Final word on intakes

[shnazzle]

...and like it often goes a piece of double Twin Air foam is coming my way; enough for three elements.
Cost 37 €uros and an old filter.



So that will be an OEM intake with elbow mod/ duct delete and a réally proper filter element.

Interested. What makes this material so much more superior to readily available filters? Or is the idea that this TwinAir stuff is throw-away?

[Carolyn]

This is getting to be an awful lot of final words'.

[shnazzle]

This is getting to be an awful lot of final words'.

Haha. Well the final words remain and there hasn't been any challenges  

The rest is just extra fluff

[Dev]

I wonder what Rogue have done to the 1zz intake system then to make it work on 2zz. They must have rebuilt the MAF adapter to be chopped from the 2zz or done something trickier.
When I looked in the bay it definitely looked stock to me. But I didn't have a close look.
What I don't understand is sometimes they do that, sometimes they provide cones with another setup.

The easiest way to know is if the fuel trims read negative at idle and if at part throttle the fuel trims are in the range of less than +5.  If they read closer to  +10 LTFT then its probably correct. 
 This is assuming that other things are correct. If there is any exhaust restrictions it can though off the fuel trims. 

Negative fuel trim is usually pointing to a problem but not always if its on the boarder there are some rare situations where it is normal but when I see them I know something isn't optimal.

True positive fuel trims are good. It can mean that you have a less restrictive intake and exhaust which the car can now take advantage of your modifications but upto a certain point where it runs out of allowable fuel trims and then throws a CEL.

The intakes on these cars is generally not the choke point but we downgrade them when we think we are adding a modifications that we believe are a benefit because of false marketing. The major choke point is the downpipe and that is where you will get real gains for most cars but somehow it is the most overlooked modification. 


 

[Dev]

or possibly in a different altitude from where the tests were conducted.   

Good point.
I live at 800 meters and an average day sees 0 to 1200 metres.

There have been known issues with adopting or trading tunes for stand alone ECUs but this is when elevations are extreme. The ECU like our is sophisticated enough to adjust for the barometric pressure which is read by the MAF sensor.  However when you do something different to fool the ECU for more power it can then misbehave.  These ECUs are sophisticated but they are far from perfect especially when you add modifications to them.   

[Petrus]

Interested. What makes this material so much more superior to readily available filters? Or is the idea that this TwinAir stuff is throw-away?

It is not a filter in the traditional sense of sieving out particles larger than the holes.
Thís foam is designed to be a labyrith forcing the air to change direction, causing particles to sling to the outside. The surface being thinly coated with very sticky fluid, the particle get caught.
As such it is a centrifugal filter, not a seive like paper and other foam inserts.
The holes can be a lot larger. More so because the foam is two stage; first more course and then finer.
This prevents the easiest caught heavier/larger particles from clogging the finer layer.

This type of filter has almost five decennia* of prooven history in motorcross but has not flown widely outside of that.
The reason is that it is not maintenance free and that maintenance rather involved. You need to wash the filter fairly regularly and applying the fluid is a sticky affair costing time and effort. That simply is too expensive for commuter cars et al.
Also the filter needs to dry overnight at least.
Light coating only and letting it dry are paramount!! in preventing the fluid from being sucke through. Hence I always had two elements so I could swap out and clean the dirty one at leisure, store it in a sealed plastic bag ready for re-use.

How often it needs cleaning depends ofcourse. I live in dusty country and would wash it out between 5K and 10K kms. In say the Netherlands make that 10K plus.
The cleaning/coating causes mechanical wear on the material but it still has the life time of a  few paper filter elements.

As I wrote, it is the only ´exception´ to the rule of better flow = less filtering. Between brackets because it does not síeve.

* the basic idea goes back wáy futher still to the simple metal mesh carburettor inlet coverings. Those were supposed to be lightly oiled with heavy oil diluted with petrol.
They were intended to be washed out weekly, even daily but because the principle was not understood by the users, nobody maintained them correctly and in practice were hardly better than nothing so they went the way of the dino.

[Petrus]

The ECU like our is sophisticated enough to adjust for the barometric pressure which is read by the MAF sensor.   

