2zz Gearbox question

[shnazzle]

It's more the final drive isn't it?

[lamcote]

Yes mainly, although some of the other ratios are lower than the 1zz too.

You could bring the gearing down a bit further if necessary by using PFL wheels and tyres.

[lamcote]

How about using 215/40 16 tyres and getting:

4.96  8.25   11.28   15.24   19.27

That runs to 96mph at 8,500 in 3rd and still provides a slightly higher top gear than the standard 2zz 'box. I doubt you would ever notice any performance difference to the 2zz 'box below 100mph.

Not bad for a free 'box?

[SteveJ]

Don't forget it is a 5 speed 'box he has now, not a 6 speed, so it is actually quite low geared already.

On the same tyres the comparative gearing (mph/1000rpm) is as follows:

                                  1     2     3        4      5      6 gears:
1zz 6 speed: 5.6  9.3  13.6  18.4  21.9  24.5 This is not good for a 2zz.

2zz 6 speed 4.9  7.5   10.5   13.3  16.9   19 Obviously ideal but;

1zz 5 speed 5.1  8.5   11.7   15.8   20

1st, 2nd and 3rd are pretty close to the 2zz gears and that gets you all the way from 0mph up to 99mph at 8,500rpm, plus you get a slightly higher top gear too.

Not sure where you got your numbers from but the U.K. 1ZZ Roadster had the same ratios 1st to 5th in both the 5 & 6 speed boxes. 6th was more of an overdrive.

[lamcote]

You'd better tell them:

 m https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission m

[SteveJ]

You'd better tell them:

 m https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission m

Lol - trusting a WiKi to have accurate data   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[lamcote]

Even if you are right and the ratios are the same, you still get the following with 215/40x16 and 4.312 final drive:

4.96   8.25   11.99   16.2   19.27


3rd now runs to 102mph, possibly better for some?

Which is still pretty great for a free 'box.

[wallzaveerz]

Im on 205/50/15 rears.

[lamcote]

If the UK uses the 3.9 final drive then you will need to swap in the 4.3 final drive to get the benefit.

[wallzaveerz]

I am not looking to build some ultimate track weapon.  I am looking for what I already have to some degree, a nippy great handling sports car for sunny afternoons that won't get blown into the weeds by your average large diesel saloon in a straight line.  A 2zz will in my opinion remove the lottery element of buying a second hand 1zz, sure they might still go wrong but not to the degree the 1zz does.  And an extra 50% poke to boot.

[shnazzle]

I am not looking to build some ultimate track weapon.  I am looking for what I already have to some degree, a nippy great handling sports car for sunny afternoons that won't get blown into the weeds by your average large diesel saloon in a straight line.  A 2zz will in my opinion remove the lottery element of buying a second hand 1zz, sure they might still go wrong but not to the degree the 1zz does.  And an extra 50% poke to boot.

The lottery applies almost just as much mate. Remember that cars with 2zzs will have been absolutely ragged. Lift very obviously kicks in at 6200 so it becomes almost a sport to keep it up there.

Take my 1zz for example. Burns nothing and I am NOT nice to it. And I'm running quite aggressive timing through my emanage.
It's a pretty strong engine.

[Bernie]

I am not looking to build some ultimate track weapon.  I am looking for what I already have to some degree, a nippy great handling sports car for sunny afternoons that won't get blown into the weeds by your average large diesel saloon in a straight line.  A 2zz will in my opinion remove the lottery element of buying a second hand 1zz, sure they might still go wrong but not to the degree the 1zz does.  And an extra 50% poke to boot.

The lottery applies almost just as much mate. Remember that cars with 2zzs will have been absolutely ragged. Lift very obviously kicks in at 6200 so it becomes almost a sport to keep it up there.

Take my 1zz for example. Burns nothing and I am NOT nice to it. And I'm running quite aggressive timing through my emanage.
It's a pretty strong engine.

So true you can't do a 2ZZ swop on the cheap anymore engine will need work not just a straight bung it in

For a road car I'd say low boost turbo is a far better option and you don't have to rag the nuts off it IMO 2ZZ is more a track car option

[Carolyn]

Any used engine, 1ZZ, 2ZZ, Honda, whatever, (unless it's extremely low mileage) is a gamble until it's been opened up and examined.  A fresh 1ZZ is as reliable as any other.  I've rebuilt quite few of these and, while they have their design flaws (oil control mostly), once they are gone through, they are good for many miles and they will take a lot of hard use.  I'm not a fan of the long single row chain or the bucket-shims on the valves, but that's common to both the 1ZZ and 2ZZ.
If you want the 'S 2000' style of high revving power, by all means do go for the 2ZZ.

[smarty72]

I am not looking to build some ultimate track weapon.  I am looking for what I already have to some degree, a nippy great handling sports car for sunny afternoons that won't get blown into the weeds by your average large diesel saloon in a straight line.  A 2zz will in my opinion remove the lottery element of buying a second hand 1zz, sure they might still go wrong but not to the degree the 1zz does.  And an extra 50% poke to boot.

