Wet grip concerns

[McMr2]

I have had my car for about two months and, thanks largely to the advice on here, have taken a few things on board.

The car was in good condition when I got it but I still had an inspection carried out at a known, trusted garage which didn't show anything significant.
I fitted 4x T1Rs to try and get the best out of the car (195/50R15 & 225/40R16), replacing the 'exotic' rears and perished avons on the front, and also had a 4 wheel alignment.

This has made a huge difference but the car is still very unnerving in the wet - specifically the rear which feels rather loose.
Interestingly, there seems to be plenty of grip when pulling away or on slow tight roundabouts. However, on sweeping bends above 35-40 the rear seems like it is stepping out and wouldn't take much to break away completely.

I appreciate these cars require a delicate touch in such conditions but even driven extremely tentatively it seems to start breaking away. For context, I was holding up traffic the other day as a result of having to slow down so much.

Car is a 2004 and I'm running 28/32psi - the tyres have covered 1k miles so that should rule out any mold release.

Is this normal or is something amiss (perhaps my driving?!)?

[M.R.]

Is this normal or is something amiss (perhaps my driving?!)?

Seems pretty normal to me. Although my 2 likes to be very tail happy in roundabouts and other similar places too, regardless of speed. I have 205/50-15 S.Drives all around. I have gotten used to it and it´s fun, so no need to do anything about it. I´m guessing it´s because of weight, or lack of it. Mine is lightened. Mostly from rear. So no wonder it lacks wet grip.

[Smcknighty]

Mine understeers way before the rear lets go. In the cold and wet it struggled a bit on the old tyres. In the warm and wet and new tyres it's generally ok.


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[krazysteve]

Have you checked your shockers? mine was scary and even vague, also bushes might be tired allowing it to move about.  
I used to run with Toyos but now using Bridgstones, Difference is night and day wet or dry.
Oh no not another tyre debate lol....

[The Other Stu]

Have you checked your shockers? mine was scary and even vague, also bushes might be tired allowing it to move about.  
I used to run with Toyos but now using Bridgstones, Difference is night and day wet or dry.
Oh no not another tyre debate lol....

Ah, just commented on the other thread.

Another +1 for Bridgestones in the wet. They're not very interesting in the dry, mind.
Horses for courses.

[carolineasb]

What is the state of the x-member? Have you had a look? It's often missed at MOT because it is covered by the nappy  s:( s:(

[shnazzle]

I'm tempted t agree with the shock absorber comment.
At 50k+ they're pretty much near done,for such a fine-tuned handling car.
I'm running tyres not known for their wet grip and I have no issues...

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[stupink]

Shocks and bushes as above are definitely likely candidates (one or both).  (rear arm bushes moving = rear wheel steering).. shocks can bounce test okay but still be wrecked though so a hard one to diagnose.

Also check they did the rear toe bolts up properly else the wheels could actually be moving and steering... maybe put a bit of a pen mark on the adjuster, go for a drive and check they don't move.

[enzoforever]

I had toyo proxes on the front and bridge stones on the rear, and now bridge stones all round.  26psi fronts 32 psi rears.  Had a few moments but only when not driving to road conditions.  Have winter tyres for the colder months (kuhmos) which a fabulous in the  wet and cold and surprisingly good in the snow.  I feel the bridge stones all round are better than the proxes on the front as they were rather soft, but as far as balance between front and rears never had a real issue.

[McMr2]

Thanks everyone.

The tyres will have to wait,but I'm tempted to try the Bridgestone's once these are worn.

Caroline-good call with the x member but it only appears to be showing a bit of surface rust.
Stu&shnazzle - I'm wondering if shocks are the culprit. Car is approaching 70k but bushes aren't showing any real play.

The rear toe bolts are tight and were marked up, the garage are good. I had the alignment rechecked too once the tyres went on.

[Jon_G]

T1Rs feel horrible for the first few hundred miles, but they settle down nicely, I've found 35/31 PSI to give the best results (also a facelift model).

It's always been tail-happy in the wet, even with the stock Yokos. But no worse than my old BMW 323i.

[M.R.]

Mine understeers way before the rear lets go.

How? Last time I experienced understeer was when I bough the car and it had 11 year old bridgestones. After buying new tires understeer disappeared pretty much completely.

[Topdownman]

Shocks do seem to affect the handling even if there are no other obvious signs of problems with them. I changed mine at 70k.

Sounds like you have done everything else. I would change them before you change the tyres.

[cptspaulding]

Does anyone else feel we have to be realistic with our cars in the wet on public roads?

On public roads there are drain covers, bumps, holes, uneven patches & more. If you're like me there'll be the odd corner on favourite roads where you're not going to push it, even in the dry because you know there's all of those on that corner & you won't take the risk.

In the wet we're less likely to see how shi!tty the road is that we're about to drive over. Unsurprising then that we will lose grip occasionally in the wet. It's not like a track circuit where the surface is maintained more than once every ten years.

Driving in the wet on a RWD car with the weight slightly biased to the rear? Hmmm.

[carolineasb]

When you say just surface rust on the x-member, have you checked above and below? Especially where the exhaust passes? Has it been replaced before?

[McMr2]

Does anyone else feel we have to be realistic with our cars in the wet on public roads?

On public roads there are drain covers, bumps, holes, uneven patches & more. If you're like me there'll be the odd corner on favourite roads where you're not going to push it, even in the dry because you know there's all of those on that corner & you won't take the risk.

In the wet we're less likely to see how shi!tty the road is that we're about to drive over. Unsurprising then that we will lose grip occasionally in the wet. It's not like a track circuit where the surface is maintained more than once every ten years.

Driving in the wet on a RWD car with the weight slightly biased to the rear? Hmmm.

Couldn't agree more however I don't drive on the road as I do on track. I just find it surprising that even on a decent road with no adverse camber that it would be quite so tail happy - it is a road car afterall. I do accept that it may be adjustment on my part that is required!

When you say just surface rust on the x-member, have you checked above and below? Especially where the exhaust passes? Has it been replaced before?

Only what I could see above and below with the cover off. Have you had issues with yours? What would indicate that it's no longer fit for purpose?

Really appreciate the responses from everyone.

[shnazzle]

Does anyone else feel we have to be realistic with our cars in the wet on public roads?

On public roads there are drain covers, bumps, holes, uneven patches & more. If you're like me there'll be the odd corner on favourite roads where you're not going to push it, even in the dry because you know there's all of those on that corner & you won't take the risk.

In the wet we're less likely to see how shi!tty the road is that we're about to drive over. Unsurprising then that we will lose grip occasionally in the wet. It's not like a track circuit where the surface is maintained more than once every ten years.

Driving in the wet on a RWD car with the weight slightly biased to the rear? Hmmm.

Absolutely!! That's a given for this car and cars like it.
To be fair I approach almost every corner with a hint of trepidation and care because I know exactly how easily the car slips out if it catches something. Happened to me twice. Caught it both times, but the first time I fish-tailed a good 3 times at about 45mph before I caught it.... that was on T1-Rs in the wet  s:) s:)

So yes, eagle-eye every single corner and roundabout for things that might throw you off balance. But primarily, make sure you can trust the car, which I think is what this topic is about. What can he do to make sure he has full trust in the car?

the usual suspects are:
- Tyres and tyre pressures (subjective choice on tyre, but as long as they're staggered and inflated correctly)
- Shock absorbers are done. Everybody that has switched their old shocks for OEM or KYB replacements can tell you they never expected their old shocks to be as bad. It seems Toyota shock lifespan is just limited.
- Rear crossmember integrity impaired due to rust-through. Not even a common issue, it's more like an inevitability. Your subframe WILL need replacing around 65k on average because it will have rusted through. Exceptional cases exist (garaged cars, cars run in dry only, etc)
- Bushes. These are rubber and will rot. Depending on hwere the car is from, how it's stored, etc the bsushes could be done for and cause excessive play in the suspension. This causes a lot of uneasiness.

Really the list isn't any different from any other car, the MR2 is just a lot more sensitive than your average FWD car.

[jeffsimply]

Ignoring any technical defects with the car, T1Rs are dreadful in the wet.

It really depends what you want from the car? If you like the playfulness then stick with them, but if you just want the car to grip and go (i.e. less drama for your daily duties) then a different tyre is what I'd recommend.

I use Pilot Sports on mine (currently 3, but they're being phased out for 4).

If anything it has too much grip for the power. You can still get it moving in the wet but you have to try. It won't let go by accident and I have no issues with sitting at 90 on the motorway when it's raining.

In the dry however it means you have way too much grip to have any fun in the dry. But again, depends what you want from the car. If it was just me driving it I'd probably put some  cheaper tyres on as I don't use it to commute or many long journeys, but her indoors uses it a lot and she's not a very experienced driver so I like her having the safety net of better tyres.

[McMr2]

Trusting the car sums it up. Lots to check here but it seems I need to calibrate my driving to the car. Planning to take it off the road for winter so it might be a good time to do a bit of work.

[Bernie]

The problem I've seen over the years & so many getting wrecked is that so many drivers just don't appreciate the fact that in the wet it's a completely different driving style needed
So many coming from FWD just don't wind back the right foot hoon it as if it's dry & bin them, so sad to see so many that get totalled in this manner


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[mikek]

Agreed. Kate has the exact same tyre set up although she is running 28 and 35 tyre pressures. She has driven it all year with no issues. I think it's probably the shocks and a need to be sensible in the wet.

[cabbydave]

Sounds typical Toyo tyres. I had the same problem put Dunlops on and not a problem.

[shnazzle]

Is it me or are the Toyos (formerly the de facto standard for the 2) quickly losing popularity?
Odd as they've been run for years by people on here as one of the best suiting tyres.

Seems theyve been overtaken by the AD08s and Bridgestones

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[MR TWO]

Is it me or are the Toyos (formerly the de facto standard for the 2) quickly losing popularity?
Odd as they've been run for years by people on here as one of the best suiting tyres.

Seems theyve been overtaken by the AD08s and Bridgestones

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Toyo's definitely have a fair few detractors here on the forum and AD08R seem to attract more praise than most.

Personally Toyo's are fine on my car and I have no problems in the wet.

I do think that rear wheel drive, mid engine cars on wet roads can be a handful for their new owners. It takes time and practice to feel confident!

[Carolyn]

The problem I've seen over the years & so many getting wrecked is that so many drivers just don't appreciate the fact that in the wet it's a completely different driving style needed
So many coming from FWD just don't wind back the right foot hoon it as if it's dry & bin them, so sad to see so many that get totalled in this manner


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Totally agree. Strong views on this one:  On a public road you are obligated to drive in accordance with conditions.  Hooning in the wet is plain bad driving.  'Binning it' could involve an innocent third party.  If your tyres are lousy in the wet they are not appropriate for UK driving.