1ZZ power limits

[1979scotte]

Wow really?

I thought all dyno results showed the power measured at the wheels. Since that's where the power is tested from when they put it on the rolling road.

You learn something new every day...

I think the idea behind it is that it is easier to compare to manufacturers figures.

[m1tch]

I would also go with a hub dyno rather than a rolling road dyno as then its the power actually going to the wheels (irrespective of traction of the tyres on the drum) - flywheel horsepower is a calculated metric much like bhp (torque and bhp must crossover at 5,252 rpm).

[stevex]

A turbo'd 1zz is very fun. As mentioned it seems, 220-240 is safe on stock internals.

A TTE kit runs a cast manifold, t25 flange tb2559, running 9.7 psi Max. That's with a free flowing exhaust and high flow element in the standard air box. Standard 1zz injectors and a piggy back. TTE with sports cat and high flow exhaust runs around 200hp and 210ish ft lb. more than enough for fun in a 980kg car, injectors are maxed out at this level as is the air filtration though.

A good condition stock clutch can take that boost, but more than low 200 ft lb's it will slip.

Crank as mentioned I am told is good, rods good up to mid 200's.

To get 240ish you will need to upgrade to 2zz or any other larger injectors, free flowing induction over a base kit (you'll need an ecu and remap anyway).

I'm going for 260+ at the moment (although upgrades will be good for over 300, but Can;t go that high without killing the box, I will upgrade the box at some point). I'm currently upgrading to a gt28rs turbo, with a rebuild on forged rods and the latest design OE pistons. Have been told stock pistons are good for 320, but rods are weak and you risking it with 260+, hence forging is good. I am told at this level a bigger IC or chargecooler is required for best efficiency and space limits a good charge cooler would be best. I'm currently upgrading to a charge cooler. You'd need a decent clutch pack too, mine is an ACT, but there are plenty of options online for performance clutch packs.

I think you can use quite a few aftermarket ECU solutions, but link storm G4 seems to be the favoured. If you want to run higher power don't get a TTE piggy back (if you managed to find one), they aren't mappable, hence changing mine to a G4.

You'll also need a decent electronic boost controller to change the default wastegate pressure.

When my car is complete I hope it drives well. A turbo'd 1zz running around 200hp / Ft lb seems to be the sweet spot, makes for a very fun and involving car, I've had loads of fun at that level.  Although something like a tb2559 (popular in Saab's so easy to find on the second hand market) spool just before 3k but run out of puff at 6k. It makes the car very fun, someone told me it drives like a very torquey diesel, and I agree.

Sadly the muppet I bought my car from flogged it on to me after a few months of ownership due to an oil consumption problem - guess he didn't have the cash to fix it, but his loss is my gain, this car build will cost me in total about half that of a decent vx220 turbo, and will be a much better car. So anyway, it needed a rebuild anyway, so may as well go the whole hog and upgrade everything  s:) s:)

Get a 1zz turbo, you won't regret it!

[woodypk]

Thanks for the information Steve.

Almost done with my install.

I was mistaken before. I mentioned looking for 260whp but I didn't realise the dyno give figures at the crank. It seems I'm looking to get 260bhp on the dyno readout which probably means more like 220-230 at the wheels.

Do you think it would be possible to run a manual boost controller over an electronic one?

[m1tch]

Thanks for the information Steve.

Almost done with my install.

I was mistaken before. I mentioned looking for 260whp but I didn't realise the dyno give figures at the crank. It seems I'm looking to get 260bhp on the dyno readout which probably means more like 220-230 at the wheels.

Do you think it would be possible to run a manual boost controller over an electronic one?

No reason why you can't run a manual boost control, however the electronic boost controllers are going to be far more programmable as you can set boost by gear as well as vary the boost in car rather than having to go into the engine bay and guess the right setting on the manual one.

[woodypk]

But is there Any reason to want to change the. Boost once it's set?

I've heard that the Greddy Profec electronic boost controller is good but it's very pricey when compared to a manual one. Are there any other cheap but reliable options?

