2zz or turbo?

[1979scotte]

I've had a shed load of cars over the years from Jaguar XK8 to STI impezas, I'm just looking for something with a bit of punch to get the juices flowing! Lol I had to ditch all my 'enjoyable' cars when the kids arrived and so my weekend mr2 is my little bit of pleasure! I would have loved to have gone to Ding Day but I'm a 24/7 dad and it's hard to get any time. That's kind of why I was looking at just buying a turbo kit and getting the local tuning garage to fit it as I just don't have the hours in the day to shop and try and install.

You'll enjoy a turbo and if you don't it's easy to remove and sell.
Same can't be said of an engine swap.

[shnazzle]

If you can do the shop based on Dan's list and take it to get installed, you can get the best of both worlds with minimal effort.
The kits generally just aren't very good. Or rather, not complete. The only benefit is you tend to get a bit of discount based on the fact that they likely stock a lot of the kit elements.

But, regardless, the majority of the cost is in the engine management solution. It's the key to success for a turbo/supercharger.
A 2zz with stg1 cams will just run off the stock celica ecu. Saves a lot of cash.

Mike's build is rather tasty but it is the cream of the 2zz crop; best manifold, best gearbox, lightened flywheel, high flow exhaust, Stg2 cams, and soon to have a standalone ecu.
It's a great showcase for what a 2zz N/A can be, but not really a fair benchmark

[michaelb]

How much would all Mike's 2zz work come in at? And how much power would it be putting out? I've heard the 2zz only really comes alive at the top end?

[dan944]

DIY Turbo component sourcing thread!
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=15578&share_tid=60702&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emr2roc%2Eorg%2Fforum%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D60702&share_type=t

Here's what if said I'd show you. Obviously you have to consider Engine management.

I've not been in mikes 2zzyet but heard it and it's lovely. And. EASILY keeps up with mine at the moment.
What do you want? I get turbo chatter at city driving levels. The 2zz probably won't be noticeable At those conditions without a lightened flywheel.  They are very different.

[mikek]

How much would all Mike's 2zz work come in at? And how much power would it be putting out? I've heard the 2zz only really comes alive at the top end?

Too much!!

Cams £700 + fitting
Lightened flywheel £250 + fitting
Custom maf pipe and bmc cda £300
Exhaust and manifold £700
Mr2 lsd and 6th gear swap £350 + celica box.
Standalone £1200

Then you need a good 2zz engine and someone to convert it

Really didn't want to add that lot up! (:< >

[BahnStormer]

From everything I can work out and summary of lots of other opinion: it all depends on what you want it for and how you want to drive it - if you're tracking it and/or willing to keep it between 6000rpm and 8000rpm, then a 2ZZ is a great option and the most straight forward engine swap, but aside from a slight nudge from the supporting mods (airflow: manifold, exhaust, remapping, etc) you're going to be on stock 1ZZ torque (and power, duh!) until the lift kicks in >6000rpm, after that a 2ZZ will leave a 1ZZ in the dust!

Rotrex is a great way of getting >200bhp, including a solid swell of torque through the rev range, but it's expensive: theoretically ~£5000, but more likely £6000-£7000. Progressive delivery of lots of power, but the hardware is pricey.

Turbo can get to ~200bhp at the flywheel on a dyno for £2500-£3000 (incl install and some rolling road time) and you'll need ~£4000-£4500 to get 220bhp-ish at the wheels and to get that reliably in all conditions and smoothly (i.e. good ECU + map, charge cooler, turbo timer, etc). The power won't be as progressive as the Rotrex, but my money is currently on a good, SMALL turbo that spools fast and don't aim too high - so you have a chance to get used to the power before deciding if you want more... having driving a turbo that was dialed RIGHT down, even a small amount of extra toque in these cars makes them feel VERY different.

A built engine + either of the above can be pushed a lot further, especially the turbo - 300bhp probably possible, but anything over ~240lb/ft torque and you will been needing significantly better clutch and gearbox, so it all depends on what your budget is. Maybe aim for below this level at the first stage before you decide how much more you want - I know that's what I'm going to do!

If you're aiming for a lightweight 250bhp+, then it is probably worth considering a K20 swap (more tunable) or if you don't mind a bit of extra weight, then the V6's open up that 250bhp-300bhp level of resistance a LOT (2GR's can get well over 300bhp - a lot more with the right FI).... but they all come with their complications and extra risks.

[michaelb]

Cheers guys, I'm going to have to find some time to just think about all this! I always enjoy the feel from a well tuned n/a engine but I'm keen to push the boundaries a bit too with a turbo! Thanks for the list Dan, really useful! Budget will also be an issue!

[dan944]

Cheers guys, I'm going to have to find some time to just think about all this! I always enjoy the feel from a well tuned n/a engine but I'm keen to push the boundaries a bit too with a turbo! Thanks for the list Dan, really useful! Budget will also be an issue!

Hats fine mate.
My budget became a flickering light in the distance . I well and truly went over lol.

[michaelb]

I feel like, if I'm going to spend the money, I want the car to keep up or be faster than it's expensive counterparts - s2000, boxster s etc. I'm not sure I could justify spending thousands and it still isn't as fast as those cars.

[shnazzle]

I feel like, if I'm going to spend the money, I want the car to keep up or be faster than it's expensive counterparts - s2000, boxster s etc. I'm not sure I could justify spending thousands and it still isn't as fast as those cars.

Depends where. I readily smoked living shizzle out of a boxster s on a twisty road. A lot of it comes down to driver.

Pub bragging rights are easily achieved by turbo.
Dan's install, once mapped, will put it in Boxster S territory on straight line and smoke a s2000 without breaking a sweat.

Personally, while I absolutely love the wife's turbo mr2, 80% of the time my stock 1zz will keep up on a run out. The average hatchback these days is so powerful that it's not even worth getting into willy waving on public roads. Hell a 2.0 VW white van with a remap will push over 250bhp.
That's not where mr2s "live".

The only reason I very often think of going turbo is for more effortless overtaking on motorways.

[1979scotte]

Think power to weight rather than pure bhp.
My V6 is still 200 kg lighter than a boxster and an s2000 doesn't handle like a 2.

Perhaps you should consider another car if it's just outright power you are looking for.
I've been in a supercharged vx220 and a Cayman S and I know I prefer my 2.
It fits in a niche that I am happy with.

[shnazzle]

My favourite straight line blaster so far is our old Audi A5 3.0 tdi v6.

That was a thing of beauty.
So freakin fast from standstill and in any gear, any rpm.
Effortless and shames pretty much anything you come across.

Handled remarkably well even on b-roads

And all with 35ish mpg.

Took an RS5 for a blast and was massively underwhelmed and was happy to get back in the A5.
Other than the far superior handling of RS5.

What I'm getting at in the middle of my rambling is that it's torque that gives you that rush.
And it seems like that's what you're after.
So turbo/supercharger or v6 is the way forward.

1zz/2zz N/A have no torque. My daughters push bike has more torque.

[michaelb]

I had an rs4 a few years ago, and loved it, with the exception of the interior lol. I want to keep my 2 as I love the go kart feel it delivers, I just want a bit more power to push me back into the seat in a straight line. The 2 is a lovely looking motor and should go as quick as it looks! I know what you mean shnazzle about cars these days but the 2 feels faster as your sitting so low and it would out turn almost anything. I just want a bit more POWER!! Lol

[Topdownman]

Sounding like you are saying turbo!

I wouldnt go too far though as it will become something different ie a temperamental modified car

(I am a bit concerned that Patrick has been TWOCing  his daughters bike, we know how thats going to end....).

[shnazzle]

Sounding like you are saying turbo!

I wouldnt go too far though as it will become something different ie a temperamental modified car

(I am a bit concerned that Patrick has been TWOCing  his daughters bike, we know how thats going to end....).

It's been more than a year Simon!

[jvanzyl]

The forum never forgets...

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

[Topdownman]

Sorry, thought it was another offence!

[mikek]

1zz/2zz N/A have no torque. My daughters push bike has more torque.

Harsh....but fair :thebird:

[shnazzle]

1zz/2zz N/A have no torque. My daughters push bike has more torque.

Harsh....but fair :thebird:

Yours has torque! Ish.
But yours is not your average bear now is it?

[michaelb]

Yeah I think its turbo all the way for me.. I was just kidding myself about a 2zz lol

[mikek]

Definitely sounds like you want a 250 bhp turbo.

@headcase does a kit that looks good?

[mikek]

1zz/2zz N/A have no torque. My daughters push bike has more torque.

Harsh....but fair :thebird:

Yours has torque! Ish.
But yours is not your average bear now is it?

Who wants to be average?

[shnazzle]

I'd settle for being average

[1979scotte]

I had an rs4 a few years ago, and loved it, with the exception of the interior lol. I want to keep my 2 as I love the go kart feel it delivers, I just want a bit more power to push me back into the seat in a straight line. The 2 is a lovely looking motor and should go as quick as it looks! I know what you mean shnazzle about cars these days but the 2 feels faster as your sitting so low and it would out turn almost anything. I just want a bit more POWER!! Lol

Yep you want a turbo.
They feel quick because of that sudden torque delivery.
Doesn't always help the handling though.

[michaelb]

I suppose that would depend on the lag, that was the big problem with the original 911, the turbo would kick in without warning and send you spinning! Lol