Hass Stage II turbo is here!

[Anonymous]

I'm presuming the Profec will fix this?

Nope. It's creep, the profec is powerless. Still, 2psi is nothing don't worry about it.

[Anonymous]

I thought the Profec was capable of boosting the pressure at the top end of the scale when power starts to drop off: Is it not capable of doing the reverse too?

I'm not worried about it per se, more curious.

[Anonymous]

It can stop boost dropping off but not creeping up. As you say not worth worrying about aslong as the EM is tuned for the higher psi.

You will find when you are using the profec at a higher psi instead of the wastegate set pressure it will creep less.

[Anonymous]

Ah, fair enough. Another reason to get the Profec in sooner rather than later, then.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:


Cheers for that, Ian.

[Tem]

Ekona, boost creep occurs when the wastegate is already fully open, but it's not big enough and can't flow enough gas through it. That causes the boost to rise (=creep) and obviously no wastegate controller can open it more that fully. You need to port the wastegate if you wanna get rid of it.

[Anonymous]

So would that mean (and please excuse my ignorance on this one!  s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ) that the wastegate is incorrectly sized for the turbo itself? Or is this something that you could reasonably expect to occur with every standard turbo?

[Slacey]

I've never had an issue with boost creep on the Hass setup and I'm not aware of any US based owners having a problem either - how about yours Mark?

[markiii]

no problem that I've noticed

[BenF]

So would that mean (and please excuse my ignorance on this one!  s:oops: :oops: s:oops: ) that the wastegate is incorrectly sized for the turbo itself? Or is this something that you could reasonably expect to occur with every standard turbo?

Hmm, creep is a problem I had with my Mk2 Turbo after fitting a larger hybrid. Basically not enough gas is flowing throgh the wastegate to stop the turbo spining up further and making more boost.

Has yours got a different exhuast on to the other Hass Turbo kits?

[BenF]

BTW, interesting to read about the crankcase breathers - I've actually left mine open to the intake, post intake air filter but before the turbo, as it is setup on the Mk2 Turbo.

Has anyone done any before / after dyno testing to see what the gains are?

Engine Advantages mentioned that I could try an Boat Chandlery as they do one way valves - I may have a go patching one in as a 'test' to see what the difference is.

[BenF]

Seeing as I can now actually use my car, I thought it might be a fun little exercise to get the bloody thing on a dyno and see what she's doing!

I convinced the guys at Engine Advantages to put a temporary boost gauge on as well so I could finally see what boost I'm running at, so the results for my car at 5psi are:

Power = 224bhp@fly
Torque = 172lb/ft

Not bad figures at all for 'only' 5 psi.

Interesting to see the differences between turbo kits though - my PE kit makes 195 ft/lbs at 4800 and 220bhp up at 7k - what you'd expect for a smaller turbo really.

See that sudden drop-off in power just before 2K RPM? That's the bogging sensation I've spoken of earlier, and it's nice to know that it's a real thing and not just me going mad. So that's definately a tuning issue there (bearing in mind the turbo hasn't started spooling by that time), and there was also some mild detonation at extreme RPM's, at least in the 4th gear dyno run.

Interesting - I've noticed if you nail mine at ~2krpms in a tall gear sometimes it can seem to bog down until near 3krpms.

Chatting to Martin about this he said it was something to do with the ECU trying to run closed loop fuel control for emissions - but now I've got my ODB-II code reader I can also check to see if the ECU is trying to run open or closed loop under those conditions and confirm that either way ..

[Anonymous]

Hmm, creep is a problem I had with my Mk2 Turbo after fitting a larger hybrid. Basically not enough gas is flowing throgh the wastegate to stop the turbo spining up further and making more boost.

Has yours got a different exhuast on to the other Hass Turbo kits?

Nope, is the standard one they do. The only difference is that I don't have my second exhaust leg welded on yet, but considering all the piping is 3" I don't think that's gonna make a lot of difference.

[spit]

Interesting - I've noticed if you nail mine at ~2krpms in a tall gear sometimes it can seem to bog down until near 3krpms.

Chatting to Martin about this he said it was something to do with the ECU trying to run closed loop fuel control for emissions - but now I've got my ODB-II code reader I can also check to see if the ECU is trying to run open or closed loop under those conditions and confirm that either way ..

There might be something in Martin's comments.....

Add me to the list of 2K boggers  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:  I've noticed that it is less pronounced after an ECU reset and starts to appear after a few iterations. Wideband is telling me that adjustments to the map are having less impact at 2K, & it looks like the ECU is leaning the mix out in closed loop at these revs. The net effect is a dancing of the AFR as you pass through the 2K rev band.

Another thing I've noticed at the same point is that the vacuum level can start to resonate or flutter ever so slightly. I would imagine that the two issues are related and that they exacerbate each other to cause this bogging hiccough.

Not a good point in the rev band to get this - its bang on the "tootling through traffic" mark. Maybe someone more experienced with EManage can explain what is happening and suggest a fix?

[Anonymous]

Nice to know I'm not alone in this, anyway. You're spot on about 2K being tootling speed Ste, and until I can get the problem nailed down I'm making a consiencious effort to avoid running at that load (sitting in a higher gear than usual is my trick atm).


I've been pondering on this all day, and I've been thinking about a couple of things.

Firstly, is it possible that the wastegate on the turbo isn't opening fully (or working properly), and that's what's causing the boost creep? Just a thought seeing as Mark and Sean don't suffer from it. Also, am I correct in thinking that the detonation at high revs is caused by the boost creep, and the e-Manage not being tuned to handle it (bearing in mind I'm using Sean's Thor map, and he doesn't have this issue)?


On that note, it would appear that I either have to get the wastegate lookled at for functionality, or get the thing mapped properly. Although I'm guessing both, my wallet doesn't really like that idea.  s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[markiii]

I'vebeen thinking about this and it occurs to me;

Sean and I both have teh profec running with teh pressure sensor and our emanages are set to read from teh MAP sensor, yours is set to read from teh MAF as thsi can only be changed with a laptop

and your MAF location changed with tehew design

you need to get your profec installed and working and then get it switched over.,

[Anonymous]

Ah, very true: I forgot that I'm still reading from the MAF.

Looks like the Profec fitting just became that little bit more important. Although that still won't solve my boost creep problem, will it? It'll just mean that I don't get the detonation at the top end.

[aaronjb]

Looks like the Profec fitting just became that little bit more important. Although that still won't solve my boost creep problem, will it? It'll just mean that I don't get the detonation at the top end.

Boost creep at those levels (as long as you have the mapping for it) isn't really much of an issue - it's only a big problem if you're nudging the edge of your injector or map capacity.. Detonation is a much bigger worry for you right now  s;) s;)

You could be right about the wastegate not opening fully though - pop the actuator arm off the wastegate and just check that it moves freely throughout it's range (about 90degrees probably), and make sure that the actuator is able to fully open it (you should be able to put the armback on the wastegate arm and yank on the actuator arm without undue force, to open the wastegate fully)

[Slacey]

Getting the Profec in ASAP is a priority Dan. As Mark said, the map in the Emanage is set to run against MAP readings which you haven't installed yet, and as Mark also mentioned you can make the map read from a MAF but it needs to be changed with the laptop tool. The det is likely to be the MAF issue - the map was tuned to 10psi with no det so as your only creeping to 7psi it shouldn't be an issue at all when the setup is correct. You are only running Optimax, yes? As a short term fix, by a bottle of octane booster and chuck that in, it will help prevent the det.

[Anonymous]

Boost creep can also be caused by a boost leak because the WG actuator will be 'seeing' less boost then is actually present and will stay closed longer. Thats the principle behind MBC's.

Colder weather raises boost levels and with the creep you may also be creeping off the edge of the tune and thats why its detonating.

Lastly, if you've simply changed the scale of a boost referenced tune to make it use MAF volts you must get thee to a  dyno!.

And about me.
No boost creep at 7 or 10psi maintaining WOT for upto 2 minutes.
I have had boost drop due to heatsoak from 10 to 8 tho.
ball & spring MBC.
Standard issue hass - 3" Exhaust, CAT, bulletmuffler, single exit.

We've dyno'd within a day of one another at 7psi with the 'new' MAF setup.

Made 211whp and 178ft/lbs at 7psi with the post-turbo MAF setup.
Ambient 64F 29.96hg 15%Humidity SAE .96

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the info guys, is much appreciated. I am running Optimax/Ultimate, but I guess it won't hurt to chuck a bottle of octane booster in as well (I've got a bottle laying around anyway, might as well use it!).


Just when I thought I was getting somewhere, too!  s:( s:(   s:lol: :lol: s:lol:

[Anonymous]

Quick question: I'm going to mount the Profec 'box' (not the screen) in the rear bins, next to the e-Manage itself. Where is the best place to get power from, and can I use the ground on the ECU wiring harness or should I tap it in somewhere else? Also, what wire in the ECU harness is the RPM one (i.e. which wire do I connect the brown one from the Profec onto)?


Mark, when you extended the lead from the screen to the main unit, did you solder or use crimp fittings?

[markiii]

if yourgoing to do it that way remember what I said about how thin teh screen wires are, they are a real pain.

personally if I were doingit over I'd mount teh box in teh navpod assean did.

that said.

power and ground you can tap from the autosport harness as you did for teh emanage

likewise rpm, which I beleive we labelled

I crimped teh screen connections but only as it's temporary I need to get some slightly longer wire and redo this soldered sometime soon.

[Anonymous]

If I mount the box in the Navpod, won't that mean extending all the pressure sensor harnesses too? Or do they get plugged into the e-Manage itself?

You're right about the labelling for the harness, I forgot we did that...  s:oops: :oops: s:oops:


Sorry for all these questions again, I know we've gone over them before but you know what my mind's like!  s:( s:(   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[markiii]

if you put the box in teh navpod you will have to extend the pressure harness and teh extension pressure harness, however while it's more work the wires are a decent thickness making it easier


oh and Hass number 4 just hit teh road

total install time 19 hours including troubleshooting   s:wink: :wink: s:wink:

[Anonymous]

 s:D s:D  Nice one matey! Any big troubles, or are you going to let Tom report on those?


I think I'll just extend the screen wires, otherwise I have to try and get those silly leads out again and put them back, and I don't fancy doing that much. Also, considering the trouble we had with crimp connectors and my harness, I think I'm going to solder everything this time!  s:wink: :wink: s:wink: