Intermittent Starting Problem

[je72]

Are you still bringing it here for a loom swap?

Well, that is the million dollar question. I wanted to see what they come up with on Wednesday before I pull the plug on our loom swapping shenanigans, but if they fix it then I won't need to be a burden to you and @jonbill  . This time.

[Carolyn]

I'm concerned that the loom has been damaged (possibly crushed) at some point and there may be more than one fault.

Also, opening up the loom is easy enough.  Tracing the actual fault is another matter.

Let's see how it goes.

(I did say that I bet it starts if you give it a good waggle!!)

[je72]

I'm concerned that the loom has been damaged (possibly crushed) at some point and there may be more than one fault.

Also, opening up the loom is easy enough.  Tracing the actual fault is another matter.

Let's see how it goes.

(I did say that I bet it starts if you give it a good waggle!!)

I do have the same concerns, let's see what they come up with on Wednesday. If they come up with a good explanation as to the erratic nature of the problem and can actually point to the break in the loom or something like that then maybe I'll hold fire. But for £45 (loom) and some scraped knuckles I might still be tempted to pop over.

[Joesson]

@je72, I for one am eagerly waiting for the next instalment in this saga. Any news, or still work in progress?

[je72]

@je72, I for one am eagerly waiting for the next instalment in this saga. Any news, or still work in progress?

Hi @Joesson you and me both!  They didn't call yesterday and I hadn't wanted to call them for the fear of bad news! (silly I know!) But I decided to call them just now. They are pretty sure having spent an hour yesterday and today and having traced the wiring that it may actually be the crank sensor that is at fault. They said it was covered in antifreeze because my water pump had been leaking (anyone remember that from when I had my pre-cats deleted by Mr Twos in Willenhall? We had collectively decided at Ding Day that the water pump was fine and it was nothing to worry about, so  ) anyway they have one on order (crank sensor) along with a water pump and now after having spoken to them a Gates auxiliary belt (I knew that needed dong anyway) So I back to keeping my fingers crossed, and sweating on the bill, because I only really had £300 spare, but that lot sounds to me like we are going to be North of that figure 

Hopefully I'll be asble update later on or tomorrow morning 

[Joesson]

@je72 — I do hope this works out for you.

[je72]

So I don't have her back but the garage are saying it's fixed and is starting perfectly 

Here's the lowdown:

The crank sensor was covered in antifreeze. This was traced back to a leaky water pump, now I know it couldn't have been leaking much as I had been keeping an eye on coolant levels and it's had about 300ml  sorry 200ml in 4 months, all the same if that 200ml had all ended up on the crank sensor I can see why it could cause a problem. When I had me pre-cats removed back in June, the garage I used did suggest that the water pump was leaking so we collectively had a look at it during ding day 2018 and it was decided that there wasn't any problem with the water pump. Maybe (probably) it just got worse. So they changed the crank sensor and the car started perfectly time after time. They changed the water pump and the aux belt for a Gates one for good measure. They also took the cam cover off and checked the timing, they said i was perfect and that usually older cars are all black and gammy inside that area but mine looked like a new engine!  He put that down to the fact it had obviously been well maintained with oil and filter changes. All in including diagnosis, new crank sensor, new water pump, new antifreeze and a new aux belt we are up to just under £400. I actually think that sounds ok for all that lot and to be honest if that is the end of my intermittent fault once and for all, I'll be over the moon.

The only thing that the garage were still a bit befuddled about was why wagging the loom near the earths on the left hand top side of the engine, sometimes seemed to sometimes bring things to life when the fault was the other side underneath. 

[1979scotte]

Strange one but a good result all the same.

[dan944]

That's great news.

My only concern is whilst doing the work they've moved the harness and it's currently in the perfect position.
Have they been out for a drive? Ragged the harness around a bit with it running? It definitely sounded loom related to me.

[je72]

That's great news.

My only concern is whilst doing the work they've moved the harness and it's currently in the perfect position.
Have they been out for a drive? Ragged the harness around a bit with it running? It definitely sounded loom related to me.

SShhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 

[dan944]

That's great news.

My only concern is whilst doing the work they've moved the harness and it's currently in the perfect position.
Have they been out for a drive? Ragged the harness around a bit with it running? It definitely sounded loom related to me.

SShhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 

I know, I'm sorry. All hopes are that it's fine.

But to be truthful. I'd want the comfort that they tried to make it stall again. Or even swapped back to the old sensor to make sure the fault came back.

[je72]

That's great news.

My only concern is whilst doing the work they've moved the harness and it's currently in the perfect position.
Have they been out for a drive? Ragged the harness around a bit with it running? It definitely sounded loom related to me.

SShhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 

I know, I'm sorry. All hopes are that it's fine.

