Intermittent Starting Problem

[je72]

No spark, no fuel.

Immobiliser, or ECU. 

Any  other opinions, folks?

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE.

I'm sitting in the car she's running perfectly!  I just came up to see if any other fault codes had been flushed through (still have the p0340 at the moment) and I thought I'll try her again, it's been several hours since I last tried.

She cranked and sparked blooming well instantly! Drove up the street, turned round. Turned her off, held my breath, turned hey back on, cranked and sparked instantly!

Could it have been the bloody battery after all? Maybe she needed a little time after I fitted the battery to compose herself with all this extra juice?

I'm flummoxed. So let's hope this is it.  :notworthy:

[Carolyn]

Sorry to say, I don't think so. 

That's intermittent faults for you.

Did you find the second bundle of earths on the head? 

[je72]

Sorry to say, I don't think so. 

That's intermittent faults for you.

Did you find the second bundle of earths on the head?

Well I think so, are they underneath a rather awkward bracket below the easy to find bundle on the upper left side of the head? If I'm honest, I'm getting a bit worried about touching her now. I think when funds allow I should get to a competent mechanic and allow them to check her out. I feel like I'm not helping.

Maybe I just need to have a day not messing about with her and I'll replenish my sense of maintenance adventure :-)

[Call the midlife!]

Sorry to say, I don't think so. 

That's intermittent faults for you.

Did you find the second bundle of earths on the head?

Well I think so, are they underneath a rather awkward bracket below the easy to find bundle on the upper left side of the head? If I'm honest, I'm getting a bit worried about touching her now. I think when funds allow I should get to a competent mechanic and allow them to check her out. I feel like I'm not helping.

Maybe I just need to have a day not messing about with her and I'll replenish my sense of maintenance adventure :-)

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but disconnecting the battery for a while resets the ECU so then when you start the car again it has a period of learning, which is probably why the codes are disappearing and reappearing etc.


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[jonbill]

I suppose you wouldn't expect sparks if it can't detect the cam position. If it's not the cam sensor or the battery then next is the wiring to the sensor. How does the wiring look? Anything look squished?

[Ardent]

Not particulary helpful, but a shame you are not closer to Loughborough.
One of our affilates, Steve at D1 Customs. This is "his thing" diagnostic wizard.
Fault finding, he loves it, and excels at it

[je72]

Sorry to say, I don't think so. 

That's intermittent faults for you.

Did you find the second bundle of earths on the head?

Well I think so, are they underneath a rather awkward bracket below the easy to find bundle on the upper left side of the head? If I'm honest, I'm getting a bit worried about touching her now. I think when funds allow I should get to a competent mechanic and allow them to check her out. I feel like I'm not helping.

Maybe I just need to have a day not messing about with her and I'll replenish my sense of maintenance adventure :-)

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but disconnecting the battery for a while resets the ECU so then when you start the car again it has a period of learning, which is probably why the codes are disappearing and reappearing etc.

This is actually something I was aware of, a little chink of knowledge in a huge void of cluelessness

[je72]

I suppose you wouldn't expect sparks if it can't detect the cam position. If it's not the cam sensor or the battery then next is the wiring to the sensor. How does the wiring look? Anything look squished?

Cheers for pitching in

That was my thinking, after I did a bit of googling following changing the sensor. The wiring looks ... complicated to me, I can't see most of it as the wiring for the camshaft sensor runs between the engine and the firewall. I have no idea how to thoroughly check it myself. This is why I'm wondering about getting it to someone who does.

I've had fantastic support on here and I think I am capable of building my skills in the long run, but at this stage I'm part of the problem 

[je72]

Not particulary helpful, but a shame you are not closer to Loughborough.
One of our affilates, Steve at D1 Customs. This is "his thing" diagnostic wizard.
Fault finding, he loves it, and excels at it

What are the house prices like in Loughborough?

Maybe we should start a MR2 community somewhere in the East Midlands  :-)

[je72]

Well she's back to crank but no start this morning 

It's such a pain though because I can't get her to a garage when she won't start and of course if I book a mobile mechanic to come she'll probably start 1st time when they throw the key. I've also lost faith in my own troubleshooting skills, the help from you guys is awesome, my worry is that I could be missing vital things and testing things inconclusively. Then when I feed back to you all it just gets us further away from the solution.

One thing that's been bothering me, could this have anything to do with the de-cat? I never had any problems starting before I had that done and the problem didn't start immediately after the work was completed, but it was within a week or so. I know it's probably just a coincidence but thought I'd ask.

[Call the midlife!]

Well she's back to crank but no start this morning 

It's such a pain though because I can't get her to a garage when she won't start and of course if I book a mobile mechanic to come she'll probably start 1st time when they throw the key. I've also lost faith in my own troubleshooting skills, the help from you guys is awesome, my worry is that I could be missing vital things and testing things inconclusively. Then when I feed back to you all it just gets us further away from the solution.

One thing that's been bothering me, could this have anything to do with the de-cat? I never had any problems starting before I had that done and the problem didn't start immediately after the work was completed, but it was within a week or so. I know it's probably just a coincidence but thought I'd ask.

Other than disconnecting the battery as a precaution before removing the O2 sensors, removing/replacing the manifold shouldn't disturb anything else electrical.
A mobile mechanic would be able to check the timing though, regardless of if it fired first time and  as it's an intermittent fault it wouldn't matter if it did start.
The mechanic would still be able to work through all the usual suspects and hopefully pinpoint the fault, might cost a few quid but at the moment the car is virtually worthless to you in this glorious weather...


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[jonbill]

Personally I wouldn't think decatting would have anything to do with it.
I'd have a go at wiggling the wiring to the cam sensor when it won't start to see if that makes a difference.

[je72]

Other than disconnecting the battery as a precaution before removing the O2 sensors, removing/replacing the manifold shouldn't disturb anything else electrical.
A mobile mechanic would be able to check the timing though, regardless of if it fired first time and  as it's an intermittent fault it wouldn't matter if it did start.
The mechanic would still be able to work through all the usual suspects and hopefully pinpoint the fault, might cost a few quid but at the moment the car is virtually worthless to you in this glorious weather...

I was thinking that it probably wasn't the de-cat, but it's fair to say I've "lived" this problem for the last 2 or 3 days. I'd even considered which way I parked the car on the gradient in my street

Just need to source myself a decent local mechanic now. I might try the facebook group to see if anyone on there can recommend anyone. You're right though I've been absolutely gutted that I can't just hop in for a drive lately.

[je72]

Personally I wouldn't think decatting would have anything to do with it.
I'd have a go at wiggling the wiring to the cam sensor when it won't start to see if that makes a difference.

Yeah, just me adding 2+2 and getting 7.

I'll wiggle my wires, though knowing my luck they'll probably snap off in my hand

[Carolyn]

A poor earth will give intermittent problems.  Injectors, sparks and cam sensor all earth to the head.

[je72]

A poor earth will give intermittent problems.  Injectors, sparks and cam sensor all earth to the head.

You are SO patient Carolyn, I feel that I've failed you you've tried so hard to help me. I'm going to see if I can clean BOTH bundles of earths as you've mentioned. I'm planning to loosen/remove them, then go at everything that touches together with a wire brush. Is there anything else I should do? Copper grease maybe?

[Carolyn]

Hey, patience is what it takes with problems like this.  Keep plugging!! 

Edit:  A poor engine earth might also cause your problems.  You'll be having the intake off, I should think, so check the one bolted to the top of the gearbox and also check the one that goes from the head to the chassis above the right hand side of the engine.  Check and clean them all.  The big current of starting might over come, but smaller currents might struggle.
Wire brush and maybe sandpaper or a small flat file.  Get it all clean and shiny.  That should suffice.

[K T M Rider]

A poor earth will give intermittent problems.  Injectors, sparks and cam sensor all earth to the head.

You are SO patient Carolyn, I feel that I've failed you you've tried so hard to help me. I'm going to see if I can clean BOTH bundles of earths as you've mentioned. I'm planning to loosen/remove them, then go at everything that touches together with a wire brush. Is there anything else I should do? Copper grease maybe?

blasting everything electrical with some of this probably wouldn't hurt

https://www.wd40specialist.com/products/contact-cleaner/

(or for a budget option I'd have probably emptied a can of Morrison's maintenance spray over the engine bay by now)

[je72]

Whisper this quietly, but after another no start this morning, I *think" I may have identified the problem. Sorry it's a long post, I think it's important to identify where I went wrong. I've tried to make it entertaining. Tried.

