2zz Gearbox question

[wallzaveerz]

Well, it would appear that what I initially thought was an annoying tut from the manifold was actually something considerably more terminal.  The top end of my engine now sounds like a tin full of nuts and bolts.

I think I'm going to bite the bullet and put a 2zz in it, my question is this.  I dont really want to be throwing more than the £2K or so its already going to cost at the car.  I have not long since replaced my gearbox and my clutch has done a thousand miles, so im not looking to change either.

Only issue is its a five speed box and although it bolts straight up to the 2zz everything i have read says no no no no no.

Why?

[SteveJ]

The ratios are different to account for the higher revs and to help keep you in the lift-band.

[wallzaveerz]

So its only about the driving characteristics then?  I'm not too bothered about that to be honest.  There is nowhere in this country any more where you could keep it lit up in the lift band for more than two gears without risking an S59 or worse any way.

[Carolyn]

Have you the facility to remove your cam cover and see what's going on?  I only ask as your present engine MAY be repairable for much less expense.  And, as you say, the opportunity to use the 2ZZ performance is so limited, a repaired 1ZZ ain't so bad?  Not much to loose in finding out.

[Ardent]

Carolyn
Your keyboard might need servicing. Possibly a sticky o or a non responsive n.  :-) :-) :-)

Heads for cover.

[wallzaveerz]

The existing engine has been a bug bear since I got the car.  It's never felt right and I've come to the conclusion that one of the cams has been a tooth out from when it was rebuilt (badly) before I bought the car, and to be honest a second hand 1zz is just too much of a gamble for the expense and mither of changing the engine.

So I'm not committing any mortal sin putting the five speed back on a 2zz?  Just won't be as easy to keep it on the boil?   If that is the only reason then I am happy to proceed down that road I think.

[Carolyn]

Fair enough.

[shnazzle]

It'll just be like a 1zz,but you'll hit lift when you go over 6200 rpm in each gear. And then out of lift every time you switch gears  s:) s:)
So I guess you could say that you have more fun because you get to feel lift kick in at every gear change hahaa

[wallzaveerz]

Like a 1zz with 50% more power!  Or more likely 100% more power than the lump of ineffective pig iron I E got in the back of mine.

Right,  I think that's swung it.   Better prepare to give my bank account an enema and clear my evenings and weekends in my diary for a little while.

[JoeCool]

For the £250 plus fettling the 2zz gearbox costs, just do it. You can sell your 5 speed to recoup some cost.

The only reason people say the 2zz is slow is because people put the wrong gearbox on it and it dulls the performance! It's not just the six speed, it's shorter final drive across the board.

That said, get a celica one, the 6th in a corolla box is ridiculously short. Fifth-and-a-bit, really.

[mikek]

+1 don't do the 2zz and not put the right manifold or gearbox in it. Please please please sell your box and put a celica one in it.

[shnazzle]

Listen to the boys.
I know it's gutting you just replaced the clutch, but it's not worth it.
Having driven a 2zz without the Celica final drive, I can tell you it's a challenge to keep it in lift and the "pull" isn't what you'd hope. Hence I said, it'll be a 1zz.

Also... Isn't the clutch interchangeable? Could swap those and have a new clutch  s:) s:)

[alancsalt]

Clutch is interchangeable.

[mikek]

I reused my clutch as it was new

[wallzaveerz]

Isn't £250 for a six speed box a bit optimistic?  

The clutches are interchangeable, and its an exedy so no question marks over quality or it handling the additional power.

[shnazzle]

Nope 250 is definitely doable. Incl lsd.
Have a chat with Dean from Rutland MR2 (breaker section)

Also, I know it's a bit niche but the 5speed boxes can be popular among the track folk. So it might be easier to shift than you think if you put it up in the right place

[shnazzle]

Just thought, Dean doesn't break Celicas /Corollas so someone like Sam Nadeem or the likes would be your best bet

[J03]

2zz Gearbox fitted with longer 6th, currently for sale on Celica Club for £200

[cptspaulding]

2zz Gearbox fitted with longer 6th, currently for sale on Celica Club for £200

Which club would that be? I might go for that.

[1979scotte]

Just my opinion but a secondhand 2zz isn't anymore reliable than a secondhand 1zz there have been quite a few go wrong.
If you aren't going to fit the proper ratio gearbox it's pointless imho.
You don't seem to bothered about extra power anyway so why not spend the Dosh on a properly rebuilt 1zz.

[wallzaveerz]

Of course I'm bothered about the extra power!    s:lol: :lol: s:lol:   The point I was trying to make I suppose is that it seems to me that you will only feel the benefit of the six speed box when you are driving at nine tenths and above.  

Anyway, I have taken the advice and am coming at it from a slightly different angle.  Currently watching a couple of t-sport celicas on ebay.  It will work out fat cheaper that way and at least I'll know if the engines a goodun by the time I've driven it home.

[shnazzle]

Do as much as is within your capabilities to check over and service any engine you decide to put in. There is no other time you can get to it all as easily.
It may seem like extra expense but clutch, chain tensioner, aux belt and tensioner, oil pump, water pump, camcover off and lift bolts, measure tolerances, check for cam wipe (common prob). Pull sump off, measure tolerances and check for slack.
If you can, head off and check bores.
It's all so "easy" with the engine out and it'll never be as "easy" or cheap again.

[JoeCool]

A gearbox is a torque multiplier. Look at the torque profile of a 2zz, it's almost identical to a 1zz (until 6,200 rpm). The net result.of a 2zz spinning a 5 speed gearbox is that at any given rpm, you will be putting the same torque to the road as a 1zz and have no advantage!

Calculate the fact that a 2zz has a 25% rev headline advantage and a 25% shortening of gear ratios makes complete sense: you're putting more torque to the tarmac at every point, because your higher revving, higher performance engine is being geared down more.

Your 8 second to 60 car has just become a 5 second car due to synergy of engine, gearbox and physics.

Do it right, or stick with 1zz.

[shnazzle]

A gearbox is a torque multiplier. Look at the torque profile of a 2zz, it's almost identical to a 1zz (until 6,200 rpm). The net result.of a 2zz spinning a 5 speed gearbox is that at any given rpm, you will be putting the same torque to the road as a 1zz and have no advantage!

Calculate the fact that a 2zz has a 25% rev headline advantage and a 25% shortening of gear ratios makes complete sense: you're putting more torque to the tarmac at every point, because your higher revving, higher performance engine is being geared down more.

Your 8 second to 60 car has just become a 5 second car due to synergy of engine, gearbox and physics.

Do it right, or stick with 1zz.

Beautifully put

[lamcote]

Don't forget it is a 5 speed 'box he has now, not a 6 speed, so it is actually quite low geared already.

On the same tyres the comparative gearing (mph/1000rpm) is as follows:

                                  1     2     3        4      5      6 gears:
1zz 6 speed: 5.6  9.3  13.6  18.4  21.9  24.5 This is not good for a 2zz.

2zz 6 speed 4.9  7.5   10.5   13.3  16.9   19 Obviously ideal but;

1zz 5 speed 5.1  8.5   11.7   15.8   20

1st, 2nd and 3rd are pretty close to the 2zz gears and that gets you all the way from 0mph up to 99mph at 8,500rpm, plus you get a slightly higher top gear too.