Final word on intakes

[Gaz mr-s]

Patrick same as me, struggling to navigate the site........I've since input the code for the filter element you pictured Petrus, & it still didn't want to play....   

However googling it gives this....
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Twin-Air-Dual-Stage-Air-Filter-Foam-Sheet-160003-600x300x15mm-/173972891106?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c1

[Call the midlife!]

I considered the Twinair to refresh the foam in the HKS Mushroom as I'm familiar with their moto filters but also got bored trying to find it on their website 😂

[Gaz mr-s]

Now to source a housing for it....

[Petrus]

Find a dealer through the side and order de part number from thém. Worked for me ;-)

[ChrisToffa]

I want to quickly resurrect this intake discussion as it was going to be the next mod to my roadster, but after reading these posts I'm undecided and have some questions.

I really want to go with a behind the battery cone filter primarily for the acoustics and a tad better throttle response. I accept I might be losing a couple of hp or low end torque in doing so.

So ripping the stock intake pipe out of the airbox and retaining the all important vanes seems the best way to go.

It's suggested in these posts that still causes a positive shift in ST/FT's
Is this proven or an estimate?? Many who have fitted this set up comment that it runs well and seems to make no difference with the butt dyno. Was the actual before and after deltas in the trims actually recorded?

If there is a positive shift in FT's then can anything further be done to keep them to a minimum?

I see some people fit the cone straight on to the MAF pipe - would a 3" length silicone pipe between the MAF and cone help out further?

In the concept of the MAF mod, raising it's position in the pipe causes FT's to go negative. Can this idea be used to offset any increases?

If I do go ahead with this I will probably use a 70mm Apexi cone. Is this weight of all of this going  to be ok suspended from the throttle body or do I need to think about fabricating a support bracket?

[Ardent]

Sadly, I cannot answer your questions and I know it's not want you want to hear.

But, when it comes to the intake on a stock setup. Stock is best.

I'm sure the @shnazzle will be along shortly and dispense the wisdom you seek.

If you are happy sacrificing some performance for noise. Go for it.

[Ardent]

Hello and welcome by the way.

[shnazzle]

Yes. If you're going to do it, the way to do it is to either reproduce or use the stock maf adapter with vanes, in a pipe of the same diameter as stock. So basically you're shortening the tract and adding a less restrictive filter.

People never complain because it does run "well".
The ecu compensates best it can and often very successfully. At the cost of performance.

IF the maf is reading correctly. Big IF. Then a positive fuel trim after installation of the air filter could mean that the car is getting more air in, therefore it's adding more fuel. A good thing.
But, you'll have to know exactly how it was fueling before to know for sure if it was the intake and not an o2 sensor fading or something.

The measurements of changes in fuel trim are proven. Quite a few times.

Support bracket would be best but depends on how much pipework. I had a very short pipe and filter suspended by TB and the other end held up by the pipe that went to the side intake. Never budged

[ChrisToffa]

The best intake set up for a stock ECM is going to be one which advances the timing the most, has the lowest temp intake and sounds the loudest. I guess getting the combination of all 3 isn't possible. I think the MAF mod won't work with a CAI???

[ChrisToffa]

""But, you'll have to know exactly how it was fueling before to know for sure if it was the intake and not an o2 sensor fading or something.""

Okay so I am doing that now as I've got an obi connected and I'm logging everything on torque pro. I've got lots of data logs already exported into spreadsheets. As an general average my overall trims are leaning towards slightly negative at present. When I do get this completed I can do some in depth analysis on the before and after shifts in open and closed loops.

Just jumping back to one of my questions, do you think a 3" coupler before the MAF will help smooth out airflow for the reading at the MAF??

[shnazzle]

The best intake set up for a stock ECM is going to be one which advances the timing the most, has the lowest temp intake and sounds the loudest. I guess getting the combination of all 3 isn't possible. I think the MAF mod won't work with a CAI???

Advanced timing does not mean more power.

Bit of a common misconception. Torque drops off at both ends of the timing curve.
On the stock 1zz the most you'll gain from a couple degrees timing is some engine response. They'll already have it tuned for max brake torque minus a bit of safety margin. But timing curves plateau and drop, they don't peak. So there's a lot of margin you can add before losing significant torque.

A lot to be said for response though.. It makes the car feel quicker. I really enjoyed my advanced timing map on my piggyback . I miss it sometimes.

Lowest temps, yes; behind battery, enclosed  and with direct feed to enclosure from side vent I never exceeded 5-6deg over ambient when driving and 15c or so at standstill.
But, +/-2.5hp per 10c hotter... Never going to notice a diff unless on a very hot day at full chat.

Noise. Absolutely. Gotta love that induction roar. But, after a few years, I'm enjoying the silence of the stock intake now.

You forgot filtration. You have to make sure you're not just plopping a 15quid ebay filter on. You don't want your cylinders messed up for the sake of noise and a bit of throttle response.

MAF mod has worked for some with CAI. Trial and error. Usually has bad effects and people revert back to stock

Re coupler; it'll help fractionally . 3in over a diameter of 70mm is next to no distance for laminar flow.

[ChrisToffa]

For filtration I mentioned my preference would be a 70mm Apexi cone, the only other cheaper alternative I would consider is a Ramair, but I think the Apexi is going to sound the better.

What would happen if I put in a spacer under the MAF thus raising it? The MAF mod suggests that a 1/2" inch spacer slashes fuel trims down to -20. If I got a 1/4 inch spacer machined to fit, would this correct the +10 increase in FT's that you have previously mentioned on a standalone basis? Or does this not work without doing the MAF in it's entirety - (also removing the vanes also and adding the 310 injectors)

[Petrus]

ns.

I really want to go with a behind the battery cone filter primarily for the acoustics and a tad better throttle response.

Best way to go would be to decuct the rear mudguard, cut the edge from the horn, drop in a foam filter.
That will give more intake sound and does not upset the ECU nor does it scare any horses up the scale.

[1979scotte]

Na tuning is a waste of time unless you spend ££££.

Get rid of the kinked pipe leading to the air intake and get a rorty sounding exhaust.

Job done.

[shnazzle]

Correct. It would be a trial/error.
Basically to get that trick to work for any intake other than stock, you have to go through the same process that Cap did on Spyderchat. Trial and error, monitoring AFRs, fuel trims, with vanes, without vanes, with different vanes, etc etc.

In short, you need to redesign the intake system to match the ecu.
I'll let you in on a secret though; Toyota already did it for you haha

[ChrisToffa]

n/a tuning is a definitely a waste of money. I'd so much like to be in a position right now where I could drop in a 2zz or turbo.

I owned an Elise 111R for 18 months several years ago which as you know has a 2zz block so I know how dire a 1zz compares.

Meanwhile I'm just going to have to tweak with what I got for now. I certainly won't being doing anything more than a CAI + exhaust a stop gap.

[Call the midlife!]

I want to quickly resurrect this intake discussion as it was going to be the next mod to my roadster, but after reading these posts I'm undecided and have some questions.

I really want to go with a behind the battery cone filter primarily for the acoustics and a tad better throttle response. I accept I might be losing a couple of hp or low end torque in doing so.

So ripping the stock intake pipe out of the airbox and retaining the all important vanes seems the best way to go.

It's suggested in these posts that still causes a positive shift in ST/FT's
Is this proven or an estimate?? Many who have fitted this set up comment that it runs well and seems to make no difference with the butt dyno. Was the actual before and after deltas in the trims actually recorded?

If there is a positive shift in FT's then can anything further be done to keep them to a minimum?

I see some people fit the cone straight on to the MAF pipe - would a 3" length silicone pipe between the MAF and cone help out further?

In the concept of the MAF mod, raising it's position in the pipe causes FT's to go negative. Can this idea be used to offset any increases?

If I do go ahead with this I will probably use a 70mm Apexi cone. Is this weight of all of this going  to be ok suspended from the throttle body or do I need to think about fabricating a support bracket?

If you want the easy route to a bit more growl then just pull the plastic elbow off before the airbox.

The subject has pretty much been done to death on this and previous threads, Shnazzle backed his findings up with his experiments and Cap over in the States went to great lengths to develop the MAF mod and document the results of changes to the standard arrangements.
There's no one hit answer to your questions really, the only thing that's guaranteed is as Ardent states, standard car runs best with standard setup.
The throttle body should be plenty strong enough to carry the weight but it's more to do with the type of hose and clamps you use, you're only getting around 20-30mm of hose onto the body so everything has to be nice and tight to stop the weight pulling the hose off.
Try and get the MAF as close to the standard distance away from the throttle body as possible as the ECU is expecting that volume of metered air, it'll be working hard all the time otherwise trying to compensate.
Failing all that get a piggyback and try your own experiments and find what works best for you.
You can't beat the growl from a big, open filter if that's what boils your kettle, just bear in mind there's not much soundproofing between you and the engine bay and it can get a bit tiresome on long hauls.👍🏻

[1979scotte]

n/a tuning is a definitely a waste of money. I'd so much like to be in a position right now where I could drop in a 2zz or turbo.

I owned an Elise 111R for 18 months several years ago which as you know has a 2zz block so I know how dire a 1zz compares.

I prefer 1zz turbo to 2zz.
Not a fan really or k20.
I like torque.
Low down dirty torque.

[ChrisToffa]

Yep, there's not one perfect solution for this matter.

"pull the plastic elbow off before the airbox" and the intake temps no doubt go up pulling in air from that position.
stick with stock set up and be happy maintaining the hairdressers persona and sound of the car !
slap on a CAI behind the battery, solves the sound, response and reduces intake temps, but messes fuel trims!

nightmare.

I would get a 1zz piggy or standalone if an engine swap wasn't in my longer term plans.

[shnazzle]

Yep, there's not one perfect solution for this matter.

"pull the plastic elbow off before the airbox" and the intake temps no doubt go up pulling in air from that position.
stick with stock set up and be happy maintaining the hairdressers persona and sound of the car !
slap on a CAI behind the battery, solves the sound, response and reduces intake temps, but messes fuel trims!

nightmare.

I would get a 1zz piggy or standalone if an engine swap wasn't in my longer term plans.

Removing the elbow adds a surprising amount of growl actually and intake temps don't go up by too much at all. 
If you're planning a swap anyway, and it's coming into colder temps, you have nothing to lose by removing it. 

It's really only on cooking hot summer days and long periods of traffic where you 'll get some soak. 
Add a good free flowing panel filter to that and you're 80% there. No impact on fueling. Other than perhaps a bit of positive due to less restrictive panel filter.

[Petrus]

Yep, there's not one perfect solution for this matter.

There is:
The deduduct/foam filter; intake sound, extra response, almost a kilo lighter and nooooo ECU issues.

I don´t know what you expect, but you are talking a filter mod only and having faffed with many more cras and motorcycles than I can possibly count, this is as good as it gets bar open bells and total rejet of Dell´Ortos but without the hassle of the latter!

[Petrus]

I prefer 1zz turbo to 2zz.
Not a fan really or k20.
I like torque.
Low down dirty torque.

Still hoping to win the lottery one day. If that would happen, one thing would be a 1ZZ engine rebuild and TRD compressor fitted (bulkhead modded ofcourse).

[ChrisToffa]

Yep, there's not one perfect solution for this matter.

"pull the plastic elbow off before the airbox" and the intake temps no doubt go up pulling in air from that position.
stick with stock set up and be happy maintaining the hairdressers persona and sound of the car !
slap on a CAI behind the battery, solves the sound, response and reduces intake temps, but messes fuel trims!

nightmare.

I would get a 1zz piggy or standalone if an engine swap wasn't in my longer term plans.

Removing the elbow adds a surprising amount of growl actually and intake temps don't go up by too much at all.

That's interesting, I will give it a go.
It's made me think then, if intake temps are ok in the area of the side panel and rear light then I could chop up a MAF tube, leave it in it's existing position and then route and intake pipe to that area made up with hose and a stainless tube.
This routing and shape of intake tract would replicate the AEM pipe, with a key difference in that the vanes will still be present in the intake. I would be certain that the AEM version would not have them as it appears to be one complete length of mandrel bent pipe. It also maintains the same intake tract post MAF.

[1979scotte]

I prefer 1zz turbo to 2zz.
Not a fan really or k20.
I like torque.
Low down dirty torque.

Still hoping to win the lottery one day. If that would happen, one thing would be a 1ZZ engine rebuild and TRD compressor fitted (bulkhead modded ofcourse).

I wouldn't fit a TRD compressor if you bought me one. If you win the lottery I'd be thinking a bit bigger than that. Eaton TVS or whipple. Or rotrex but I think they work better on larger displacement imho.

[Petrus]

I prefer 1zz turbo to 2zz.
Not a fan really or k20.
I like torque.
Low down dirty torque.

Still hoping to win the lottery one day. If that would happen, one thing would be a 1ZZ engine rebuild and TRD compressor fitted (bulkhead modded ofcourse).

I wouldn't fit a TRD compressor if you bought me one. If you win the lottery I'd be thinking a bit bigger than that. Eaton TVS or whipple. Or rotrex but I think they work better on larger displacement imho.

A Rotrex would be great too, but I lóve the stealth non-look of the TRD and not aiming high ;-)  Would spend some too on going lighter still :-)  Found another 30 kilos or so money cán buy.