Intermittent Starting Problem

[je72]

Hello Folks!

Well I think it's been a day or two since I quizzed you wonderful lot, so I though perhaps I'd chance my arm if anybody can help me test/diagnose this problem:

Having been starting beautifully every time since I had it, on Friday morning, car took 4 crankings (is that a term?) to get it going, it turned over fine and strong but seemed to stutter out and sometimes would be left with an unhealthy high pitched grinding sound until I stopped turning the key. Did that 3 times, but I could tell it was close to sparking so I turned off and tried again and it sparked. he the ran no problems at all. Started it several times over the weekend hot and cold with no problems. Then today it happened again, 1st cranking it tried to start then spluttered, 2nd cranking tuned over a few times then sparked. I think could smell a whiff of petrol, but maybe that was because i was cranking it for a few seconds each time and even so it was very faint? Drove to shops and it started again lovely so it's one of those intermittent problems.

The only thing I can think is that the previous journeys on both occasions, I had been "spirited driving" the night before (so at least 12 hours before trying to start the car) Although that's not the 1st time I've done that, so probably adding 1 & 1 together and getting 4.

I put the ODBII on it and using Torque (lite) app it's saying faults recorded in the ECU.

Any tips what to try next? Or should I just forget about it as it may never happen again? 

[dan944]

Could you read what faults were recorded?

Not an expert and it's hard by description.
Mechanical grinding noise is the only thing I can pick out. Sometimes when the starter doesn't engage properly you can get horrible grinding. That's "normally" low voltage or old starter motor.

I'd be leaning towards low voltage. Have you got any extras that could be leaching the power when it's off. Aftermarket head unit?
How old/ what condition is the battery?

How lively is the normal start?

[je72]

Could you read what faults were recorded?

Not an expert and it's hard by description.
Mechanical grinding noise is the only thing I can pick out. Sometimes when the starter doesn't engage properly you can get horrible grinding. That's "normally" low voltage or old starter motor.

I'd be leaning towards low voltage. Have you got any extras that could be leaching the power when it's off. Aftermarket head unit?
How old/ what condition is the battery?

How lively is the normal start?

Hi Dan, thanks so much for pitching in 😊

1 - There are no faults as far as I can see, but it's only the 2nd time I've even plugged in a reader.

2 - Yes that was what I was trying to describe. It's the starter motor, it didn't happen each time only once.

3 - No aftermarket electric items.

4 - I think the battery is 5 years old

5 - normal start is lively, and was after each of the incidents.

I'll get a battery tester on it 👍

Thanks again 👍

[dan944]

Could you read what faults were recorded?

Not an expert and it's hard by description.
Mechanical grinding noise is the only thing I can pick out. Sometimes when the starter doesn't engage properly you can get horrible grinding. That's "normally" low voltage or old starter motor.

I'd be leaning towards low voltage. Have you got any extras that could be leaching the power when it's off. Aftermarket head unit?
How old/ what condition is the battery?

How lively is the normal start?

Hi Dan, thanks so much for pitching in [emoji4]

1 - There are no faults as far as I can see, but it's only the 2nd time I've even plugged in a reader.

2 - Yes that was what I was trying to describe. It's the starter motor, it didn't happen each time only once.

3 - No aftermarket electric items.

4 - I think the battery is 5 years old

5 - normal start is lively, and was after each of the incidents.

I'll get a battery tester on it [emoji106]

Thanks again [emoji106]

That's fine. Like I said I'm no expert, just enjoy conundrums and learning the symptoms/diagnosis.

Hmm. If it only happened once maybe it's not as relevant.

When was the last time it had a good service? Thinking spark plugs mainly. Tbh if it's intermittent and is just causing a sloppy start then it's probably a matter of going through the 3 necessities, spark,fuel,air and checking everything you can.

[paulj]

The grinding sounds like starter motor so I would start with the battery, they are relatively small and prone to becoming discharged if old or worn. 

Other advice is also good, spark fuel air.  On that front perhaps give the MAF a clean as the car might be registering the wrong air volume for fuel delivery.

Good luck

[je72]

When was the last time it had a good service? Thinking spark plugs mainly. Tbh if it's intermittent and is just causing a sloppy start then it's probably a matter of going through the 3 necessities, spark,fuel,air and checking everything you can.

It was serviced about 2k miles ago, but I can't tell you much about what was done as I only have the stamp in the book from a non Toyota garage. What has thrown me a little is that I feel that it's cranking well and as I said up until Friday it was a textbook starting, it's only happened twice in the 15 - 20 times I've started it since Friday. I'm going to test the battery tomorrow and see where I go from there

[je72]

The grinding sounds like starter motor so I would start with the battery, they are relatively small and prone to becoming discharged if old or worn. 

Other advice is also good, spark fuel air.  On that front perhaps give the MAF a clean as the car might be registering the wrong air volume for fuel delivery.

Good luck

Cheers @paulj I'll work through those things, but I'm half wondering if it'll be one of those little foibles that only raises it's head occasionally. I hope so anyway!

[dan944]

That's probably the best call. Process of elimination

[Carolyn]

You could also try cleaning the battery terminals and connectors.  Very often the cause of such behaviour.

[je72]

Before I went to check my car this morning, I remembered that my mobile phone didn't seem to be charging very well the last couple of days when I used it with the in car charger. I had put it down to it being an old Galaxy S5 that has serious lag issues, I'd assumed it was running something in the background which was stopping it getting charged, or assumed the car charger might have been faulty. Didn't connect it to the starting problem. Then, we went out in my wifes's car today and tried charging with her charger, the phone charged fine. Could be a coincidence, but now I'm wondering if that could be connected? ( @dan944 you had actually asked if I had any aftermarket items, I'd completely overlooked that as an issue)

So I went to start the car just now with a little trepidation, however he sparked almost instantly (like it has done 99% ish of time I've owned it)

I don't have a battery tester so decided to try to test it with my ODBII bluetooth dongle and Torque (lite) hey presto, I was getting between 13.9v - 14.1v when it was running. Which according to Google seems to be in the accepted range.

@Carolyn The battery terminals do look slightly mucky, so I'm going to give them a little clean.

I also noticed a "tapping" noise from cold and at idle and a very slight kind of "grinding" noise coming from the auxiliary belt area. Grinding is not the most technically accurate descriptions so I recorded it so that you can hear what I mean:

https://youtu.be/TT2x8tiO8tU

Carolyn already diagnosed a knackered auxiliary belt on ding day, so that's on my list to do once I get a breaker bar, but does that all sound normal?

I've also attached a screen grab for the ODBII with various parameters:

[je72]

Hi folks, I had another dodgy start yesterday, car turned over then kind of stopped with a mild "clunk" from engine tried again, same problem, tried for a 3rd time and it sparked and off I went on my merry way. Upon my return I decide to remove battery and clean all terminals also recharged the battery to full (just to be sure) The battery looks pretty rough, it's obviously bubbled over at some point BUT it is holding a charge. Refitted battery, he started fast with maybe the hint of a "clunk"

Today however it will not start, I've got no clunks to speak of and the engine just carries on cranking until I lose my nerve and release the key. I tried 4 times, no spark.

Hooked up the ODBII to it and lo and behold I now have a fault code (it wasn't there when this started happening)

Fault Code: [P0340] Camshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit Bank1 or Single Sensor

I've done a bit of googleing and everything seems to be suggesting replacing the sensor (which I have no idea how to do yet so if that's the solution I'll have to look that up too) but what if the sensor is trying to tell me something else, I'm now feeling very anxious about the clunking    I really hope I haven't hurt him. Is there anything anybody could suggest other than getting it to a garage or getting a mobile mechanic to it?

[Carolyn]

If it's struggling to turn over, there may well not be enough electrical power to do that job and produce sparks. 

You could try jump-starting from another car or device to see what happens.

Sounds to me that your battery is struggling.

I would get the voltage right (new battery, I'm afraid) , clear the codes and then see what the story is.