You may recall prior to fitting the new battery I tried in my hamfisted way to check the spark plugs, and that I had managed to burr/thread (whatever you call it) the bolt and nut that fasten down the left hand side of the plastic coil pack wiring housing.

I've also managed to thread this stud/both that holds the plastic coil pack wiring cover in place on the far left:
https://imgur.com/a/9PR458n

What I fell short of explaining is that as I couldn't get the bolt back on I left it off and decided to go back to it another day  :withstupid: and move on to resolving the more pressing issue of getting a new battery! I was just desperate to have Ozzy back and firing on all cylinders!

Toddled off to Halfords in a borrow car, fitted said battery and that *probably* resolved my original issue somewhere? But I wouldn't have known because I'd created another problem. The fact that I got her started at all was a complete fluke as I had probably brushed or nudged the new problem I found this morning.....

Reinvigorated by some sleep and advice from you guys, I went to have another look at everything this morning.

1st I noticed that the grey connector that plugs into a receptacle on a bracket that is also fastened down by that burred bolt was not "clicked in", I duly clicked it in, with very satisfying click, EUREKA I thunk! I flipped the key and she started, brightly! Whilst I was staring wondrously at the results of my troubleshooting prowess, considering a new career in engine diagnostics and hoping all the neighbours were watching this man machine in action, the engine died again. She wouldn't restart.

But aah, I'd had the sniff of success, I somehow realised that the nut I had left off was causing everything to be loose on that corner (maybe the connector had worked loose with the vibration too) Then I noticed that it was also an earthing point due to the metal inside the plastic bracket where the missing nut went! See video (I've added clown music because, well clown!)

https://youtu.be/MKUTI8BEbRs

I fiddled (I wouldn't call it fettling, I'm no where near qualified to be a fettler yet) with the plastic casing pushed it down and tried again, she started, but died again. I need something to pack that down until I can fix the nut and bolt properly I thought, so I pushed it down again and packed it out with a bit of cardboard to try to keep the plastic bit still, just to test:



Tried the key, well chuck me in a pot with an onion and a tin of tomatoes, simmer me gently for four hours and call me a ragu, because she started brightly and this time she didn't die. I tested her over and over and same result, I think I may have actually resolved the starting issue, time will tell.

Now can anyone help me how to fix the nut and bolt problem I created so that this becomes a permanent fix? I think I need to know the sizes of the threads etc and then get some kind if funny looking bolt thingy, with which I will probably wreck my engine forever!

[Call the midlife!]

Whisper this quietly, but after another no start this morning, I *think" I may have identified the problem. Sorry it's a long post, I think it's important to identify where I went wrong. I've tried to make it entertaining. Tried.

You may recall prior to fitting the new battery I tried in my hamfisted way to check the spark plugs, and that I had managed to burr/thread (whatever you call it) the bolt and nut that fasten down the left hand side of the plastic coil pack wiring housing.

I've also managed to thread this stud/both that holds the plastic coil pack wiring cover in place on the far left:
https://imgur.com/a/9PR458n

What I fell short of explaining is that as I couldn't get the bolt back on I left it off and decided to go back to it another day  :withstupid: and move on to resolving the more pressing issue of getting a new battery! I was just desperate to have Ozzy back and firing on all cylinders!

Toddled off to Halfords in a borrow car, fitted said battery and that *probably* resolved my original issue somewhere? But I wouldn't have known because I'd created another problem. The fact that I got her started at all was a complete fluke as I had probably brushed or nudged the new problem I found this morning.....

Reinvigorated by some sleep and advice from you guys, I went to have another look at everything this morning.

1st I noticed that the grey connector that plugs into a receptacle on a bracket that is also fastened down by that burred bolt was not "clicked in", I duly clicked it in, with very satisfying click, EUREKA I thunk! I flipped the key and she started, brightly! Whilst I was staring wondrously at the results of my troubleshooting prowess, considering a new career in engine diagnostics and hoping all the neighbours were watching this man machine in action, the engine died again. She wouldn't restart.

But aah, I'd had the sniff of success, I somehow realised that the nut I had left off was causing everything to be loose on that corner (maybe the connector had worked loose with the vibration too) Then I noticed that it was also an earthing point due to the metal inside the plastic bracket where the missing nut went! See video (I've added clown music because, well clown!)

https://youtu.be/MKUTI8BEbRs

I fiddled (I wouldn't call it fettling, I'm no where near qualified to be a fettler yet) with the plastic casing pushed it down and tried again, she started, but died again. I need something to pack that down until I can fix the nut and bolt properly I thought, so I pushed it down again and packed it out with a bit of cardboard to try to keep the plastic bit still, just to test:



Tried the key, well chuck me in a pot with an onion and a tin of tomatoes, simmer me gently for four hours and call me a ragu, because she started brightly and this time she didn't die. I tested her over and over and same result, I think I may have actually resolved the starting issue, time will tell.

Now can anyone help me how to fix the nut and bolt problem I created so that this becomes a permanent fix? I think I need to know the sizes of the threads etc and then get some kind if funny looking bolt thingy, with which I will probably wreck my engine forever!

It'll be tricky but you need to run a die down it to try and recut/clean the threads and then try a nyloc nut and washer on it in the hope it cuts the nut tight enough to stay put.


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[Call the midlife!]

Whisper this quietly, but after another no start this morning, I *think" I may have identified the problem. Sorry it's a long post, I think it's important to identify where I went wrong. I've tried to make it entertaining. Tried.

You may recall prior to fitting the new battery I tried in my hamfisted way to check the spark plugs, and that I had managed to burr/thread (whatever you call it) the bolt and nut that fasten down the left hand side of the plastic coil pack wiring housing.

I've also managed to thread this stud/both that holds the plastic coil pack wiring cover in place on the far left:
https://imgur.com/a/9PR458n

What I fell short of explaining is that as I couldn't get the bolt back on I left it off and decided to go back to it another day  :withstupid: and move on to resolving the more pressing issue of getting a new battery! I was just desperate to have Ozzy back and firing on all cylinders!

Toddled off to Halfords in a borrow car, fitted said battery and that *probably* resolved my original issue somewhere? But I wouldn't have known because I'd created another problem. The fact that I got her started at all was a complete fluke as I had probably brushed or nudged the new problem I found this morning.....

Reinvigorated by some sleep and advice from you guys, I went to have another look at everything this morning.

1st I noticed that the grey connector that plugs into a receptacle on a bracket that is also fastened down by that burred bolt was not "clicked in", I duly clicked it in, with very satisfying click, EUREKA I thunk! I flipped the key and she started, brightly! Whilst I was staring wondrously at the results of my troubleshooting prowess, considering a new career in engine diagnostics and hoping all the neighbours were watching this man machine in action, the engine died again. She wouldn't restart.

But aah, I'd had the sniff of success, I somehow realised that the nut I had left off was causing everything to be loose on that corner (maybe the connector had worked loose with the vibration too) Then I noticed that it was also an earthing point due to the metal inside the plastic bracket where the missing nut went! See video (I've added clown music because, well clown!)

https://youtu.be/MKUTI8BEbRs

I fiddled (I wouldn't call it fettling, I'm no where near qualified to be a fettler yet) with the plastic casing pushed it down and tried again, she started, but died again. I need something to pack that down until I can fix the nut and bolt properly I thought, so I pushed it down again and packed it out with a bit of cardboard to try to keep the plastic bit still, just to test:



Tried the key, well chuck me in a pot with an onion and a tin of tomatoes, simmer me gently for four hours and call me a ragu, because she started brightly and this time she didn't die. I tested her over and over and same result, I think I may have actually resolved the starting issue, time will tell.

Now can anyone help me how to fix the nut and bolt problem I created so that this becomes a permanent fix? I think I need to know the sizes of the threads etc and then get some kind if funny looking bolt thingy, with which I will probably wreck my engine forever!

It'll be tricky but you need to run a die down it to try and recut/clean the threads and then try a nyloc nut and washer on it in the hope it cuts the nut tight enough to stay put.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But well done on hopefully getting to the bottom of it and proving some Saturday morning light entertainment![emoji23]


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[Carolyn]

Whisper this quietly, but after another no start this morning, I *think" I may have identified the problem. Sorry it's a long post, I think it's important to identify where I went wrong. I've tried to make it entertaining. Tried.

You may recall prior to fitting the new battery I tried in my hamfisted way to check the spark plugs, and that I had managed to burr/thread (whatever you call it) the bolt and nut that fasten down the left hand side of the plastic coil pack wiring housing.

I've also managed to thread this stud/both that holds the plastic coil pack wiring cover in place on the far left:
https://imgur.com/a/9PR458n

What I fell short of explaining is that as I couldn't get the bolt back on I left it off and decided to go back to it another day  :withstupid: and move on to resolving the more pressing issue of getting a new battery! I was just desperate to have Ozzy back and firing on all cylinders!

Toddled off to Halfords in a borrow car, fitted said battery and that *probably* resolved my original issue somewhere? But I wouldn't have known because I'd created another problem. The fact that I got her started at all was a complete fluke as I had probably brushed or nudged the new problem I found this morning.....

Reinvigorated by some sleep and advice from you guys, I went to have another look at everything this morning.

1st I noticed that the grey connector that plugs into a receptacle on a bracket that is also fastened down by that burred bolt was not "clicked in", I duly clicked it in, with very satisfying click, EUREKA I thunk! I flipped the key and she started, brightly! Whilst I was staring wondrously at the results of my troubleshooting prowess, considering a new career in engine diagnostics and hoping all the neighbours were watching this man machine in action, the engine died again. She wouldn't restart.

But aah, I'd had the sniff of success, I somehow realised that the nut I had left off was causing everything to be loose on that corner (maybe the connector had worked loose with the vibration too) Then I noticed that it was also an earthing point due to the metal inside the plastic bracket where the missing nut went! See video (I've added clown music because, well clown!)

https://youtu.be/MKUTI8BEbRs

I fiddled (I wouldn't call it fettling, I'm no where near qualified to be a fettler yet) with the plastic casing pushed it down and tried again, she started, but died again. I need something to pack that down until I can fix the nut and bolt properly I thought, so I pushed it down again and packed it out with a bit of cardboard to try to keep the plastic bit still, just to test:



Tried the key, well chuck me in a pot with an onion and a tin of tomatoes, simmer me gently for four hours and call me a ragu, because she started brightly and this time she didn't die. I tested her over and over and same result, I think I may have actually resolved the starting issue, time will tell.

Now can anyone help me how to fix the nut and bolt problem I created so that this becomes a permanent fix? I think I need to know the sizes of the threads etc and then get some kind if funny looking bolt thingy, with which I will probably wreck my engine forever!

It'll be tricky but you need to run a die down it to try and recut/clean the threads and then try a nyloc nut and washer on it in the hope it cuts the nut tight enough to stay put.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But well done on hopefully getting to the bottom of it and proving some Saturday morning light entertainment![emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Get that stud out with some vice grips.  You can replace with a short M6 bolt or I can send you a new stud.

Steal a short M6 (10 mmm head) from somewhere less vital for now.  I'll send a new stud.

In the meantime. STILL go through all those earths!!

[spit]

Hey Jade. Good to see you making forward progress.

If its any consolation I'm working through very similar oddities with Dad's old car. Just when I think I'm close to nailing it, it throws another tantrum  (:< > Keep at it - you'll figure it out and learn a hell of a lot of useful stuff along the way.

The floppy block that you're parading is your electrical choke. I wouldn't expect it to cause you these problems as I've seen them dangling free with a broken bracket in otherwise OK '2s..... but I could well be wrong if its bouncing around and making intermittent contact.

If you don't want to replace that stud just yet, get the choke bracket clamped down somewhere nearby - there are plenty of other 10mm bolts on that side of the engine that you can fasten it down with. (edit - exactly what Carolyn said. D'oh, she's too fast for me!). During rebuilds many folk forget where its supposed to go and just tighten it down with the nearest available bolt. I've done it myself in the past. Carolyn does it properly

(I wrote the following while you were beavering away...... but I'll leave it here just in case)

The only nugget I can throw in aside from the excellent advice that C and others have offered (and you've inspired us with along the way) would be the Crank sensor lead and earth. Its a delicate sensor in a crud-filled location..... and conveniently close to where things were being prodded around during your water pump pulley excitement.