But to be truthful. I'd want the comfort that they tried to make it stall again. Or even swapped back to the old sensor to make sure the fault came back.

They are good considerations. All the info was gleaned from a telephone update. I'll ask them the above points tomorrow before I actually go back to pick up the car. The only problem is that this was intermittent and there's every chance that if they put the old sensor back in it might actually work now it's been fiddled with 😉 but still have been the fault. I think only time will tell.

[jonbill]

That's great news.

My only concern is whilst doing the work they've moved the harness and it's currently in the perfect position.
Have they been out for a drive? Ragged the harness around a bit with it running? It definitely sounded loom related to me.

SShhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh  [emoji14]

I know, I'm sorry. All hopes are that it's fine.

But to be truthful. I'd want the comfort that they tried to make it stall again. Or even swapped back to the old sensor to make sure the fault came back.

That's a good shout. The crank sensor is easy enough  to swap, so if it's the problem you should be able to fix and recreate the problem at will.

[Carolyn]

I can't believe you've paid good money for the totally unnecessary removal of the timing cover.  There was never a timing problem.  Your garage may be doing their best, but they really don't have the diagnostic skills.  They are guessing at your expense.

You still have a problem in the loom.

The crank sensor is a sealed unit.  Lots of us run without nappies under the engine, which means the bottom of the engine can get wet from weather and puddles.  The crank sensor is not affected.

You, and the garage, have the evidence of the effect of waggling the harness, and then choose to ignore it.

My prediction:  The fault will resurface.

Sorry to be so blunt, but It's frustrating to have offered the solution (a lot less than £400) only to be ignored.

[je72]

I can't believe you've paid good money for the totally unnecessary removal of the timing cover.  There was never a timing problem.  Your garage may be doing their best, but they really don't have the diagnostic skills.  They are guessing at your expense.

You still have a problem in the loom.

The crank sensor is a sealed unit.  Lots of us run without nappies under the engine, which means the bottom of the engine can get wet from weather and puddles.  The crank sensor is not affected.

You, and the garage, have the evidence of the effect of waggling the harness, and then choose to ignore it.

My prediction:  The fault will resurface.

Sorry to be so blunt, but It's frustrating to have offered the solution (a lot less than £400) only to be ignored.

Hi Carolyn, sorry you feel that I've ignored your offers of help, I don't feel like that, in fact I feel the opposite. I've been very grateful (and still am) for all the help this amazing bunch of Mr Two aficionados have given me (especially you @Carolyn ) . You know that I don't consider myself very talented with car fettling, I've mentioned that several times along the way. But I've diligently (as far as I can) been doing the stuff that has been suggested by the forum including buying a new battery, cleaning earths, changing the camshaft sensor all of which ultimately didn't resolve the problem. I'm not complaining, I went along with this happily and I understood it was a process of elimination. However there had already been expense in terms of both time and money and my car still had a problem that took the edge off my enjoyment. When I got transported after the last batch of stalls I had been in some pretty unnerving positions on roads that you don't want to stall on. I resolved to allow someone who was an expert to have a look at it as I just wanted it driveable again, hence it went to the garage. I carried on posting for continuity and so that anyone in future who this might help could see all the story.

One thing I stupidly forgot to mention in my last update is that the garage also told me that had opened up the loom and checked most of it for damage apart from the bits they couldn't physically get to. I remember him saying they traced the wiring all the way to the crankshaft sensor. I didn't drill down into that last night with them because there was a fair bit of info being passed over (as above) but I will today. It may be that they have actually conclusively tested the loom  I'll also ask them if they've vigorously waggled the loom AFTER they felt that they'd decided they'd resolved the problem and if they took it for a test drive on a bumpy road (there are plenty of those round here!)

Their diagnosis also makes sense to me (admittedly I'm a non car techie). Right back at the beginning of all this I remember after a google trawl for P0340 error codes (it might have been this one https://www.obd-codes.com/p0340 ) it was suggested that if the camshaft sensor wasn't at fault it could be the crankshaft sensor as they work together. When I was being transported by the recovery truck I tried to pump the recovery driver (who was also a mechanic) for his opinion, he wasn't very forthcoming but he said if it wasn't the camshaft sensor it would probably be the crankshaft sensor! Somehow in my haste to give the garage the history of the intermittent problem (possibly I was determined to blame the loom because of the waggling etc) I never mentioned this. It's possible that all along the loom waggling has been a red herring. Sometimes the car would start after refusing to, just after a little time had passed (that was mentioned somewhere in the saga) without any loom waggling and sometimes it wouldn't start even with extensive loom waggling.