[je72]

If it's struggling to turn over, there may well not be enough electrical power to do that job and produce sparks. 

You could try jump-starting from another car or device to see what happens.

Sounds to me that your battery is struggling.

I would get the voltage right (new battery, I'm afraid) , clear the codes and then see what the story is.

Thanks for your input Carolyn  :notworthy: I'm not sure if you're replying to my last post or one earlier I *think" the battery is ok it's reading fully charged, car is cranking freely and as I mentioned I now have this new error code "Fault Code: [P0340] Camshaft Position Sensor "A" Circuit Bank1 or Single Sensor" I'm a bit unsure to go down route of battery if I have that fault code. Do you think the battery could be causing the sensor error?

[Carolyn]

It's hard to say.  Cam sensors rarely go wrong.  They do earth to the cylinder head, and if the engine is not earthing well...

My pint about the battery is it might be cranking the engine but running out of puff when it comes to doing more, which is why I suggested a jump-start.  If it fires up on a jump - suspect the battery.  If not, you need to delve further.  The starter motor could also be struggling...

There are a couple of little bundles of earths that bolt to the left-hand end of the cylinder head.  Worth checking and cleaning those.  Also you could take the connector of the cam sensor and check its resistance.  You might have to do a bit of Googling to know what the resistance should be. 

Of all the sensors, it's the easiest one to change. If it's bad. I can send you a good used one.

I take it you've actually pulled the plugs and checked for sparks visually?

It's one of those jobs that just takes a bit of patient, step-by-step elimination.

It's almost impossible to diagnose this from a distance!

Given your limited experience, a decent local mechanic might well be the best bet.

[je72]

It's hard to say.  Cam sensors rarely go wrong.  They do earth to the cylinder head, and if the engine is not earthing well...

My pint about the battery is it might be cranking the engine but running out of puff when it comes to doing more, which is why I suggested a jump-start.  If it fires up on a jump - suspect the battery.  If not, you need to delve further.  The starter motor could also be struggling...

There are a couple of little bundles of earths that bolt to the left-hand end of the cylinder head.  Worth checking and cleaning those.  Also you could take the connector of the cam sensor and check its resistance.  You might have to do a bit of Googling to know what the resistance should be. 

Of all the sensors, it's the easiest one to change. If it's bad. I can send you a good used one.

I take it you've actually pulled the plugs and checked for sparks visually?

It's one of those jobs that just takes a bit of patient, step-by-step elimination.

It's almost impossible to diagnose this from a distance!

Given your limited experience, a decent local mechanic might well be the best bet.

Thanks again @Carolyn especially as I know how un-rewarding it can be guiding a non-techie blindly through the process of troubleshooting issues. You are quite right though, I'm having to learn how to EVERYTHING (enjoying it so far) so best to assume no knowledge. I used to do PC support in large company, I've had my fair share of pandora's box conversations with people when I've been trying to resolve issues. So thanks again for bearing with me.

Update: Well I got him to start, pretty sure it was coincidental, as the fault has been intermittent so far anyway. Here's what I did:

1 - Decided to try to eyeball the Camshaft Sensor as another thread on here said he found his hanging out! I removed carbon canister trying to get an eyeball on the Camshaft sensor, I now realise I was barking up the wrong tree there, but I'm mentioning it just incase it's relevant. Re-attached the canister and she cranked a couple of times and then started!

2- I decided to drive to Halfords so that they could do a proper battery check, the guy hooked up a fancy looking tester and said the battery was good as it was reading 307 only down from 330. However he told me it was the original battery but I'm sure that's incorrect as it's a Lucas Premium LP053 and there's a receipt for it about 5 years ago. I think that rules out battery issue?

3 - I also eyballed the little bundle of wires you referred to in the left hand side of the head, which looked to be clean enough and were securely attached.

4 - Cleared the fault code: P0340

What I plan to do next if I get a recurrence (likely I think) from the various responses I have so far:

1 - Visually inspect the camshaft sensor and test it's resistance, just to rule it out. I think I've found it's location this time via this link https://workshop-manuals.com/toyota/mr2_spyder/l4-1.8l_(1zz-fe)/sensors_and_switches/sensors_and_switches_powertrain_management/sensors_and_switches_computers_and_control_systems/camshaft_position_sensor/component_information/locations/  It looks like it's going to be tricky to get a look at it. Maybe I should have bought that inspection mirror after all!  (:< >

2 - Then check the sparks (I'll be looking for a how to on that)

3 - Check the air filter & clean the MAF (Seen how to's on cleaning the MAF, but I need to find a source to learn about what to look for with air filters)

4 - Fuel pump, I think that'll be one for the garage

I'll update as I go

[Carolyn]

Glad you got it started.  Perhaps a loose hose on the canister??

Who knows.  The camshaft sensor ain't do bad to do.  Tale the plastic cover off and you should be able to get a 10 mm spanner at it - just one little bolt holding it in.  There are two bundles of earths attached to that end of the head.  Pays to unbolt them, give it all a good clean and do them back up.  Don't assume the earth is good by looking at it.

[je72]

Yesterday I managed to check my camshaft sensor (with loads of help from my neighbour) According to material i've read, the resistance between the terminals should be:
Cold 835 - 1.400 Ω (-10°C to 50°C)
Hot 1.060 - 1.645 Ω (50°C to 100°C)

My reading was 1.151 which would appear to be within range for hot or cold. I'd just had to bump start it downhill to get it closer to home, but it had only been on for 1 minutes so pretty sure it should have been a closer to cold reading, that said it was within range for both. My neighbour who has been fettling engines for 30 years seemed to be think it was close to it's parameters, but it looks to be bang on to me.

When we put it all back together it started 1st time, so I thought yay we've fixed it. Alas today it's back to not sparking, I cleared the faults yesterday and the P0340 fault is back again today.

Next (I'm assuming the sensor is ok) is to clean the little bundle of wires earthed near the oil filler cap and check the spark plugs. Does anyone have an idiots guide to checking sparks on a 1zz 1.8 vvti or would a generic youtube guide be acceptable?

[Carolyn]

Disconnect the injectors (or pull their fuse).

Take plastic cover off the top of the engine.  Remove the bolts that hold the coil-packs down.  Loosen the rail that holds the wiring.  Pull the coil-packs clear off their holes.  Take care to put the rubber collars to one side and then put them back.

Remove spark plugs.

Stick one in each coil pack. 

Earth each plug in turn plug to cam cover (hold with insulated pliers). and get someone to crank her over.

You should be able to see a bright blue spark if it's good.  You'll even hear it.

While you're in there, give the old girl some new plugs.

EDIT:  Very systematic approach.  Good work.  You'll get there! 

[je72]

Quick update, I haven't performed any more testing but I started the car this morning, it started (a bit lazily) but then after a few moments it died, that's the 1st time that has happened. I've also noticed the starting problem is getting much worse and more frequent. I'm only mentioning these points in case it makes someone go, aha, that happened to me.

In the meantime I'll still push on with my process of elimination as outlined by the super helpful Carolyn

[Carolyn]

How frustrating.

Tip. immediately before you pull yje plugs, try starting it.  Hopefully it won't start or will struggle and then not start.

I say this 'cos then, when you pull the plugs, you'll see if they're wet or not.  If they're dry, the fuel pump might be messing with you...

If wet and you have spark,.....

we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Don't forget there are TWO earth bundles that bolt to the head.

[K T M Rider]

I decided to drive to Halfords so that they could do a proper battery check, the guy hooked up a fancy looking tester and said the battery was good as it was reading 307 only down from 330. However he told me it was the original battery but I'm sure that's incorrect as it's a Lucas Premium LP053 and there's a receipt for it about 5 years ago. I think that rules out battery issue?

Have to say I admire your approach of trying to be methodical rather than just throwing money at the problem, but nevertheless (rightly or wrongly) I think I would have stuck a new battery on there by now. Many batteries have definitely seen better days by 5 years (in fact I wish the last 3 I've replaced had lasted that long - there again I could have looked after them better) but more to the point I think that even when new your  Lucas LP053 would have been rather marginal.

I take it that the above are CCA readings (I note from ebay that the LP053 is rated at 330CCA).

A quick ebay search for batteries recommended for our car shows that even at the cheapest end (circa £44) they are 350 / 360CCA and the (£66) Yuasa YBX5053 I went for in March is 430CCA so about 40% up on your 5 year old Lucas, which would give you a lot more surplus power for a faster spinning engine / more powerful sparks / overcoming higher resistances due to marginal earths etc.

If you are not yet convinced you want to swap out the battery then as Carolyn suggested, you could always see what it's like on a jump start.

[Essex2Visuvesi]

Might be worth swapping out the the camshaft sensor for a known good one. My Alfa had a similar issue and had the same fault code regarding the sensor.  When checked the sensor seemed within parameters like yours, however when we swapped it out the issue disappeared and did not return

Food for thought?

Bear in mind this was an Alfa Romeo, so normal engineering and physics principles do not always apply lol

[Carolyn]

Might be worth swapping out the the camshaft sensor for a known good one. My Alfa had a similar issue and had the same fault code regarding the sensor.  When checked the sensor seemed within parameters like yours, however when we swapped it out the issue disappeared and did not return

Food for thought?

Bear in mind this was an Alfa Romeo, so normal engineering and physics principles do not always apply lol

Good point.

je72 send me a PM with your address and I'll send one.

[je72]

Have to say I admire your approach of trying to be methodical rather than just throwing money at the problem, but nevertheless (rightly or wrongly) I think I would have stuck a new battery on there by now. Many batteries have definitely seen better days by 5 years (in fact I wish the last 3 I've replaced had lasted that long - there again I could have looked after them better) but more to the point I think that even when new your  Lucas LP053 would have been rather marginal.

I take it that the above are CCA readings (I note from ebay that the LP053 is rated at 330CCA).

A quick ebay search for batteries recommended for our car shows that even at the cheapest end (circa £44) they are 350 / 360CCA and the (£66) Yuasa YBX5053 I went for in March is 430CCA so about 40% up on your 5 year old Lucas, which would give you a lot more surplus power for a faster spinning engine / more powerful sparks / overcoming higher resistances due to marginal earths etc.

If you are not yet convinced you want to swap out the battery then as Carolyn suggested, you could always see what it's like on a jump start.

Hi @K T M Rider thanks for your input. You may well be right about the battery. I'm really inexperienced mechanically speaking and having had a bit of a spendy month last month, I am trying to avoid just chucking money at it and enjoying the steep learning curve that goes with diagnosing these sorts of issues. I think I'll definitely need a new battery before the winter either way as my car isn't garaged and I live at a bit of altitude.

If the known working sensor fix mentioned below doesn't work and the sparks are sparking & wet, I'll get a better battery.

Might be worth swapping out the the camshaft sensor for a known good one. My Alfa had a similar issue and had the same fault code regarding the sensor.  When checked the sensor seemed within parameters like yours, however when we swapped it out the issue disappeared and did not return

Food for thought?

Bear in mind this was an Alfa Romeo, so normal engineering and physics principles do not always apply lol

Thanks for your input too @Essex2Visuvesi I was tempted to try another sensor, after all it is what the ecu is trying to tell me, and the offer of trying a known good one from @Carolyn would seem like a great idea. Isn't this club great!!??

Might be worth swapping out the the camshaft sensor for a known good one. My Alfa had a similar issue and had the same fault code regarding the sensor.  When checked the sensor seemed within parameters like yours, however when we swapped it out the issue disappeared and did not return

Food for thought?

Bear in mind this was an Alfa Romeo, so normal engineering and physics principles do not always apply lol

Good point.
je72 send me a PM with your address and I'll send one.

Will do, let me pay for the post though 

[Essex2Visuvesi]

No problem 
Happy to be of service.... Makes a change to be useful