Its not an absolute diagnosis..... just something else to throw into the pot if problems persist. I've experienced poor and intermittent starting issues with funky crank sensors in the past..... more often than not down to the wiring rather than the sensor itself. The crank earth connection on the '2 doesn't have to be spotless but it can easily get corroded.

Nic's old '2 had a grubby crank earth. While it was OK with the standard ECU it wouldn't run on the Apexi ECU until the earth had been cleaned up. It would just crank with no spark or fuel.

Hope I'm not muddying the waters with this - but add it to your list if the choke clamp fix doesn't do the business.

[Carolyn]

I would just add that every time you do a bit of juggling in that area, you seem to get a temporary result.  That suggests to me that you're inadvertently also waggling a loose earth.

I've noticed you are tending to keep going for a single solution.  Don't. Do all the earths.  All of them.  Crank sensor earth is doable from underneath.  it's on the timing cover, low down towards the front of the car.

Stud on the way.

[je72]

I would just add that every time you do a bit of juggling in that area, you seem to get a temporary result.  That suggests to me that you're inadvertently also waggling a loose earth.

I've noticed you are tending to keep going for a single solution.  Don't. Do all the earths.  All of them.  Crank sensor earth is doable from underneath.  it's on the timing cover, low down towards the front of the car.

Stud on the way.

1st the good news, she started all day yesterday AND today after I fitted the cardboard wedge electric choke mod 

You're right, I have been stopping once I got her going, but fear not, I fully plan on cleaning every earth that I can get my hands on, I'd just rather be doing it in a nicer less stressed frame of mind whilst also being able to use her as a car 

With regards to you sending me a replacement stud, that's so so kind of you AGAIN!  Thank you :notworthy: I just need to pluck up the courage to go at removing the threaded stud 

Hey Jade. Good to see you making forward progress.

If its any consolation I'm working through very similar oddities with Dad's old car. Just when I think I'm close to nailing it, it throws another tantrum  (:< > Keep at it - you'll figure it out and learn a hell of a lot of useful stuff along the way.

The floppy block that you're parading is your electrical choke. I wouldn't expect it to cause you these problems as I've seen them dangling free with a broken bracket in otherwise OK '2s..... but I could well be wrong if its bouncing around and making intermittent contact.

If you don't want to replace that stud just yet, get the choke bracket clamped down somewhere nearby - there are plenty of other 10mm bolts on that side of the engine that you can fasten it down with. (edit - exactly what Carolyn said. D'oh, she's too fast for me!). During rebuilds many folk forget where its supposed to go and just tighten it down with the nearest available bolt. I've done it myself in the past. Carolyn does it properly

(I wrote the following while you were beavering away...... but I'll leave it here just in case)

The only nugget I can throw in aside from the excellent advice that C and others have offered (and you've inspired us with along the way) would be the Crank sensor lead and earth. Its a delicate sensor in a crud-filled location..... and conveniently close to where things were being prodded around during your water pump pulley excitement.

Its not an absolute diagnosis..... just something else to throw into the pot if problems persist. I've experienced poor and intermittent starting issues with funky crank sensors in the past..... more often than not down to the wiring rather than the sensor itself. The crank earth connection on the '2 doesn't have to be spotless but it can easily get corroded.

Nic's old '2 had a grubby crank earth. While it was OK with the standard ECU it wouldn't run on the Apexi ECU until the earth had been cleaned up. It would just crank with no spark or fuel.

Hope I'm not muddying the waters with this - but add it to your list if the choke clamp fix doesn't do the business.

Hey @spit nice to hear from you and thanks very much for those helpful nuggets.  The electric choke (another bit I've learned) was indeed flapping around loosely, but as mentioned above my cardboard wedge mod is actually working well and I've had no problems starting since I "installed" it Once I get the stud from C, I'll get that fixed permanently and then start working through the earths

Good luck with your dads car (need a thumbs up emoji)