Now add to the fact that another garage (an MR2 specialist) during the removal of my pre-cats advised me that I had a leaky water pump. I was alarmed I raised that to the forum and again I had amazing support (especially considering I was a noob! ) it was agreed we'd collectively take a look at ding day, we did so,  and it was decided at that point there wasn't a problem with the water pump. Fast forward 3 months and another garage has said I had a leaky water pump. Now could it be that it had worsened significantly in that time or could it be that we misdiagnosed it? My regular garage said the crankshaft sensor was "drenched" in antifreeze. As far as I know, antifreeze is corrosive and not a solution you want to have sitting on an engine component for a very long time, so it kind of figures. They changed the crankshaft sensor and it fired every time repeatedly.

I don't really know what else to say apart from thanks very much for the help, I will let you know how it pans out. Maybe I actually had/have TWO problems! Time will tell.

[Carolyn]

Your engine is full of anti-freeze.  It is a corrosion inhibitor.

As for the valve timing:
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=65009.0

I tried.

[je72]

Just got off the phone to the garage, probably should have done this before my last long post. I bought up the reservations.

They have checked the WHOLE WIRING LOOM, they had it all off the car and said it's all good.

They checked the crankshaft sensor for continuity, once it was removed from the car, it was faulty.

I'm back to them being pissed off with me because I questioned them.

Happy days!

[wotugonado]

Wow Carolyn you gave je72  both barrels  :-)

Je72 give the mechanics a few beer tokens, they'll soon forgive you. Also hope it's all sorted now for your sake, otherwise Carolyn will be hanging you with that loom 

[Joesson]

@je72 said:
"I'm back to them being pissed off with me because I questioned them."

As you say Je this garage has been in business for some time, they will have had many customers, all with different problems and concerns. On this occassion they have been working on an unfamiliar vehicle with what is undeniably, from the collective experience on here, an unusual problem- intermittent starting.
I recall they admitted their bafflement.*
You have offered advice gleaned from this forum. I suggest that those comments caused them to look outside of the box( as the expression goes).
They really should not give the impression that they are "pissed off" with you.
You are the Customer, you and others are what they rely on for what they will be asking from you.
*Addendum-
1: At one time they "thought the timing chain had stretched" and that would be £600! Until you/ we told them that was not the case.
2: The Auto Electrician, employed by the Garage, advised that he"could not fault the wiring" whereas my understanding is that the Crank Shaft position sensor is an electronic device. One might assume that any test of "the wiring" would include essential components connected to the wiring circuit.

[je72]

@je72 said:
"I'm back to them being pissed off with me because I questioned them."

As you say Je this garage has been in business for some time, they will have had many customers, all with different problems and concerns. On this occassion they have been working on an unfamiliar vehicle with what is undeniably, from the collective experience on here, an unusual problem- intermittent starting.
I recall they admitted their bafflement.*
You have offered advice gleaned from this forum. I suggest that those comments caused them to look outside of the box( as the expression goes).
They really should not give the impression that they are "pissed off" with you.
You are the Customer, you and others are what they rely on for what they will be asking from you.
*Addendum-
1: At one time they "thought the timing chain had stretched" and that would be £600! Until you/ we told them that was not the case.
2: The Auto Electrician, employed by the Garage, advised that he"could not fault the wiring" whereas my understanding is that the Crank Shaft position sensor is an electronic device. One might assume that any test of "the wiring" would include essential components connected to the wiring circuit.

Everything you've said there is true @Joesson When I went to see them to pick the car up it was all back to happy families.

I'm not sure why they decided to take the cam cover off, it's not the course of action we had agreed. However I know they didn't charge me for all the time they spent on it.

What's almost comical is that the driver of the recovery truck said during the drive "if it's not the Camshaft sensor it'll be the crank sensor because they work together" Maybe I should go to him in future! 

Ultimately the car seems to be starting and running lovely now

I think things got fractious because of the frustrating nature of a fault like this.

I'm most disappointed by the fact that @Carolyn become frustrated too, I was and am very grateful for all her help. As @wotugonado says let's hope she doesn't have an excuse to throttle me with my loom in the future! 

[Joesson]

@je72  , I do hope that this is the end of this particular story and that everybody involved will be happy ever after.

[wotugonado]

@je72  , I do hope that this is the end of this particular story and that everybody involved will be happy ever after.

If not, then I know someone who has a loom.......you'll need to be a braver man than I though 

[mrzwei]

Interesting thread as I've had my share of crank / cam sensor problems. A faulty cam sensor will usually throw a code but a crank sensor may not because the ecu can't recognize that the engine is turning over unless it is working so won't fuel or spark the engine.

I'd get the mobile number of the recovery mechanic 
Glad you got it sorted.

[Carolyn]

I'm glad that it seems to be sorted.  Fingers crossed.