M1tch's long term 1ZZ build - Project 11

[thetyrant]

Once you get the oil changed start to use all the rev range, not doing hard loads or bouncing it off the limiter but do let it rev right up in lower gears as this gets pressure on the rings helping them bed into cylinders.

Run a magnet through the oil that comes out as well see how much metal you get, there will probably be some small particles with a full build and on next change it should be pretty metal free.

Keep up the good work

[m1tch]

Once you get the oil changed start to use all the rev range, not doing hard loads or bouncing it off the limiter but do let it rev right up in lower gears as this gets pressure on the rings helping them bed into cylinders.

Run a magnet through the oil that comes out as well see how much metal you get, there will probably be some small particles with a full build and on next change it should be pretty metal free.

Keep up the good work

Yeah for the initial miles I am not going full revs but more about varying the load and going to say 75% throttle, then back off to let the rings cool, now that I know a piston and rod hasn't gone through the block at 5k rpm I will push on to 6k and so on. I can tell that the engine is free-ing up though, not sure I will take it to 8,500 rpm for a while though!

Will clean up my oil drain pan a bit, its currently full of bearing chunks from one of the donor engines lol might be slightly misleading! Oil is cheap, this engine isn't so I have I think another 3 oil filters sitting on the bench, will use the next 5 litres of the specific break in oil then swap over to basic mineral oil. I think my break in oil I have is only good for 500-1000 miles.

[thetyrant]

Sounds sensible, personally i would only use break-in oils for very short periods changing at 100-200 miles max and use plenty of revs to get the rings sealed then move onto mineral oil or semi-synthetic for better bearing protection so you can work the engine increasingly harder as miles click on.

All engine builders have different opinions on running in and while im not a "run it in in 5minutes" kind of guy i do like to work them fairly hard from the off with frequent oil/filter changes etc to remove anything thats getting in there from the break-in, if its built right it will take it

At the end of the day rings should bed in pretty quickly with revs and thats it as all your really bedding in,  the bearings dont need to bed in as they should just be correct from the off and relying on the oil film to keep them metal off metal, hence going to a better oil as soon as you can so your not worried about lack of lube on bearings as you rev it more etc, on mine ive done 2 changes using semi synth and just about to do 3rd one, 1st @ 190 miles, 2nd @ 550miles and now just over 900 so going to switch back to fully synthetic

[m1tch]

Sounds sensible, personally i would only use break-in oils for very short periods changing at 100-200 miles max and use plenty of revs to get the rings sealed then move onto mineral oil or semi-synthetic for better bearing protection so you can work the engine increasingly harder as miles click on.

All engine builders have different opinions on running in and while im not a "run it in in 5minutes" kind of guy i do like to work them fairly hard from the off with frequent oil/filter changes etc to remove anything thats getting in there from the break-in, if its built right it will take it

At the end of the day rings should bed in pretty quickly with revs and thats it as all your really bedding in,  the bearings dont need to bed in as they should just be correct from the off and relying on the oil film to keep them metal off metal, hence going to a better oil as soon as you can so your not worried about lack of lube on bearings as you rev it more etc, on mine ive done 2 changes using semi synth and just about to do 3rd one, 1st @ 190 miles, 2nd @ 550miles and now just over 900 so going to switch back to fully synthetic

I am going on the advice of High Performance Academy which basically makes perfect sense:

Moderate load and revs for say 10 seconds up to around 5k
30 second on lower load to let the rings cool down so they don't overheat with all the extra friction
Repeat
Don't let it idle whilst hot
Break in will be complete in the first 100-200km if its been properly bed in or not

You don't 'bed in' bearings - the crank and bearings will never meet as there is always (hopefully) the oil film will be there.

I agree that the break in oil is only very very short usage, it has extra additives to help protect surfaces slightly more but can't be used for normal use.

Will get myself some basic mineral or semi synthetic after this oil change - will be changing it out more regularly than usual but not after 50 miles lol. A lot of the bedding in would have been done by now so this first oil change will probably be removing most of the swarf/engine break in lubricants etc.

[Call the midlife!]

Everyone has their own ideas about how to break in an engine, just pick one and stick to it then you'll know for next time if it works or not.
Have a watch of the Skid Factory episode where they break the freshly rebuilt MK1 in on the dyno using the laptop to control the revs. Totally different regime to driving it in.

[m1tch]

Everyone has their own ideas about how to break in an engine, just pick one and stick to it then you'll know for next time if it works or not.
Have a watch of the Skid Factory episode where they break the freshly rebuilt MK1 in on the dyno using the laptop to control the revs. Totally different regime to driving it in.

Indeed, its still using the same sort of principle of making sure the rings are loaded to then push against the honed bored to bed them in. Think the worst thing you can do is idle it and drive around carefully at low revs though as that's not going to bed in anything!

[Call the midlife!]