[shnazzle]

Profec is expensive because is a very clever bit of kit. As said, it allows for boost per gear etc. This can save your gearbox. I believe Leethesparky is running one still in combination with his emanage ecu. He's done it all himself and it's stable

Manual controllers (if you get a good one!) are absolutely fine but you get a much more binary boost experience. Your foot is the Profec  s:) s:)

Don't get a cheap eBay manual controller. They all look the same but they're not. A bad one can cause horrible boost spikes or leaks.

[stevex]

Thanks for the information Steve.

Almost done with my install.

I was mistaken before. I mentioned looking for 260whp but I didn't realise the dyno give figures at the crank. It seems I'm looking to get 260bhp on the dyno readout which probably means more like 220-230 at the wheels.

Do you think it would be possible to run a manual boost controller over an electronic one?

Nice, fast progress then! Look forward to the update  s:) s:)

The other chaps are right, but the only manual one I would use is something like a turbo smart, but they are fine.

[woodypk]

Are there any cheaper and reliable versions of the electronic boost controller. I've seen the turbosmart manual controller is about £65 on eBay and the profec is around £180.

I've never had a turbo car so I'm not sure what an electronic boost controller vs a manual one would feel like so I'm happy to go with anything that works and is realiable.

I will admit, I had purchased a manual boost controller 'fleeBay special' which after reading this, I won't be using. Thanks for the heads up btw guys...

[shnazzle]

180 is cheap as chips!

The Profec is good but it isn't the most feature-full controller.
But it does what you need; overboost warning and protection, boost control, different profiles.

It doesn't do boost by gear, by rpm, external factors  protection triggered by temperature etc etc.

But overall it adds a lot over a manual controller.
Overboost protection can't be overrated. I know this for a fact and sadly from experience!

[woodypk]

Is this something that a tuner will setup when I take the car to be mapped? And I'm guessing if so, it will cost more for the mapping the more there is for the tuner to do.

[shnazzle]

Definitely worth mentioning that's for sure. This is where inputs into the ecu of choice matter.
If the car is mapped to boost, then changing boost will throw the tune off. But once you include maps based on maf/map values then the tune automatically chooses the relevant part of the map to run.
So if run a high boost profile on your controller, it measures the airflow/density/pressure and picks where on the map it needs to be.
If you're doing fueling based on throttle/rpm, then it won't know what boost you're running. So it can only assume whatever value you mapped it with.
That's just stupid  s:) s:)

So in short; yes mention it to get advise, but they should be able to map it based on air/fuel ratio. Not throttle/rpm. So whatever tune you get will work for any boost you choose within the limits of the tune.

[m1tch]

Are there any cheaper and reliable versions of the electronic boost controller. I've seen the turbosmart manual controller is about £65 on eBay and the profec is around £180.

I've never had a turbo car so I'm not sure what an electronic boost controller vs a manual one would feel like so I'm happy to go with anything that works and is realiable.

I will admit, I had purchased a manual boost controller 'fleeBay special' which after reading this, I won't be using. Thanks for the heads up btw guys...

There is nothing really wrong with a manual boost controller, you just need to make sure you check your boost guage with how you have set it - basically it bleeds off boost from the boost line going to the wastegate (which controls the overall level of boost by rerouting exhaust gasses). On a manual boost controller it simply bleeds off a set amount from the line, example might be that 1 click or turn might be enough boost bled off to increase the boost by 2psi - as the wastegate 'sees' less boost than there actually is.

The electronic boost controllers (EBCs) have an electronic solinoid which does the same job as a manual boost controller in terms of bleeding off boost, however its connected up to a controller which can then regulate how much boost is bled off to give the desired level of boost. The additional benefit is that some of them you are able to set to not bleed off any boost initially and then control it once more boost starts to build leading to a quicker spool up.

