Handling woes

[Call the midlife!]

I'm going to be the one to say it...
How's your subframe?


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Absolutely smashing. And also unlikely to have changed in the 15 mins I was on the drive as well haha. Good thinking though. I only replaced it about a year and a half ago

Well that's me out [emoji23]
Trying to think of anything that could snap/fail/give all of a sudden that would effect your geometry in such an all consuming fashion.
Even a broken spring shouldn't cause that much change and you'd expect to hear it knocking.


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[Call the midlife!]

I'm going to be the one to say it...
How's your subframe?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Absolutely smashing. And also unlikely to have changed in the 15 mins I was on the drive as well haha. Good thinking though. I only replaced it about a year and a half ago

OK, so you have actually already located the ´cause´; the door stabilizers.

Now have a look at

http://trdparts.jp/english/image2012/doorstabilizer_graph.jpg

With the door stabilized, the steering angle response becomes more direct.
In other words; the same steering input should see you to the inside of the corner quicker.
Since it is ceterus paribus we should assume that it is so.

Can you do a objective test?
Wrap a drift style yellow/bue/red/green/whatever tape around the top centre op the steering wheel.
Find a stretch of straight highway and do a ´slalom´ with the dotted line with the driver side front  wheel.
Do same on a more lane round about.
Watch carefully how much steering input you give and how the car responds.

Take the blocks out and repeat.

What is different?

Repeat with the blocks refitted if needed.

It can very well be perception and you ´doing´ it, subconsciously compensating:
Steering in, oops feeling, subconsciously compensating out and then getting insecure, leading to tenser arms adding to a twitchy ´car´ feel.
On motorcycles it is só easy for the rider to be the ´issue´. Done that mááány times befor getting my brain/muscles reprogrammed to a change. Took Jorge Lorenzo a year and a half 

The whole "steer out of a corner to go round a corner" thing on bikes boils my brain.


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[Petrus]

... Lastly... I can't believe I'm having these discussions after sticking some blocks of nylon in my door shuts. Wtf.

Thanks for the link. Have dropped Dev a pm.

I reallyréally appreciate the idea of ´restoring´ some of the structural rigidity a cabrio looses because of not having the roof.

Also looked at the TRD one. The MR2 latches a re the same as the ´common´ type.
Rather more pricey; with customs and VAT about four times, but as Dev himself observes a very neat bit of engineering versus a nylon lump. Still does the same! although spacing out  the door catch puts the more rigid connection higher in the door so should give more structural strength.

Anyway, thanks again.

[Petrus]

The whole "steer out of a corner to go round a corner" thing on bikes boils my brain.

As on bicycles.
Being Dutch born I was practically born cycling yet with modern ultrastiff hyperquick geometry frames with ultra light carbon wheels it is learning to ´unsteer´, to not caúse the instability. By Jove is that responsive. It took me a bit.

[jvanzyl]

Runabout NL sells the TRD door stabilisers... 239 euros!

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[Dev]

I see three major things wrong with this set up.

1. The rear offset not being the same as the front can have a profound negative effect with the scrub radius.
2. The front negative camber needs to be at least -1.5 minimum. If not it will want to come undone. 
3. BC coilovers are valved badly. They are just stiff with no give in the suspension. Suspension needs to be well dampened and there needs to be the right amount of roll for the kind of tires used. 

If the first two are corrected everything will go back to being somewhat normal and above all safe. 

As far as the TRD part goes its nice as I have it in addition to the door bushings that I have made but in my opinion its mild and only about 1/4 the effect and the plastic spacers TRD uses easily falls out which is not fun. Otherwise the TRD part is nicely built and a good solution to eliminating some flex. I originally made the bushings with the intent of matching the effect of the TRD part but what resulted was much more than I anticipated. When I mentioned this on Spyderchat the skeptics ridiculed me and once the testers had a chance to try them there was no denying that its not a placebo effect as it can be overwhelming to some but at the same time mild to others.   

[shnazzle]

Bushes are definitely a go-to. As you say, they won't be in the best state by now. But last time I checked they were actually in an admirable state for the age/miles.
Even the engine mounts looked decent when I did the gearbox.
It's just.. Polybushes...so stiff...
But then you must wonder; what is he whinging about? He's gone to the far end of a fart to make every other aspect of the car stiff and then whinges about bushes haha... Hmmm...  Must rethink my life.

Petrus... Man of many wisdoms. How have I never seen that graph before? So, what you're saying is that actually the car is steering in quicker than I'm used to, and hence I'm trying to force it through as I user to need to. Which then causes the back to break.

On a side-note, I reduced the damping on the rear by 3 clicks before I drove home and it did make a noted improvement. Which kind of supports the statement above. I've made the rear a bit soggier (teehee), hence added some compliance on the rear, which brings it back more to what it was.

Also funny you mention slaloming. I've been doing that a lot since I had them on "just to see". And even more oddly, I was doing it on a big roundabout as well (slowly). And actually the odd thing is, it reacts immediately and steering input is minimal. I can't slalom much on public roads so I could only play with a few degrees of steering angle but I did note it felt short.

... Argh.

Cars make my head hurt. If it's not engine management it's handling and physics making my brain ouch

[Petrus]

As far as the TRD part goes its nice as I have it in addition to the door bushings that I have made but in my opinion its mild and only about 1/4 the effect and the plastic spacers TRD uses easily falls out which is not fun. Otherwise the TRD part is nicely built and a good solution to eliminating some flex. I originally made the bushings with the intent of matching the effect of the TRD part but what resulted was much more than I anticipated. When I mentioned this on Spyderchat the skeptics ridiculed me and once the testers had a chance to try them there was no denying that its not a placebo effect as it can be overwhelming to some but at the same time mild to others.

I can totally see yours work as it holds the door under ánd at the latch, albeit only in one (each opposing) direction, but the effect is that the door is held quite firmly.

I appreciate you explaining the percíeved effect being individually different.  That is why I don´t exclude this as a possible explanation for what Snazzle experiences. His problem is a clear cut before and after.
All in all very interesting!

Btw, did you have a look at the 1 cm diameter round rubber at the top of the door? Replacing that by an identical but more solid one would add another support. A minor one but hígh up.

[Topdownman]

Just a couple of questions, will adding a 10mm spacer to an ET45 wheel not just make it into an eT35 wheel with all the clearance issues that would bring?

I use the same wheel sizes and tyre sizes as you and I was aiming for a -1 10 camber on the fronts and ended up with 1 14 and 1 07 (this is the previous time I had the alignment checked, couldnt find the latest sheet).

This is way different to your set up?

[Carolyn]

I've done quite a bit of racing over the years (toooo many years).

As I pointed out in another thread and as other contributors to this thread have said, racing is a world away from 'spirited driving' on public roads and even doing the occasional 'track day'.

The more you modify that which  is a car designed to perform well in real-world road conditions, and get away from the manufacturer's design criteria, the less of a good road car you're going to have.

Good track car = lousy road car and vice versa.

[Petrus]

I've done quite a bit of racing over the years (toooo many years).

As I pointed out in another thread and as other contributors to this thread have said, racing is a world away from 'spirited driving' on public roads and even doing the occasional 'track day'.

The more you modify that which  is a car designed to perform well in real-world road conditions, and get away from the manufacturer's design criteria, the less of a good road car you're going to have.

Good track car = lousy road car and vice versa.

That is why the Nürburgring fetishsism is such a bummer.

Concerning mods for the track we are só on the same line with the addition that those mods are súre to be a less optimal compromise.
Even dealer/OEM availeble mods/options cannot be taken for granted to be an improvement. It is after all extra profit/marketing. Just look at the TRD rear strut brace...

[shnazzle]

I've done quite a bit of racing over the years (toooo many years).

As I pointed out in another thread and as other contributors to this thread have said, racing is a world away from 'spirited driving' on public roads and even doing the occasional 'track day'.

The more you modify that which  is a car designed to perform well in real-world road conditions, and get away from the manufacturer's design criteria, the less of a good road car you're going to have.

Good track car = lousy road car and vice versa.

How true that is.

If I take Tommyzoom's car for example; full on track setup and he does track the living bejesus out of that thing.. Well.. Before he binned it hehe (can't wait to see v2 on the road!) but in any case it gripped absolutely amazingly on normal roads as well.
However... But... Big but... Straight line stability was iffy (he runs some crazy amount of camber) so while grip was amazing, handling for day to day was choice.
Having said that... Yes mine's a daily but if it gripped like  Tommy's, was as well-balanced, and as predictable...I'd be a happy chappy.
I guess I like the challenge of a very responsive car.

Point firmly noted though

[Dev]

As far as the TRD part goes its nice as I have it in addition to the door bushings that I have made but in my opinion its mild and only about 1/4 the effect and the plastic spacers TRD uses easily falls out which is not fun. Otherwise the TRD part is nicely built and a good solution to eliminating some flex. I originally made the bushings with the intent of matching the effect of the TRD part but what resulted was much more than I anticipated. When I mentioned this on Spyderchat the skeptics ridiculed me and once the testers had a chance to try them there was no denying that its not a placebo effect as it can be overwhelming to some but at the same time mild to others.

I can totally see yours work as it holds the door under ánd at the latch, albeit only in one (each opposing) direction, but the effect is that the door is held quite firmly.

I appreciate you explaining the percíeved effect being individually different.  That is why I don´t exclude this as a possible explanation for what Snazzle experiences. His problem is a clear cut before and after.
All in all very interesting!

Btw, did you have a look at the 1 cm diameter round rubber at the top of the door? Replacing that by an identical but more solid one would add another support. A minor one but hígh up.

There is still a lot of mystery associated with this modification that is interesting and that is why I pursued it with a passion after noticing the effect of the TRD part. I did a before and after with local testers where I was the passenger so I can note their impressions and the most weird thing is as passenger I could feel the difference over bumps.

As far at the top of the door goes and the latch area, I originally had the idea to build something at that location but it was abandoned.  As much as I would have like to use that area It was simply too risky if there are unknowns that I did not account for and either the door will not open or will come open unexpectedly. I don't have an engineering team to do that kind of testing. The solution I found  ended up being much easier, safer and it works just as good if not better in some respects because there is more material contact and enough give in the bushings to take repeated impacts.  Its also far more cost effective as well which works out great for all of us.   

[shnazzle]

As far as the TRD part goes its nice as I have it in addition to the door bushings that I have made but in my opinion its mild and only about 1/4 the effect and the plastic spacers TRD uses easily falls out which is not fun. Otherwise the TRD part is nicely built and a good solution to eliminating some flex. I originally made the bushings with the intent of matching the effect of the TRD part but what resulted was much more than I anticipated. When I mentioned this on Spyderchat the skeptics ridiculed me and once the testers had a chance to try them there was no denying that its not a placebo effect as it can be overwhelming to some but at the same time mild to others.

I can totally see yours work as it holds the door under ánd at the latch, albeit only in one (each opposing) direction, but the effect is that the door is held quite firmly.

I appreciate you explaining the percíeved effect being individually different.  That is why I don´t exclude this as a possible explanation for what Snazzle experiences. His problem is a clear cut before and after.
All in all very interesting!

Btw, did you have a look at the 1 cm diameter round rubber at the top of the door? Replacing that by an identical but more solid one would add another support. A minor one but hígh up.

There is still a lot of mystery associated with this modification that is interesting and that is why I pursued it with a passion after noticing the effect of the TRD part. I did a before and after with local testers where I was the passenger so I can note their impressions and the most weird thing is as passenger I could feel the difference over bumps.

As far at the top of the door goes and the latch area, I originally had the idea to build something at that location but it was abandoned.  As much as I would have like to use that area It was simply too risky if there are unknowns that I did not account for and either the door will not open or will come open unexpectedly. I don't have an engineering team to do that kind of testing. The solution I found  ended up being much easier, safer and it works just as good if not better in some respects because there is more material contact and enough give in the bushings to take repeated impacts.  Its also far more cost effective as well which works out great for all of us.   

Judging by that response Dev, you do have an engineering team; you.
I never thought of the security/safety implications.
Good man

[Petrus]

As far at the top of the door goes and the latch area, I originally had the idea to build something at that location but it was abandoned.   

I will have a look at that small rubber then. Depending on where it rests against a more solid replacement could counterbalance  the inevitable torsion created by the nylon spacers.
Well unless you would want to sell on your TRD ones that is 
Your´s ánd the TRD seems the best of two worlds.

Fingers crossed the five orders will be fulfilled soon 
Looking forward to the improvement.

[Dev]

As far as the TRD part goes its nice as I have it in addition to the door bushings that I have made but in my opinion its mild and only about 1/4 the effect and the plastic spacers TRD uses easily falls out which is not fun. Otherwise the TRD part is nicely built and a good solution to eliminating some flex. I originally made the bushings with the intent of matching the effect of the TRD part but what resulted was much more than I anticipated. When I mentioned this on Spyderchat the skeptics ridiculed me and once the testers had a chance to try them there was no denying that its not a placebo effect as it can be overwhelming to some but at the same time mild to others.

I can totally see yours work as it holds the door under ánd at the latch, albeit only in one (each opposing) direction, but the effect is that the door is held quite firmly.

I appreciate you explaining the percíeved effect being individually different.  That is why I don´t exclude this as a possible explanation for what Snazzle experiences. His problem is a clear cut before and after.
All in all very interesting!

Btw, did you have a look at the 1 cm diameter round rubber at the top of the door? Replacing that by an identical but more solid one would add another support. A minor one but hígh up.

There is still a lot of mystery associated with this modification that is interesting and that is why I pursued it with a passion after noticing the effect of the TRD part. I did a before and after with local testers where I was the passenger so I can note their impressions and the most weird thing is as passenger I could feel the difference over bumps.

As far at the top of the door goes and the latch area, I originally had the idea to build something at that location but it was abandoned.  As much as I would have like to use that area It was simply too risky if there are unknowns that I did not account for and either the door will not open or will come open unexpectedly. I don't have an engineering team to do that kind of testing. The solution I found  ended up being much easier, safer and it works just as good if not better in some respects because there is more material contact and enough give in the bushings to take repeated impacts.  Its also far more cost effective as well which works out great for all of us.   

Judging by that response Dev, you do have an engineering team; you.
I never thought of the security/safety implications.
Good man

Im a team of one. Its very easy to make all sorts of things for yourself and you will have endless amounts of great solutions but as far as safety goes for others it narrows nearly all of your available options. Even if you get thought that stage it will come down to how complex and costly it is to be worth consideration so it sells.
  Although these seem like two plastic blocks there is so much thought that went into the design and material that it was a struggle just to get them to print. 
I tried other materials like ABS and some other nylons but they didn't work out as well as alloy 910 which is an outstanding material for this purpose.
Anyway that was the thought process behind these bushings. Certainly not a simple matter but a nice milestone.

[Dev]

As far at the top of the door goes and the latch area, I originally had the idea to build something at that location but it was abandoned.   

I will have a look at that small rubber then. Depending on where it rests against a more solid replacement could counterbalance  the inevitable torsion created by the nylon spacers.
Well unless you would want to sell on your TRD ones that is 
Your´s ánd the TRD seems the best of two worlds.