Everyone has their own ideas about how to break in an engine, just pick one and stick to it then you'll know for next time if it works or not.
Have a watch of the Skid Factory episode where they break the freshly rebuilt MK1 in on the dyno using the laptop to control the revs. Totally different regime to driving it in.

Indeed, its still using the same sort of principle of making sure the rings are loaded to then push against the honed bored to bed them in. Think the worst thing you can do is idle it and drive around carefully at low revs though as that's not going to bed in anything!

Nah, the worst thing you can do is drive it on running in oil to get a custom exhaust made while running ridiculously rich and wash the bores, then put it on the dyno.

[shnazzle]

Everyone has their own ideas about how to break in an engine, just pick one and stick to it then you'll know for next time if it works or not.
Have a watch of the Skid Factory episode where they break the freshly rebuilt MK1 in on the dyno using the laptop to control the revs. Totally different regime to driving it in.

Indeed, its still using the same sort of principle of making sure the rings are loaded to then push against the honed bored to bed them in. Think the worst thing you can do is idle it and drive around carefully at low revs though as that's not going to bed in anything!

Nah, the worst thing you can do is drive it on running in oil to get a custom exhaust made while running ridiculously rich and wash the bores, then put it on the dyno.

Pff... Hearsay. You have no proof of this being a bad thing to do... 


hehehe

[Call the midlife!]

Everyone has their own ideas about how to break in an engine, just pick one and stick to it then you'll know for next time if it works or not.
Have a watch of the Skid Factory episode where they break the freshly rebuilt MK1 in on the dyno using the laptop to control the revs. Totally different regime to driving it in.

Indeed, its still using the same sort of principle of making sure the rings are loaded to then push against the honed bored to bed them in. Think the worst thing you can do is idle it and drive around carefully at low revs though as that's not going to bed in anything!

Nah, the worst thing you can do is drive it on running in oil to get a custom exhaust made while running ridiculously rich and wash the bores, then put it on the dyno.

Pff... Hearsay. You have no proof of this being a bad thing to do...


hehehe

See what winter brings 🤓

[m1tch]

Just changed the oil over, done another 5 miles or so but then had issues where in the heat it started to stall out at roundabouts, checking the fuel trims it is pulling a lot of fuel out - engine management light is on which is to be expected as the knock sensor is unplugged.

I am going to convert it over to the standalone ECU and run it on the MAP sensor incase the MAF is having issues, will plug it in later.

Still need to support the exhaust better but it should be ok for a bit, have another aftermarket bracket coming as the main cat bracket rusted off when taking it off.

Will give everything a check over in terms of oil etc, can't see any leaks or any other issues - might just be the hot weather that is causing issues with the stock ECU considering its trying to run an engine that isn't 100% a stock size.

I did pull one of the plugs which were slightly darker but not fouled - can still see the markings in the top of the pistons though so its not really running super rich.

Wideband is plugged in now so will see what its running at.

[thetyrant]

Eeek hopefully a minor glitch mate!  did you scan to see if any error codes? (other than missing knock sensor)

[m1tch]

Eeek hopefully a minor glitch mate!  did you scan to see if any error codes? (other than missing knock sensor)

No other error codes, really hope its not a major issue, will check everything over - started to panic again though but it does seem to just be a case of the stock ECU trying to get the engine to idle properly and might just be a case of taking a while to try and get the trims correct - which might be out of spec for the stock ECU.

Hopefully the Link ECU will get it to idle and run slightly better as it has the option to autofuel whilst driving - issue being is that I cannot idle the engine for long as its not good for break in.

Really hope its not broken! Have followed EVERYTHING by the book on this due to the expense.

[thetyrant]

Fingers crossed its something minor buddy as you say you have done stuff as it should be, i would be inclined to try and work out why stock ecu wont run it before switching to the Link, how far out are the trims ?

[m1tch]

Fingers crossed its something minor buddy as you say you have done stuff as it should be, i would be inclined to try and work out why stock ecu wont run it before switching to the Link, how far out are the trims ?

Stock ECU will run it - just not that well, trims were pulling fuel out like crazy, last check it was at -25% short term with it then adding to the long term trims as well. It does have a lighter flywheel so I guess if the trims weren't perfect it couldn't catch the falling idle on the way down, I did reset the codes so it might be the case that its still trying to correct and would need some driving around although I did feel like it was bogging a bit when driving it.

I did fire the car up with the wideband and the stock ECU running, was sitting at 14.7:1 on idle dropping to around 13:1 when I blipped the throttle so seems to be ok, think it might just be fuel trim related, the Link can adjust fuel trims far faster and will look to log on startup when I get a chance.

[thetyrant]

Hmmm im presuming it was running fine up until now though ? changing ecu will give you more data but the stock ecu should run it fine even with the light flywheel etc, hopefully its something simple and cant think how anything in the engine build that would cause this (without making nasty noises) so probably just a sensor or leak somewhere.

[Call the midlife!]

Sounds a lot like a sticky IACV, mine was the same after being stood for a while, especially if you cleaned it when you took it out on the strip down?
It could also be that you need to have it idling a good bit higher than standard for it to sit pretty.
I know you went back to standard cams but mine and at least one others car with lumpy cams need to idle around 1000-1100, especially with the lightweight flywheel.

[m1tch]

I have just switched over to the Link ECU, its running better but now have the task of dialling the tuning in slightly from the original maps I tuned.

To throw an additional spanner in the works, previously the engine would idle at say mid to high 30kpa, its now up at mid 40s so the idle cell locations have moved slightly.

The car does pull strongly with the Link though, think it might have just been a case of the stock ECU being on the limit of what it could adjust, especially with no knock sensor.

[Call the midlife!]

Hope you get it sorted, just as an observation though you're probably better off quoting your idle speeds etc in rpm on posts for advice, it makes it easier for everyone to recognise previous issues etc.
30kpa means nothing to me or I imagine a lot of other people.

[shnazzle]

Hope you get it sorted, just as an observation though you're probably better off quoting your idle speeds etc in rpm on posts for advice, it makes it easier for everyone to recognise previous issues etc.
30kpa means nothing to me or I imagine a lot of other people.

Pressure definitely gives a very useful picture. 

You want as much vacuum as possible at idle.

As you said, idle speed is also very dependent on the setup.

[m1tch]

Idle speed is set to 1k rpm at the moment as it was on the previous engine, have just uploaded a slightly new map after also tweaking the injector timing as well and it seems a bit more stable.

I still need to sort out the exhaust hanger on the main cat but its slowly getting there - main concern for me is to get the car under load as much as possible to get the rings bed in rather than no load at idle.

Will probably take it out a bit later and see what its like and get some more logging done.

[m1tch]

I have temporarily sorted an extra hanger on the exhaust - its ok but not perfect, will be changing over to my 'bag of snakes' exhaust manifold and a sports cat midpipe at some point soon. The sports cat midpipe has an O2 bung pre and post cat so I can run my wideband precat to get the mixtures across the board rather than using 2 of the runners in the stock exhaust. I have checked plugs etc and the engine does seem to burn cleanly across all cylinders the same so taking the O2 readings from just 2 of the runners is ok at the moment.

I have tweaked a few of the settings within the Link in terms of the idle tables after a few logging runs and will see how it goes with these changes.

The engine itself runs well, I can see that it needs a tweak to the fuel map as looking at some of the fuel corrections the ECU is making, some cells are needing 6% less fuel, some are fine though.

Once I get the idle sorted and have a few more miles on the engine - think its done about 70 miles in total so far, I will look to make a few more amends, also need to get the Bosch doughnut knock sensor wired in as well - no huge rush with that though as the 1zz isn't knock limited.

[shnazzle]

Are you sure about that?
To my knowledge the 1zz is rather knock limited indeed.

In fact, it's used as the test mule at HP Academy because it's easy to induce knock, which they use to demonstrate knock and what it sounds like. 

But, you are running much lower comp now so you're probably alright now. Is it 8:1 you're on?

You're on there as well aren't you? Ask the question in the forum. Those guys know the ins and outs of the 1zz with almost every ecu

[m1tch]

Are you sure about that?
To my knowledge the 1zz is rather knock limited indeed.

In fact, it's used as the test mule at HP Academy because it's easy to induce knock, which they use to demonstrate knock and what it sounds like. 

But, you are running much lower comp now so you're probably alright now. Is it 8:1 you're on?

You're on there as well aren't you? Ask the question in the forum. Those guys know the ins and outs of the 1zz with almost every ecu

I am using the same timings as I have done before and logged the knock values on all cylinders - MBT on this engine is at around 30 degrees advanced. I will be getting the knock sensor sorted out very very soon but as its NA, any knock won't destroy the engine as it would do on a boosted engine. I went for a static CR of 9.5:1, the 8.8:1 off the shelf pistons are too low for a street driven car as they are very lazy off boost. The Ford Ecoboost engine has a CR of 10:1 - back in the 90s I would have probably dropped the CR lower but with modern ECUs and injectors you don't need to drop the CR too low as the electronics are now far more advanced.

Here is a quote from Andre from the HPA forum:

"If it helps, on our local 98 octane pump gas we reach MBT at about 30 deg BTDC at high rpm and WOT. The engine isn't knock limited on this fuel and just doesn't make more power/torque with any more timing."

[shnazzle]

Must be on 98 then. Odd. There was an article explaining why they chose the 1zz and it was because they were plentiful, very simple and easy to make knock..

[m1tch]

Have just installed the Bosch 'wideband' knock sensor, will get everything setup but I think the cylinder trim % on them look to be about right as the sensor is in the same place as before.