Gains with ARC filter and Custom Exhaust? w/PFC

xdesign · January 17, 2005, 10:27

[mod = GSB] Split from Apexi PFC topic. [/mod]

What gains should I expect with just an ARC filter and a custom exhaust do you think?

Anonymous · January 17, 2005, 13:16

Import tuner ran dyno tests on a stock Spyder, one with a dual exhaust setup, and one with dual+TRD filter.

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/0103it_ppmrspyder/index.html

They got .2 hp from the filter, about 2 from the pipes. The gains in sound quality, however, are harder to quantify.

xdesign · January 17, 2005, 13:31

I meant with the PFC installed.

mph · January 17, 2005, 15:06

Nothing significant. Probably enough for a dyno to reliably pick up (1-3hp) but not enough for a person to pick up on. However as stated, the bigger gains are from the 'quality' the noise produced from the system.

xdesign · January 17, 2005, 15:29

You mean, I spend $1000 for 1-3 HP?!?!?!?!?! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

Jap GT300 · January 17, 2005, 19:08

I've seen a couple of american magazines that have gained between 10-15hp after tuning a PFC to subtle mods like an exhaust and filter.

Anonymous · January 17, 2005, 21:06

MWR dynoed a car at 140whp with PFC so that is more like a 15-20whp gain. s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

juansolo · January 17, 2005, 21:40

Did they dyno the car standard first or work that out based on the stock figures. If they didn't then the figure is meaningless*

*not to mention very, very unlikely.

Anonymous · January 17, 2005, 22:11

No they had a before and after. I think it was done on a celica though. I will try and find the dyno run. They are very good with the Power FC.

Anonymous · January 17, 2005, 22:31

Ok found the dyno chart.

The top line is the PFC tuned + AEM intake + TRD exhaust + DC header
The bottom line is without PFC.

140whp is really nice for just a few mods. The power FC tune gains 5hp max I think but the midrange is really improved a lot.

xdesign · January 18, 2005, 06:28

That's more like it!!!!

Thanx!

I'm still debating whether I should get it tuned or not yet.

It's 450 Euro!!!

juansolo · January 18, 2005, 06:49

According to that chart that's a flywheel figure not whp. 140whp would put it in the region of 168bhp (est) at the flywheel*. FWIW whp is better from a rolling road and is more accurate for working out gains/losses through tuning. Getting flywheel hp from rollers requires the operator to try and work out the transmission losses (to get a flywheel figure) by doing a coast down test.

As it is, that graph** shows a 5hp gain (peak). More interesting are the gains in mid range and the improvement in torque. Which is were it really matters in drivability terms rather than the figure at the top of the page.

* Plucks 20% transmission losses out of the air. It would put your standard car at around 162bhp if they were whp figures, a 6 hp gain rather than 5.
**Green lines power, blue torque. Darker lines look like the original plot.

xdesign · January 18, 2005, 09:07

Quote from: "juansolo"... More interesting are the gains in mid range and the improvement in torque. Which is were it really matters in drivability terms rather than the figure at the top of the page.

I second that!!! And I do feel a difference even now that is not perfectly tuned!

Anonymous · January 18, 2005, 09:13

Quote from: "juansolo"According to that chart that's a flywheel figure not whp. 140whp would put it in the region of 168bhp (est) at the flywheel*. FWIW whp is better from a rolling road and is more accurate for working out gains/losses through tuning. Getting flywheel hp from rollers requires the operator to try and work out the transmission losses (to get a flywheel figure) by doing a coast down test.

As it is, that graph** shows a 5hp gain (peak). More interesting are the gains in mid range and the improvement in torque. Which is were it really matters in drivability terms rather than the figure at the top of the page.

* Plucks 20% transmission losses out of the air. It would put your standard car at around 162bhp if they were whp figures, a 6 hp gain rather than 5.
**Green lines power, blue torque. Darker lines look like the original plot.

juan that is WHP but the software for some reason writes Flywheel hp on the chart.

Stock power for a celica is usually about 120whp.

juansolo · January 18, 2005, 09:23

You can't compare factory figures to rolling road figures* Which is why you should always do a before and after on the same rollers and measure the gains. This is the only true way to measure the difference as no two engines are the same.

The plot above is showing a 5 hp gain peak from as it was measured stock. Whatever the factory state as the power is irrelevant as you have properly tested before and after on the same rollers. This is as accurate a measure of the difference as you can get without taking the engine out and slapping it on an engine dyno.

*Cynical mode: No matter how often things are calibrated, you often get different readings from one set of rollers to another. Given that percieved outputs is what makes these people money I wouldn't be surprised if many overread a little or are generous when calculating transmission losses to keep the punters happy...

Anonymous · January 18, 2005, 10:34

juan. I agree with you that you have to do a before and after.

As I stated above that is not a stock vs pfc. That is an IHE vs IEH and PFC.

I do not think the numbers are fudged simply because others got the same gains on different dynos. Monkeywrench would gain nothing by posting inflated gains since they are basically the only shop that supports the US celica community with the PFC and tuning and they will get their reputation in the ground by overstating their gains.

Like what happend with the 2ZZ-GE dynos these ones are accurate. When they reported their gains with the 2ZZ-GE PFC the clients that dynod their cars got about the same gains.

5hp is reasonable with a PFC IMO. And about 15-20 hp is also reasonable for a full intake and exhaust mod + Power FC. Shame we do not have a stock power run done before they put the PFC +mods on the same day to compare.

Anonymous · January 18, 2005, 10:36

I think there was someone who also got 140hp to the wheels on an MR-S. Still like you say you can't compare but it at least gives you the idea that it does work.

juansolo · January 18, 2005, 11:53

Indeed.

mph · January 18, 2005, 15:57

Quote from: "xdesign"You mean, I spend $1000 for 1-3 HP?!?!?!?!?! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:

The original question was "What gains should I expect with just an ARC filter and a custom exhaust do you think?"
1-3bhp is about right for that question, regardless whether or not you've got a PFC fitted. It's the PFC that will get you 15-25bhp in the first place. The main CAT restricts the airflow much more than the air filter nor exhaust.

Anonymous · January 18, 2005, 22:34

What he said.

crankshaft · January 18, 2005, 23:26

Just as a point of refrence, I have the TTE twin exhaust, De-catted and the free-flow inlet pipe from the GB.

Mine was dynoed with these mods a month ago as 144bhp at the wheels, after fitting the unichip & tunining on a rolling road, there was no noticeable increase in the max bhp.

Admittedly, it does feel a bit different when driving with the unichip !

Crankshaft

xdesign · January 19, 2005, 05:55

Quote from: "mph"
Quote from: "xdesign"You mean, I spend $1000 for 1-3 HP?!?!?!?!?! s:shock: :shock: s:shock:
The original question was "What gains should I expect with just an ARC filter and a custom exhaust do you think?"

Correct, but not my fault! That question was posted in a PFC topic and was moved as a new topic by GSB. He used it as a topic title! (See first post).
That's why I edited and put "w/PFC" later on.

Anyhow. 15-25HP sounds great!!!

xdesign · January 19, 2005, 05:57

Quote from: "crankshaft"Just as a point of refrence, I have the TTE twin exhaust, De-catted and the free-flow inlet pipe from the GB.

Mine was dynoed with these mods a month ago as 144bhp at the wheels, after fitting the unichip & tunining on a rolling road, there was no noticeable increase in the max bhp.

Admittedly, it does feel a bit different when driving with the unichip !

Crankshaft

Yes, what I see is that the gains in power are throughout the whole range of RPMs. Who cares about peak power anyhow?!?!?! s:shock: :shock: s:shock: s:lol: :lol: s:lol: