Mk3 OBD2 code P1349

[Carolyn]

@Carolyn

I agree with you, I would normally be surprised, as not the sort of thing that comes up very often.
My thoughts are, collectively we have little to no history.
I find it concerning @Elektronic found there was no OCV filter.
Suggests unknown work has already been carried out prior to ownership.
Has someone already been in there? A link out?
Not everyone is as meticulous as you. A whole filter missing, so a link here or there....
So I am thinking start with the basics.

Now who did I pick that up from. 

Good point.  Could have been messed with.

[househead]

I created a one tooth out timing problem when I had my cams out. Alert didn't fire for at least 500 miles. Cleared it thinking it was a stretched old chain. Didn't show up for another few hundred miles. In the end it was showing up every ten miles. Took cam cover off and checked with a straight edge and it was off by one. Fixed it reasonably easily and now no more error.

For me, I lined up the crank marker first, then checked cam markers. Exhaust cam was in line with edge of the timing cover (use a piece of card or metal ruler to check this). Inlet cam was below timing cover edge and it all looked out by one tooth.

Amazing really as when committing the error, it was checked multiple times and looked bang on ... so yea, it's quite easy to put it back wrong!

[Call the midlife!]

I created a one tooth out timing problem when I had my cams out. Alert didn't fire for at least 500 miles. Cleared it thinking it was a stretched old chain. Didn't show up for another few hundred miles. In the end it was showing up every ten miles. Took cam cover off and checked with a straight edge and it was off by one. Fixed it reasonably easily and now no more error.

For me, I lined up the crank marker first, then checked cam markers. Exhaust cam was in line with edge of the timing cover (use a piece of card or metal ruler to check this). Inlet cam was below timing cover edge and it all looked out by one tooth.

Amazing really as when committing the error, it was checked multiple times and looked bang on ... so yea, it's quite easy to put it back wrong!

There's quite a knack to getting everything back in and maintaining tension across the top of the camshaft sprockets for sure. You need to have some slack to be able to lay the camshafts in place while at the same time slightly rotating the shaft to put the tension in across the top. All good fun!

[Elektronic]

Update 5
Thankyou @Carolyn/Ardent/househead/Call the midlife.

The cam cover is off. TDC mark on the crankshaft shows the camshaft sprockets are out by 0.5 to 1.0 tooth.
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I don't know if the jpegs have uploaded OK.
@ househead using your method of a straight edge to get the marks on the sprockets aligned the crankshaft is circa 5 to 10 degree BTDC
@call the midlife, picking up your point about having enough slack between the 2 camshaft sprockets. Depending whether or not i loaded the chain by ( rotating back and forth ) i can see about 1 chain link of slack.
I note from other How To's that the chain tensioner relaxes when there is no oil pressure. Is this correct ?
Meanwhile, how to determine the correct camshaft position.
Looking at the exhaust the marker is appprox 2 mins before 12 from the vertical. The inlet is  approx 2/5 mins past 12 from the vertical.
The groove on the inlet is aligned, does that mean the exhaust has moved.

Any comment or observation would be most welcome. 

[Carolyn]

Position the crank at 0 degrees.  (TDC on #1).  Wind the engine clockwise to get to this poition.. If you go past, wind the engine back past the TDC mark and wind clockwise again to align.  This gets the chain tension in the right place.

Then place the straight edge on the top of the timing cover and get its tip close to the sprockets.

Take a pic.

[househead]

The photos definitely look to me more like 0.5 teeth out than a full one, but that can't be possible, can it? Mine looked a lot more stark and obvious. Are the photos taken with the crank out by 5-10deg or with the crank marker at 0deg?

Ignoring the crank marker (which is unlikely to be wrong unless that's been out)... The marks on the cams should line up both with each other *and* both line up with the timing cover case edge. If you line up the crank marker and then one of your cams is in line with the timing cover but the other isn't, then I'd say that's bang to rights for the cam that isn't in line with the timing cover for being the one that's out.

[Carolyn]

Without the crank being exactly at TDC, the photos tell you nothing that is accurate or definitive.

Make sure the crank is positioned properly, use a small straight-edge and take a pic.  Then we'll KNOW!

Half a tooth is possible - but not likely.  That WOULD be a very stretched chain.  But that's all speculation.....

The crank marker CAN'T be out.  IT's keyed to the crankshaft. Absolutely reliable.

[Call the midlife!]

Update 5
Thankyou @Carolyn/Ardent/househead/Call the midlife.

The cam cover is off. TDC mark on the crankshaft shows the camshaft sprockets are out by 0.5 to 1.0 tooth.
You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.

I don't know if the jpegs have uploaded OK.
@ househead using your method of a straight edge to get the marks on the sprockets aligned the crankshaft is circa 5 to 10 degree BTDC
@call the midlife, picking up your point about having enough slack between the 2 camshaft sprockets. Depending whether or not i loaded the chain by ( rotating back and forth ) i can see about 1 chain link of slack.
I note from other How To's that the chain tensioner relaxes when there is no oil pressure. Is this correct ?
Meanwhile, how to determine the correct camshaft position.
Looking at the exhaust the marker is appprox 2 mins before 12 from the vertical. The inlet is  approx 2/5 mins past 12 from the vertical.
The groove on the inlet is aligned, does that mean the exhaust has moved.

Any comment or observation would be most welcome. 

Sorry, just to clarify any possible confusion over my previous comment in reply to Househead. I was relating to the technique at reassembly rather than a fully assembled, "timed" engine.

You'll understand more when you come to reassemble your own, as it's a complete chain you have to feed the sprockets under it and then rotate them into place. But at the same time have enough play to get the cams/sprocket tightened in.
You're looking for a nice, taught chain across the top of the sprockets and down and around the crankshaft with the only play being on the chain tensioner side.
Looking at yours and the potential lack of OC filter it wouldn't surprise me if someone hasn't already had it in bits and thrown it back together. I wonder if the chain tensioner hasn't been engaged the first time it was turned over? Fairly sure that would've caused more damage but I'm sure someone will come along and confirm that.

[Carolyn]

Midlife and Househead:

Pleas just let me talk the poor guy through it properly?

You're both clouding the matter.....

[Call the midlife!]

Midlife and Househead:

Pleas just let me talk the poor guy through it properly?

You're both clouding the matter.....

Noted. Query the pen mark under his thumb on the exhaust sprocket.

[Carolyn]

Midlife and Househead:

Pleas just let me talk the poor guy through it properly?

You're both clouding the matter.....

Noted. Query the pen mark under his thumb on the exhaust sprocket.

He was advised to mark the chain and sprockets in case the cams have to be lifted.  Just keeps it simple....

[Ardent]

Bit late to this one today as have been sorting out MOT on Alexa.

My 2p,
@Elektronic listen to the words of a master.
Carolyn has done this countless times and I've had the pleasure of watching her at work on my own car.
My car, your car, her car. TDC was established 1st.
No TDC. No point.

[Elektronic]

@Carolyn
As suggested engine set up exactly TDC rotating clockwise. Chain is tight between camshafts.

The timing marks are now aligned, as they say my bad for previous attemptsYou cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.
 
Comments/ next steps welcome

[Ardent]

@Elektronic
See @Carolyn post 29

[Carolyn]

Please take a pic of the groove in the top of the VVTI hub. 

[Carolyn]

Now we've ruled out cam timing, we are left with two possibilities.

1) The VVTI hub is not doing what it's told.  (Gunked or damaged inside).

or

2)  The VVTI hub is not being told what to do. 

Two sensors have input on the behaviour of the VVTI system.  The crankshaft sensor and the camshaft sensor. 

Problems with the crankshaft sensor are (95% of the time) down to a poor earth on the timing cover.  I'd disconnect the earth, give it all a thorough clean to bright metal and put it back.

The camshaft sensor could be an earth problem (on the side on the cylinder head, or they have been known to fail. 

If you PM me, I'll send you a used sensor (I think I can find one) so you can do a swap-out and see what effect it has.  I've probably got at least one of each....

If none of the sensor stuff does the trick....it's time to change the VVTI hub.

[Elektronic]

@Carolyn
Pics of the VVTI groove. Will attend to the earths as you suggest. You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.

[Carolyn]

Ok, thee grooves are lined up...  that's a good thing....

[onion86]

The difference I see after reading through is that my code came on after 10s if not 100s of miles and yours is coming back *very* quickly. Just a thought, you mentioned right at the start that the 12v on the old OCV worked, but was that just whilst it was out? Did you also apply 12v whilst it was in the car whilst idling to check it was invoking the VVT? I expect if it's permanently bunged up then it won't work.

The fact you didn't have a filter does make me think you may have a foreign object in there after all Carolyn's help.

If you've seen what some of the filters look like when people have changed them then they certainly stop a lot of crap. In the end, I did replace my VVT hub, but the one i took out wasn't the original either, so someone had tried to fix it prior to selling me the car 8 years ago. I found a couple of small bits of fiberglass type material in the oil when I took the cam cover off, so my issue could've been that. 4.5k miles since the replacement last year and all is still good for me.

[Elektronic]

Hi Onion
True I haven't tested the OCV with 12 v in situ. However the car does start easily, idles OK, settles down from the 1800rpm cold start to 850 rpm no problem.
Since my original posting I've test run numerous times, just last week a matter of a few miles. Earlier this week all seemed fine. Left it for a heat soak after a run. Continued, all ok, then after some heavy traffic, dreaded warning light. So now the light comes on at random mileages.
Ive become redesigned to having to do the VVTI mechanism.  ( although not looking forward to it )Just going to try the Cam sensor in one last remedy.
Meanwhile. X2 engine flushes, 3 oil changes, new OCV, OCV filter fitted, sensor earths cleaned.
Thanks for your comments

[onion86]

True I haven't tested the OCV with 12 v in situ. However the car does start easily, idles OK, settles down from the 1800rpm cold start to 850 rpm no problem.

If you've not done that then I'd definitely suggest it. Disconnect the connector on the OCV and start the car. Once the idle settles down then apply 12v to the OCV. That should then open the OCV, let the oil through to open the VVT hub and make the car run rough and / or stall. If it doesn't then that points that either you have a blockage between the OCV and hub, or the hub isn't working properly, as per Carolyn's earlier 2 points:

1) The VVTI hub is not doing what it's told.  (Gunked or damaged inside).
or
2)  The VVTI hub is not being told what to do.

The OCV isn't going to ever be engaged when the car is running normally at idle, that's going to be down the the IACV.

[Elektronic]

@onion86
I will do as you suggest. My comment about the OK idle was made because i had assumed the VVTI advanced at start up.
Anyway will follow the steps you have outlined.
Thank you

[Elektronic]

Update:
Applied 12v to OCV in situ. No real discernible change in idle, but rushing /chain noise  with a very slight change in idle.
Thought I would exchange the cam sensor as the 12v to the OCV didn't seem definitive.
I now have P1656 . The warning light illuminates as soon as I start up.
Could I have caused damage to OCV windings ( its difficult to get the probes onto the OCV pins ). Or worse still damaged the ECM.
I guess its substitute the OCV first ?
Anyone know a good mechanic in the Leicester area !

[Carolyn]

Update:
Applied 12v to OCV in situ. No real discernible change in idle, but rushing /chain noise  with a very slight change in idle.
Thought I would exchange the cam sensor as the 12v to the OCV didn't seem definitive.
I now have P1656 . The warning light illuminates as soon as I start up.
Could I have caused damage to OCV windings ( its difficult to get the probes onto the OCV pins ). Or worse still damaged the ECM.
I guess its substitute the OCV first ?
Anyone know a good mechanic in the Leicester area !

Read this: https://www.engine-codes.com/p1656_toyota.html

 probably a bent pin in the connector. 

Original problem is almost certainly the hub.

[jonbill]

Update:
Applied 12v to OCV in situ. No real discernible change in idle, but rushing /chain noise  with a very slight change in idle.
Thought I would exchange the cam sensor as the 12v to the OCV didn't seem definitive.
I now have P1656 . The warning light illuminates as soon as I start up.
Could I have caused damage to OCV windings ( its difficult to get the probes onto the OCV pins ). Or worse still damaged the ECM.
I guess its substitute the OCV first ?
Anyone know a good mechanic in the Leicester area !

Read this: https://www.engine-codes.com/p1656_toyota.html

 probably a bent pin in the connector. 

Original problem is almost certainly the hub.

If no obviously bent pin at the ECU, continuity  at the ecu end of the loom would be a good test.