Fingers crossed the five orders will be fulfilled soon 
Looking forward to the improvement.

  The nylon bushings are kind of in the corner of the door and should brace forces in two directions.  I did in fact remove the TRD plastic that goes on the door which decouples the effect of the TRD hinge when I was testing the bushings and it didn't make a difference. Most of the effect was with the door bushings.  Actually the TRD part is not as tight as you would think. Part of it slides away using some kind of spring mechanism and it still has play. My bushings depending on how tight they are set will arrest 90% of the door movement where as the TRD is less than 30%.

If you are still interested in the TRD part there is a possibility I could sell those to you if I can locate my old hinges.

[Petrus]

  The nylon bushings are kind of in the corner of the door and should brace forces in two directions.  I did in fact remove the TRD plastic that goes on the door which decouples the effect of the TRD hinge when I was testing the bushings and it didn't make a difference. Most of the effect was with the door bushings.  Actually the TRD part is not as tight as you would think. Part of it slides away using some kind of spring mechanism and it still has play. My bushings depending on how tight they are set will arrest 90% of the door movement where as the TRD is less than 30%.

If you are still interested in the TRD part there is a possibility I could sell those to you if I can locate my old hinges.

I was under the imprssion that the TRD latch slides up a ramp, closing the gap as the door is pushed shut. If it still has play in the latched position, then it literally leaves room for improvement 
Your bushing ´loads´(minimally) the latch, that way taking up áll play. Yes that is no doubt more solid, more rigid.

Yes I am (pending price) interested in the TRD latch as I would try mount the TRD one with less play and combine it with your solution.

[Dev]

  The nylon bushings are kind of in the corner of the door and should brace forces in two directions.  I did in fact remove the TRD plastic that goes on the door which decouples the effect of the TRD hinge when I was testing the bushings and it didn't make a difference. Most of the effect was with the door bushings.  Actually the TRD part is not as tight as you would think. Part of it slides away using some kind of spring mechanism and it still has play. My bushings depending on how tight they are set will arrest 90% of the door movement where as the TRD is less than 30%.

If you are still interested in the TRD part there is a possibility I could sell those to you if I can locate my old hinges.

I was under the imprssion that the TRD latch slides up a ramp, closing the gap as the door is pushed shut. If it still has play in the latched position, then it literally leaves room for improvement 
Your bushing ´loads´(minimally) the latch, that way taking up áll play. Yes that is no doubt more solid, more rigid.

Yes I am (pending price) interested in the TRD latch as I would try mount the TRD one with less play and combine it with your solution.

It kind of does slides up on a ramp however part of the plate which is spring loaded detaches and slides  towards the inner part of the door. On the opposite side of the door you will install these clips that hold in the provided plastic pieces which is what creates the interference and locks everything together. However its not supper tight and has play in it but better then just having the latch as the only point of contact between the door and the frame so it will do something but nowhere near enough.  Its a very well made but way more complex in operation and its flaw is the plastic piece on the opposite side of the door that is easy to come off the clips and fall on the floor.
If you lose the plastic pieces then you are out of luck because you cant get a replacement and all you will have left is an expensive hinge.
I have a feeling they implemented it this way so that there is no liability with the door getting jammed and so the end user will not have to make any adjustments. My bushings on the other hand is made for enthusiasts which are far more forgiving in regards to understanding that adjustments might be needed for a good fit.

If I find my old latches in my garage then we can work something out. 

[Petrus]

If I find my old latches in my garage then we can work something out.

Finger crossed 

[Petrus]

Petrus...  So, what you're saying is that actually the car is steering in quicker than I'm used to, and hence I'm trying to force it through as I user to need to. Which then causes the back to break.

On a side-note, I reduced the damping on the rear by 3 clicks before I drove home and it did make a noted improvement. Which kind of supports the statement above. I've made the rear a bit soggier (teehee), hence added some compliance on the rear, which brings it back more to what it was.

Also funny you mention slaloming. I've been doing that a lot since I had them on "just to see". And even more oddly, I was doing it on a big roundabout as well (slowly). And actually the odd thing is, it reacts immediately and steering input is minimal. I can't slalom much on public roads so I could only play with a few degrees of steering angle but I did note it felt short.

You are well on the way to getting to grips then.

You had no issue before so it is unlikely that there is a mechanical issue after.
Feel is só crucial.
The increased stiffness gives you more and more direct feedback. Unless one lacks common sense of self preservation that can only lead to ´WOAHHHH´.

Increasing the softness at the rear will slow things down and help you confidence. Whether it is the best set up?
Take your time getting used to the feel.

I am going to an akin phase; the initial understeer REALLY unsettles me. My personal style is too engrained from racing all sorts of motorcycles to change but I am aware that I go in too deep before peeling off and tend to make it worse by braking late (too deep as well).
The current crap rubber, different brands/compounds/carcass F and R!!!, makes it a ´guess what?!´, not adding to the confidence in either the car or myself.

Now, when going to new rubber I will go to 195/50 but apart from adding lightness and stiffening it up somewhat prefer to leave well enough alone.
I knów that the OEM set up is good and that quality all rounder road hoops with a low load index will suit it.
It is me; on the public road, not racing and the only REALLY important thing is the braking distance 
The rest is just fun 

Bottom line; get some miles behind you. Relax. Do not attach too much weight to the limits with AD08s on cold, moist roads; you knów they are subideal, you knów you can sort the occasional ´happening´; don´t screw up your setup for that.

[shnazzle]

I'm convinced there isn't a mechanical problem perse. Perhaps just suboptimal to my likings in certain areas. Also some aged bushes. Well, definitely aged bushes, but I need to keep some level of flex somewhere in the car.

The one thing I've said from day 1 of putting my wheels on is that I need to get the track sorted front to back. So I will buy spacers. 10mm just to bring it back to square. As Simon says, 20mm would lead to me having to flare my arches which I can't be bothered with.

On the way to work I went I to a roundabout a bit faster than I was comfortable with, but not faster than I usually would be comfortable with, and nothing happened. It didn't feel great but that could be me. The unbalanced feeling remains.

[Topdownman]

So are you not  considering your alignment set up?

That front camber sounds less than ideal to me.

I wonder whether jet washing your arches and shocks would help? I think they get covered in dirt at this time of year which must create an inertia for the dampers to overcome before they can move and they dont have much travel to begin with.

(I am still amazed by the effect of these bushes on your car though!).

[shnazzle]

So are you not  considering your alignment set up?

That front camber sounds less than ideal to me.

I wonder whether jet washing your arches and shocks would help? I think they get covered in dirt at this time of year which must create an inertia for the dampers to overcome before they can move and they dont have much travel to begin with.

(I am still amazed by the effect of these bushes on your car though!).

I'm definitely considering alignment. But at the minute the understeer the low camber at the front gives me is a bit of a buffer for me. Day to day I'd rather see the tree I'm hitting than going into it backwards. It would do my head in on track, but that doesn't happen so...

Having said that, I will go -1 next time after I widen the rear track

[Bossworld]

Your suspension bushes may not necessarily 'look' bad but they're still 13 years and 80?k miles old.

Mine didn't look terrible and there wasn't any particularly noticeable play pulling on the wheels with the car jacked up. But there is a massive difference in the movement of new ball joints and inner tie rods. Admittedly the car has only moved in and out the garage since it was done but I'm sure it felt different.

You also don't need to polybush (if you think it's front related) - I got arms, droplinks, tie rod ends, a new inner tie rod and some misc bolts for less than £90 all in. Probably cost about that in tools lol

If you're passing by at any point you're welcome to try my stock wheels but given the brands on them I'm not sure it would be an objective test.