Wheel Alignment - do I need it?

[HFB]

Do I need to have my wheels re-aligning? Had an OSR wheel bearing replaced last week whilst sailing through my MOT  s:) s:)  so thought I'd check the geometry as I am off to Bedford on Monday for a trackday. Anyway these were the readings (F1 Tyre Centre) which are just inside, bar the rear right the safe green zones. They all look a bit off, but I'm no specialist and don't know if these readings are pretty standard (and made to look scary so that as a punter, I'd want to have them fixed) or they are going to cause undue wear on my AD08's and be expensive if I don't get the adjustments done. Thanks

[ChrisGB]

Is it just me, I cannot see the images?

[StuC]

Nope, I cannot see them either.  s:-( :-( s:-(

[JoeCool]

can't see images, as is common with google drive images.

Try uploading to imgur.com and then copy the image urls into img tags.

[HFB]

Sorry everyone.....hopefully fixed now!

[JoeCool]

Fixed now.

Personally I'd want it a bit more even left to right. There's nothing wrong with the amount of camber you are running, -1.5 deg is fine, -2 towards aggressive. I'd also want that rear toe sorting a bit, reducing toe on the right rear and sorting out the thrust angle.

[shnazzle]

Just going to be blunt here... That's bad.

Why is the left side so cambered vs the right?
-2 is aggressive, anything over that I wouldnt run on the road.

But seriously, get it aligned because your tyre wear will be uneven.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[HFB]

Thanks guys.......

So for a track car what settings should I ask them to put it to?

Going to Bedford Monday and do Brands Hatch Indy 2 or 3 times a year....so should it be set up for them, or just make it all as neutral as possible?

HFB

[jonty]

settings used by PhilMC half way down this page are good, you could go for -1.5° rear camber as a slightly less aggressive setup though. Definitely get it done, will make a world of difference!

I'd start with this then for future track days you can refine it as you choose to get the balance how you like, nothing to say dead neutral is best depending on driving style and confidence

[JoeCool]

This is what Wheels in Motion set mine to when asked for 'Fast Road'' (right hand column, it was a mess when I handed it over as everything was new and just bolted on).

So
Rear: ~1.5 Deg neg camber, 10 minutes of toe in.
Front: ~1.2 Deg Neg Camber, 5 Minutes of Toe in.

I can't vouch for this yet, it feels fine on the road but I've put very few miles on it. It looks broadly similar to what  I ran on the Nurburgring last year which was a good, forgiving set up. Talking to the mechanic, he was advising keeping toe pretty stock, and putting a bit more camber on it for 'fast road'' style settings.

[shnazzle]

Exactly what they told me at AK Automotive. Hence I'm running stock toe, -2 on the rear and -1.2 front.
I really like it.

Wasn't sure at first as it's quite a departure from the stock. It felt more nervous on the motorway and hit tramlines harder. But I don't even notice anymore at all. Don't know why.
It's all worth it on the b-roads,and track I would imagine

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[Essex2Visuvesi]

I had my RX8 done and the difference was night and day. Only had some tiny adjustments done but it certainly was noticeable

[HFB]

OK....so just did a trip to Kwik Fit to have a second check and to do a quick adjustment.

Here was the before


and the after



They said that there was no way to adjust the cambers on this car, which confused me. I know the rear isn't adjustable (unless you fit camber adjusters) but I thought the front were adjustable (especially as I thought having Meister coilovers, made them even more-so).

Anyway, at least thrust angle is straight.

Not sure what I can do to even up the rear camber though?

HFB

[1979scotte]

OK....so just did a trip to Kwik Fit to have a second check and to do a quick adjustment.

Here was the before


and the after



They said that there was no way to adjust the cambers on this car, which confused me. I know the rear isn't adjustable (unless you fit camber adjusters) but I thought the front were adjustable (especially as I thought having Meister coilovers, made them even more-so).

Anyway, at least thrust angle is straight.

Not sure what I can do to even up the rear camber though?

HFB

Kwik fits vary.
I know the one that my car went to did an ok job because it was checked 6 months later at DT.
Meister R fronts are adjustable for camber surely. What else are the adjustable top mounts for?

[1979scotte]

This is what Wheels in Motion set mine to when asked for 'Fast Road'' (right hand column, it was a mess when I handed it over as everything was new and just bolted on).

Rear: ~1.5 Deg neg camber, 10 minutes of toe in.
Front: ~1.2 Deg Neg Camber, 5 Minutes of Toe in.

I can't vouch for this yet, it feels fine on the road but I've put very few miles on it. It looks broadly similar to what  I ran on the Nurburgring last year which was a good, forgiving set up. Talking to the mechanic, he was advising keeping toe pretty stock, and putting a bit more camber on it for 'fast road'' style settings.

Very similar to what Ardent got when he went to WIM and i think we all know he is very happy.

[JoeCool]

Meister R's have a slotted top bolt hole and camber adjustable top plates. You can go from about +2 to - insane camber on the front. So kwik fit had you on that, they could have sorted front camber out, but it's effort so that's why they didn't bother.

Most important thing is how does it drive now? The toe alone should have made a difference.

Also, you can just say you've got is set up for clockwise circuits and/or to compensate for drivers weight ;p

The rears you need a cammed camber bolt, they cost about £ 20 a pair and I believe Toyota do oem ones. Some go in the top hole, some go in the bottom but never both, you need to keep one of the big crash bolts in there for safety's sake.

[Ardent]

HFB
Part number 90105-14147
I paid about £3.50 each from Mr T and it gave wheels in motion all the adjustment he needed. Does not look a lot on the bolt  but the 1mm shallower shank makes all the difference.
If you look at the top table in the pic you are looking for the type C
I may be doing them a dis service but for something like this I would not trust Kwik-fit.

[lamcote]

So, you had your before setup measured twice, first at F1 tyre centre and then at KwikFit. These should both presumably have given the same results, let's compare them (the first measurement I quote for each is from the F1 centre):

Left front camber: -2.5 (F1)  and -2.26 (KwikFit)  Right front camber: -1.5 and -2.16!!
Left front toe: 0.25 and 0.2 Right front toe: 0.4 and -0.16!!

Left rear camber: -2.2 and -2.3 Right rear camber: -1.6 and -1.8
Left rear toe: 0.3 and -0.016!!  Right rear toe: 0.85 and 0.55!!

Some pretty serious discrepancies there marked with!! Three of the four toe measurements are simply miles apart...

[1979scotte]

So, you had your before setup measured twice, first at F1 tyre centre and then at KwikFit. These should both presumably have given the same results, let's compare them (the first measurement for each is the F1 centre):

Left front camber: - 2.5 (F1)  and - 2.26 (KwikFit)  Right front camber: - 1.5 and - 2.16!!
Left front toe: 0.25 and 0.2 Right front toe: 0.4 and - 0.16!!

Left rear camber: - 2.2 and - 2.3 Right rear camber: - 1.6 and - 1.8
Left rear toe: 0.3 and - 0.016!!  Right rear toe: 0.85 and 0.55!!

Some pretty serious discrepancies there marked with!! Three of the four toe measurements are simply miles apart...

Someone is still sober!
Well done that man.
Either these guys dont know how to use their euipment or the suspension isnt secure.
I know its more money but i think you need to go somewhere that really knows their stuff.
Abbey Motorsport should know their stuff. You are Gatwick arent you? They are Oxted not far from J6 M25.

EDIT.
Get your money back from kwikfit. They lied to you.

[lamcote]

I do numbers better when drunk!

[1979scotte]

I do numbers better when drunk!

Cool.
I will get you a few large ones and you can do my tax return for me.  s;) s;)

[lamcote]

I don't think I can handle numbers that big....

[1979scotte]

I don't think I can handle numbers that big....

I wish.

[JoeCool]

Alternatively... Suspension is dynamic. Your wheels describe a complex path as the shocks compress, under load, etc. As they adjust the suspension you should see them give it a good shake, rock the car back and forth, bounce it, all to settle the suspension into some approximation of a static position. Unload it from the machine, load it back on, re set up the wheel reflector thingies... You'll get different results. Hence the margin of error on all the target data.

[lamcote]

That kind of undermines the whole process doesn't it? How does anyone define the correct static position? Surely there shouldn't be the kind of discrepancy noted here if the car is in remotely the same position?

Edit. Looking at the left rear specifically as an example, the camber measurements are quite close, this shows the suspension must be more or less in the same position, yet the toe angle shows enormous variance, that must be either user error or loose wheels! If that degree of toe change was acceptable within small suspension movements the car would be undriveable.

How do we know that for sure? Because the suspension will be designed to generate more camber change than toe change over its normal range of travel. The measurements suggest the exact opposite to this so something is wrong.

To put this into context, the toe variance at the left rear is nearly 0.4 degrees. Porsche's four wheel steering system only steers the rear wheels by a maximum of 2.8 degrees at full lock.