Same thing temperature and relative humidity.
At this very moment ambient air is 43 degrees centigrade and humidity mid 20%.
Together with the altitude, this seriously reduces power output but the mixture is ok.

I have driven the car to 2000 metres on a hot day and noticed no change in idle from a near freezing rainy day at the coast so I´d say that the parameters are quite widely programmed.

[Dev]

The ECU like our is sophisticated enough to adjust for the barometric pressure which is read by the MAF sensor.   

Same thing temperature and relative humidity.
At this very moment ambient air is 43 degrees centigrade and humidity mid 20%.
Together with the altitude, this seriously reduces power output but the mixture is ok.

I have driven the car to 2000 metres on a hot day and noticed no change in idle from a near freezing rainy day at the coast so I´d say that the parameters are quite widely programmed.

Very true. The problem often times comes from standalone ECUs that are not as sophisticated as the stock ECU to make those changes effectively. It also comes from modifications that are not adapted well that fools the ECU taking it to its limits.

[Dev]

 One thing to be pointed out. A under or over reporting maf will not be the primarily reason for the power loss in regard to fueling. It is the calculations of the ignition timing that is key here. The 02 sensors rule the fueling ultimately to keep the cars fueling  within specifications. It will not run rich or leaner otherwise it would greatly effect emissions. This is a strategy that is programed from the manufacture as the car ages and deteriorates.

 The problem with these intake is, ECU will not take advantage of the timing that is read by the MAF and calculated by the ECU and it will be most felt during part throttle. A good part throttle  response is what gives you  drivability which is what is missing from aftermarket intakes. 

[Carolyn]

Will you boys, please, stop showing off how clever you are?

All of this adds up to.  'Leave the bugger alone' doesn't it? 

And before you answer.  Yes it does.

[Petrus]

One side note; even further aside.
Vroegâh, in the previous century, when we were still faffing about with jets, needle hight, slide cut out, venturi shap/side et al, a good table for relative air density and humidity was crucial hence also a meteo set 

Back on subject; yes Carolyn, succinctly put!

[shnazzle]

Will you boys, please, stop showing off how clever you are?

All of this adds up to.  'Leave the bugger alone' doesn't it? 

And before you answer.  Yes it does.

Hahahaha ha

Brilliant!

[Dev]

Will you boys, please, stop showing off how clever you are?

All of this adds up to.  'Leave the bugger alone' doesn't it? 

And before you answer.  Yes it does.

Im certainly not. I don't see why it really matters if there is a discussion. I didn't know it was perceived as showing off as I take exception to that kind of ridicule when Im just trying to be helpful, not clever.

[shnazzle]

Will you boys, please, stop showing off how clever you are?

All of this adds up to.  'Leave the bugger alone' doesn't it? 

And before you answer.  Yes it does.

Im certainly not. I don't see why it really matters if there is a discussion. I didn't know it was perceived as showing off as I take exception to that kind of ridicule when Im just trying to be helpful, not clever.

It's all in jest Dev. 

But that was the point of this particular thread, and there isn't actually much (if any) argument against my statement. 
Having said that, obviously I won't back out of a nice juicy discussion about fuel trims  
It'll be on my grave stone: "His fuel trims exceeded maximum tolerance "

[Gatouzze]

A quick question though, with a piggyback is it still best to use the OEM intake or change for an aftermarket one?

[Call the midlife!]

A quick question though, with a piggyback is it still best to use the OEM intake or change for an aftermarket one?

It's kind of the other way round, if you're not changing the intake you've little need for a piggyback. But if you're using a high end one that allows you to tailor your timing for instance then you've got scope to change your intake as well.

[Dev]

A quick question though, with a piggyback is it still best to use the OEM intake or change for an aftermarket one?

Aftermarket for the 2ZZ however it is a loaded question. Some found that the vanes seemed to make tuning a bit better  because it was easier for the map to be scaled correctly.  Therefore some actually bought the larger Cobb intake and was able to have the best of both worlds with the 2ZZ that can benefit from a larger intake. 

This tells me that the MAF was calibrated with the tube to very tight tolerances. 

If you are interested I can try and find you a used Cobb intake and send that over to you for testing.