I think initially with a turbo car you would probably be running the car on the wastegate spring rather than boosting up higher initially (although make sure the ECU is mapped to whatever boost level you want) - you don't need to run any boost controllers for the car to run as the turbo wastegate spring will limit the boost.

[woodypk]

First of all, thanks for taking the time to write such detailed replies guys, it really is greatly appreciated.

Secondly, let me get this right...

If I wanted to run a turbo on my car, what components do I definitely need without question, before I upgrade to higher power? Let's say for example the stock spring rate allows enough for 200bhp. Would I not need any boost controller, aftermarket ecu, remap, injectors etc...?

What I'm trying to say is could I just bolt a turbo and intercooler and exhaust etc on and the car would work at the lowest power the turbo would make and the stock ecu would adjust air/fuel as required?

Again, sorry for being such a newb, but every question is helping me to understand more.  

Thanks guys.

[jvanzyl]

I started putting together a DIY turbo thread a while back... Would be good to categorise it properly by levels of power..

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

[shnazzle]

For 200hp you can get away with stock injectors, a dump valve, panel filter, slightly better exhaust, a piggyback ECU and a small intercooler

[1979scotte]

You don't even need a dump valve.
TTE and SP didnt fit them.
7psi spring on a small t25xx turbo would suit you.

[shnazzle]

You don't even need a dump valve.
TTE and SP didnt fit them.
7psi spring on a small t25xx turbo would suit you.

True, just figured for that price of one, might as well to prevent that back pressure

[woodypk]

Ok so I've got
GT28 Turbo, coolant and oil lines - fitted
Manifold - fitted
Exhaust with all bugs for O2/wideband -fitted but don't have a wideband sensor yet
Large intercooler - fitted
Intercooler pipework with MAF - fitted
BOV - fitted
Sump with oil return - fitted
Cooler spark plugs - fitted
What I believe to be lotus 440cc injectors - not fitted yet
PFC ecu - not fitted.

Are there any more components I need to get it running?

[shnazzle]

Considered a stronger clutch? Especially with the wallop from the gt28

[Call the midlife!]

You don't even need a dump valve.
TTE and SP didnt fit them.
7psi spring on a small t25xx turbo would suit you.

True, just figured for that price of one, might as well to prevent that back pressure

Idle curiosity here, fag packet price for a "bolt on" kit? That is to say an entry level, 200ish hp 1zz.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shnazzle]

2.5k minimum, if you're lucky, and use a piggyback that you map yourself.


Woody, which Gt28 are you running? And which a/r?

[Call the midlife!]

2.5k minimum, if you're lucky, and use a piggyback that you map yourself.


Woody, which Gt28 are you running? And which a/r?

Cheers Patrick, appreciated.(starts looking at Porsches on Autotrader..)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shnazzle]

2.5k minimum, if you're lucky, and use a piggyback that you map yourself.


Woody, which Gt28 are you running? And which a/r?

Cheers Patrick, appreciated.(starts looking at Porsches on Autotrader..)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wouldn't worry about it. There's a hell of a lot to be said for a stock 2 over a turbo'd one. Having less power is often, day to day, better than having tons of power that you can use from time to time.
People forget that slapping a turbo on counts as heavily modifying your car. It carries a fair bit of risk and responsibility to maintain it better and more frequently.

[Call the midlife!]

2.5k minimum, if you're lucky, and use a piggyback that you map yourself.


Woody, which Gt28 are you running? And which a/r?

Cheers Patrick, appreciated.(starts looking at Porsches on Autotrader..)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wouldn't worry about it. There's a hell of a lot to be said for a stock 2 over a turbo'd one. Having less power is often, day to day, better than having tons of power that you can use from time to time.
People forget that slapping a turbo on counts as heavily modifying your car. It carries a fair bit of risk and responsibility to maintain it better and more frequently.

And lets face it, you've seen me drive, it would be in a hedge 10 minutes after leaving the tuners![emoji23]
Nah, I'm already at least £1500 over budget and still got plenty on my list of things to do, mainly increasing the weight...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk