and this morning everything was great, I did use brand new 1zz insulator seals though, not the ones that they supplied with the refurb - there is honestly no difference in them, but I thought what the heck.

maybe I'll take the whole package with me to ding day and we can do and observation of how to install injectors properly!  s;-) ;-) s;-)

I really can't imagine the markiii pipe would have any influence. Hell, I know some people are running cone filters with their MAF mods without issues, despite Cap specifying a stock intake.
And besides, the markiii pipe really doesn't provide much in the way of benefits at startup. So little air is needed at that point. The IAC only has the throttle open a teeeny bit

I agree with Patrick on this, Markiii Pipe is before MAF sensor so only gives a good feed of air.  Should not affect readings after MAF sensor.

[CrazySX]

41?? The only time I ever saw temps like this was on a very hot day after a long blast out.
Get rid of that intake and go stock.

I think i need to! I will put the stock box back in and remove the vanes to see if the LTFT's come down and see what the intake temp looks like. I am going to experiment with a typhoon style intake after that.  Else i will get a high flow panel air filter in the stock box.

[jvanzyl]

Yeah I'll have a look at my intake temps on the way home tonight - pretty sure that it'll be lower than 41 though!  :-) :-) :-)

My readings were long term for 1 & 2 for that screen shot that I took and they were at idle at that point.

You know I'm wondering, UK octane ratings are higher than US octane ratings aren't they? I kind of wonder if that has any influence.... i.e. if we used our bog standard fuel - would it be the same as US premium?

EDIT: Cap suggested raising the height of the MAF even further to try and lean out the fuel mixture further... I've asked him for an initial suggested raise amount as I have no idea to what mm this this would be sensitive to...

[shnazzle]

Yeah I'll have a look at my intake temps on the way home tonight - pretty sure that it'll be lower than 41 though!  :-) :-) :-)

My readings were long term for 1 & 2 for that screen shot that I took and they were at idle at that point.

You know I'm wondering, UK octane ratings are higher than US octane ratings aren't they? I kind of wonder if that has any influence.... i.e. if we used our bog standard fuel - would it be the same as US premium?

93US is the same as 98EU apparently. So, no. 95 octane here would be like using 89 there. No good.

Idle readings for fuel trim aren't great. Particularly not for long term.
LTFT table is quite complicated and is more like a map. It's against engine load and/or rpm and possible even more variables like temperature.
So really you'd have to log LTFT after a while of running the car through all of its rev ranges and engine loads, then pick a nice stretch of roads and see if you can do a few hundred feet at different load/rpm ranges.

[jvanzyl]

Fair enough re octanes.

I've started adding to the thread in the US:
 m http://www.spyderchat.com/forums/showth ... ost1610682 m

So far I think there are clearly two issues:
1 - either my injectors were leaky or I couldn't get the installation right which lead to the awkward starting (I'm going to treat this as resolved for now)
2 - There appears to be a difference (so far) in how our UK cars are reacting to the MAF mod compared to the US.

Obviously there are a lot of possibilities for number two - however a good place to start would be to slowly raise the height of the MAF to see if this does in fact correct the amount of Trim and bring it back within normal range.
One of the main probs with doing this is the need for some kind of spacer that keeps the seal whilst provides uniform height adjustment...

Those idle readings that I took the screenshot are affected by the fact that the car is at stand still and idling whilst i did the screen shot.

The readings I took later where I did a data dump and then averaged out the values for 1 & 2 are the ones to look at . i.e. where they were at the -12.8 & -14.6.
Bear in mind that these were both taken over a 10 minute journey so it's possible they may have come down further over time...

[jvanzyl]

Right- intake temp is 17C after my drive home.... I think a cone filter might not be the best thing for this car? Surely colder is better?

[shnazzle]

Right- intake temp is 17C after my drive home.... I think a cone filter might not be the best thing for this car? Surely colder is better?

It's all about placement. Extend the pipes so that the cone sits either under the left rear light or, even better, behind the battery. That's the best place to get cold air.

Let it dangle where the stock box is and well...CrazySX can tell you how well that works out  s:) s:)  hehe
And yes, moist cold air is best.

[CrazySX]

Right- intake temp is 17C after my drive home.... I think a cone filter might not be the best thing for this car? Surely colder is better?

What was the temp outside when you did this?

I did it again on the way home and the outside temp was 17 and this is what the intake temp was  s:o s:o


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