I think this really depends on how you drive for the majority of the time.  If you are happy driving round at 6000rpm and above then yes, you may well experience a 50% increase in power.  But in reality, are you likely to drive around like this for the majority of the time?  If not, then I don't believe you car will feel any more powerful.

I imagine it will be a bit thirstier though.  Have you factored in having to advise your insurance company and any extra premium / hassle that might be involved?

I also think there's a fair bit more to swapping to a 2ZZ than it first seems - ECU swap, the aforementioned gearbox decisions and most donor engines should really be opened up first to check all is good inside - you can't do that until you've bought it and if it isn't a 'good un' that's more time and money that will need to be spent.

A good replacement 1ZZ should be had for around the £450 mark (there was one on here a while ago), then lots of the other issues disappear.  It's cheaper and any savings could be invested in other areas, suspension for instance.

I'm not trying to put you off, just decide if that's what you really want and go in with your eyes wide open.  Good luck either way.

[Carolyn]

All of which returns one to finding out what's wrong with the engine you've got.  If it's not utterly terminal, a rebuild of that one is the most reliable inexpensive option. The work of dropping and replacing the engine goes with all alternatives. Once the engine is out you have nothing to lose by opening it up and finding out what the story is. That way you may not have to buy a used engine (which should be opened up before it goes in anyway...). I suppose it does depend on whether you have the tools/facilities to drop the engine yourself.

[wallzaveerz]

In a complete about turn Im not bothering with the 2zz.  After much debating I am staying with a 1zz,  I am however having a six speed fitted while its out.  So basically the complete mirror opposite of what I originally set out to do.

[smarty72]

In a complete about turn Im not bothering with the 2zz.  After much debating I am staying with a 1zz,  I am however having a six speed fitted while its out.  So basically the complete mirror opposite of what I originally set out to do.

Good look luck with it.

For what it's worth, I think you've made the right decision.

I wouldn't want to drive around on public roads having to hit 6000rpm to get the most out of an engine.

Makes more sense in a track day biased Car.

[wallzaveerz]

Cheers,  I got to thinking about when the last time was that I took it out and really wrung it's neck, and I can't remember.  The 2zz is simply too highly strung for what I use my car for, certainly when you factor in the additional cost and/or mither needed to achieve putting it in there.  Thanks for all the advice guys, it has undoubtedly stopped me making a costly, highly disappointing faux pas.

[Carolyn]

Got there in the end.  Brain in gear!!

I feel much the same.  My 1ZZ gives me all I want for the driving I realistically do.

[JoeCool]

I think you've made the right choice. Also, the world osnt exactly awash with good or cheap 2Zz's right now: I think finding (or rebuilding) a 1zz will prove much easier and cheaper.

[shnazzle]

Another one here for well done on making the right choice  s:) s:)

I've been there. Even got a Celica breaker on the drive to do it. Luckily for me the engine was destroyed haha. That was before I drove a 2zz.
While "lift" is great and yes it is a bit faster in lift, getting there and hearing the engine screaming constantly felt a  bit unnerving.
Under the lift band it didn't feel faster than my moderately modified 1zz.

So I owe the person who's car I drove a big one  s:) s:)
Find someone who will let you drive a 2zz like it should and then you:ll know if it's for you.

As you know, tons of people love it. Tons don't

[Alex Knight]

a secondhand 2zz isn't anymore reliable than a secondhand 1zz there have been quite a few go wrong.

I couldn't agree less, to be honest.

1ZZ isn't a bad, unreliable engine, but it's very well documented that the 2ZZ is leagues above in the reliability stakes.

I'm not saying that you won't find a bad 2ZZ, you will. But I will guarantee that there is a lower %age of 2ZZs that are goosed, compared to 1ZZs.

[smarty72]

a secondhand 2zz isn't anymore reliable than a secondhand 1zz there have been quite a few go wrong.

I couldn't agree less, to be honest.

1ZZ isn't a bad, unreliable engine, but it's very well documented that the 2ZZ is leagues above in the reliability stakes.

I'm not saying that you won't find a bad 2ZZ, you will. But I will guarantee that there is a lower %age of 2ZZs that are goosed, compared to 1ZZs.

Not saying I disagree, but it's a difficult comparison as there are so many more 1ZZ's around in the first place...

[1979scotte]

a secondhand 2zz isn't anymore reliable than a secondhand 1zz there have been quite a few go wrong.

I couldn't agree less, to be honest.

1ZZ isn't a bad, unreliable engine, but it's very well documented that the 2ZZ is leagues above in the reliability stakes.

I'm not saying that you won't find a bad 2ZZ, you will. But I will guarantee that there is a lower %age of 2ZZs that are goosed, compared to 1ZZs.

Most 1zz just have oil control problems.
Very few are completely FUBAR.
2zz are very reliable apart from the ones that aren't.
New Lift bolts anyone?
How many more 1zz are there than 2zz?
I think as a percentage actual blown engines I think both would be similar.

I prefer my 1mz to either. Not that it's any more reliable. They have oil issues too.

[wallzaveerz]

Well its in for open heart surgery as I type so fingers crossed.  It's been such an underpowered dog from day 1, not even convinced it was the correct 140bhp engine to begin with, that I'm hopeful it will feel like night and day anyway.