[Gatouzze]

Aftermarket for the 2ZZ however it is a loaded question. Some found that the vanes seemed to make tuning a bit better  because it was easier for it to be scaled correctly.  Therefore some actually bought the larger Cobb intake and was able to have the best of both worlds with the 2ZZ that can benefit from a larger intake. 

This tells me that the MAF was calibrated with the tube to very tight tolerances. 

If you are interested I can try and find you a used Cobb intake and send that over to you for testing.

I very appreciate the offer but I am running a 1ZZ but I'm sure someone running a 2ZZ could be interested!

[Dev]

Aftermarket for the 2ZZ however it is a loaded question. Some found that the vanes seemed to make tuning a bit better  because it was easier for it to be scaled correctly.  Therefore some actually bought the larger Cobb intake and was able to have the best of both worlds with the 2ZZ that can benefit from a larger intake. 

This tells me that the MAF was calibrated with the tube to very tight tolerances. 

If you are interested I can try and find you a used Cobb intake and send that over to you for testing.

I very appreciate the offer but I am running a 1ZZ but I'm sure someone running a 2ZZ could be interested!

Sorry about that, I had my wires crossed. 
I meant that for Shnazzle

[Alex Knight]

I'm interested in this thread, as I have recently suffered from a massive bout of overfuelling in my 2ZZ car - albeit this is the only time in 6 or so years I have ever had this issue (including many, many track days).

I am running with a MWR MAF adapter, and a cone filter behind the battery.

I wonder if the stock 1ZZ setup would work well on a 2ZZ?

It won't. It will run but it will over report the fuel trims but it will do something much worse, it will choke the 2ZZ. 
The 1ZZ intake uses a different vane arrangement and it is calculated for the 1ZZ ECU. Some people have done this and were wondering why they lost nearly 30hp.

The MWR intake does just the opposite like most aftermarket intakes  which is it will under report and add fuel. This will decrease the part throttle response.
 The only right intakes is the Cobb intake for the WRX or the stock 2zz intake. 

 All of these intake modifications can work with stock ECU but it wasn't meant for that. The increase or decrease in fuel trims are a way of compensating for dirty air filtration, engine wear and sensors that drift out of calibration as the car gets older.  The ECU will just chug along with a decrease in fuel efficiency and power but the most important thing they make sure of is that the car is emissions compliant.
   

 On the flip side of things you can trick the computer into making more power for you by messing  with the intake to some extent. This is very similar to using a piggy back. In order to do this the intake needs to be flow tested on a bench and tested against the ECU. Cap did this and thats why it works however its not a one size fits all as you can have an issue if the engine is badly worn, damaged or possibly in a different altitude from where the tests were conducted.   

Very interesting stuff - fully appreciate you sharing your knowledge. Guess I'll stick to the cone behind the battery!

[Petrus]

[Petrus]

[Petrus]

To make the filter of champions:
- get a sheet of twin layer from Twin Air
- find (or diy) an old filter element with gauze insert

Cut the filter foam to size of the outside!! of the rubber circumferance.
Soak the foam in filter fluid.
Massage so all the foam is coated.
Squeeze the foam so excess fluid drips out.
Let it dry for at least 4 hours.
Again massage, now with paper towel.
Foam ready to be fitted!

Lay the foam with the orange side up in the filter box.
Put the gauze on top.
Now VERY CAREFULLY fit the filter box cover: Take care not to move the faom and gauze!
The goal is to have the rubber edge of the old filter element hold the foam on the surface edge of the filter box. The lid clamps it all down; the foam will compress and thus seal.

As explained earlier, this foam is very free flowing and the sticky surface will capture the particles efficiently.
It was designed for high revving small capacity two-stroke engines with minute filter housings and currently keeps the high powered four stroke off road bikes free yet clean breathing.

It is a bit of a faff but it works and imo the only filter material that flows ánd cleans air.

[shnazzle]

Link to filter material?

[Petrus]

Link to filter material?

https://www.twinair.com/air-fuel-oil-filtration-products.php


Part numbers of the sheets;

160002 Single Stage Foam (600X300X10mm, Orange)

160003 Dual Stage Foam (600X300X15mm, Orange/White)

160003B Single Stage Foam (600X300X20mm, Orange)

160004 Triple Stage Foam (600X300X18,5mm, Orange/White/Black)

You will need to order from a UK based dealer.