Coilovers?

[Bimmer-Bob]

Thanks for all the opinions. A few thoughts:

(1) The main advantages of KYB are cost and convenience. They are essentially an OEM replacement as I understand, meaning they will bolt right up (good) but offer similar damping (not so good if changing springs). Then you throw on some springs, but you have no idea if they're properly matched or if you've reduced the service life of the damper by over-springing (and, if so, you must factor earlier replacement in against any initial cost savings). Sticking with OEM springs is of course an option, but that won't meet my requirement for a lower ride height.

(2) Konis are still very much on the table. In terms of price, they are a relatively small leap from they KYBs and are designed from the outset to be run with slightly stiffer springs, like lowering springs (in fact, they sell a kit already paired with Eibach springs, which would probably be my choice). I agree with whoever said that Koni would sell loads of these if they were full strut bodies rather than just inserts. In fact, I think that they would be the de facto strut choice by many people for a primarily street-driven car, and we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation.

But, of course, Koni does not make such a strut and only makes inserts, which means more time in the garage, fiddling at the work bench. And, frankly, I'm not thrilled with the Frankenstein nature of the cut-a-strut installation.

I'm curious why so many recommend the Teins over other brands, like Eibach or H&R? I would have assumed there to be little difference between them, but maybe I'm wrong?

(3) Sill a dearth of first-hand experience with the KWs, although if the Tein SuperStreets are so good with their 3/6 kg spring rates, I'm inclined to think the KWs would be even better, given their slightly greater street bias (spring rates are 3/5 kg). But that cost...

Still a lot to think about. The KYB/Tein combo would be low-cost and low-hassle and probably get me close to a ride height I like without sacrificing ride quality. The Konis would be a step up and probably work better with lowering springs. The cost is over double the KYBs, but still not a huge issue at this range; the penalty in terms of blood, sweat, and tears shed is pretty significant, it seems.

There's no getting around the fact that the KWs are expensive, and I don't pretend to need the double adjustability. Ride height is of course adjustable for fine tuning, for whatever that's worth (I suspect an off-the-shelf lowering spring would be satisfactory). Streetability is always an issue with coilovers, but in my experience there is a world of difference between budget coilovers and premium ones - and the only complaint I've heard about the KWs (other than price) is that they're too soft for serious track work, which is actually a plus in my scenario.

There is an argument to be made to get the best product one can afford in the very beginning ("buy once, cry once"), but also an argument to go with the cheapest and easiest solution that gets the job done. Will have to keep mulling it over...

[tets]

there is a set of Tein Super Street with controller on ebay for £750 with 3 months warranty at the minute!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TOYOTA-MR2-TEIN-SUPER-STREET-ELECTRONIC-ADJUSTABLE-COILOVER-KIT-DAMPER-00-06/383479084336?_trksid=p2485497.m4902.l9144

[Dev]

Absolutely not harsh at all. There's a real quality to the damping.

Miles better on the road than any Meister/BC that I have tried.

 I also have the Tein Super Street. They are not harsh at all and actually on the soft side where you can actually use sway bars to tune the behavior. As Alex pointed out you can feel them moving to dampen bumps and irregularities on the road well to stabilize the car. They are firmer than the Koni inserts but actually dampen better which makes them feel smoother and composed especially at the limit where it inspires confidence. 

 Every application for the Tein SS are different so they cannot be compared and what they researched for the MR-S was well done. 
  I had mine rebuilt at 60k miles because I thought it was time but after they received the dampers the tech said they were fine and once I got them back after the rebuild they were the same. The reason for this is the twin tube design which can take a beating on the street and last a long time. Monotube especially the cheap stuff doesn't fair as well and I have seen several sets of locked up units especially the inverted type.
 There are only a few good street researched sets left on the market and what they all have in common is being twin tube.
 If I was in the market today the only two I would consider is the Cusco Zero 2 and the KW V3. Both have good support and can be rebuilt. There is a big difference between a researched set and a cheap coilover and its not a marginal thing based on budget.

This is the predecessor to the Tein SS. From what Tein told me they improved on their coilover design for the SS by eliminating the helper springs so they would be more street friendly and so they could use the EDFC.

[Bimmer-Bob]

If I was in the market today the only two I would consider is the Cusco Zero 2 and the KW V3. Both have good support and can be rebuilt. There is a big difference between a researched set and a cheap coilover and its not a marginal thing based on budget.

At this point, I'm strongly favoring the KWs. I just don't see myself regretting that decision much. About the only thing I'd prefer more is a set of Ohlins, but those are pretty hard to find (and navigating the Japanese auction sites is a little daunting).

[shnazzle]

For those who know... 

What happens if you put lower rated springs on a strut that originally comes with harder? 
So for example, I put 4/6kg on the BCs which come with 5/7kg out of the box. 
What happens if I out 3/4kg on?

[Bimmer-Bob]

About the only thing I'd prefer more is a set of Ohlins...

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think I might prefer the KWs over the Ohlins for this application. Besides the more street-friendly spring rates, I think the KWs twin-tube design and stainless steel construction will lead to a longer worry-free service life. The Ohlins are great, but they have a pretty short rebuild interval (20,000 or 30,000 KM, IIRC). I think you can extend this a bit, but certainly not indefinitely (in fact, I think mine are overdue for a rebuild).

Another thing is that my experience with Ohlins is limited to the newer Dual Flow Valve (DFV) design, which was not available on MR2 fitments.

For those who know...

What happens if you put lower rated springs on a strut that originally comes with harder?
So for example, I put 4/6kg on the BCs which come with 5/7kg out of the box.
What happens if I out 3/4kg on?

I'm not an expert, but I believe an over-dampened car would not allow for full suspension travel (i.e., the spring would be more resistant to compression). It seems like that might result in either a jarring ride or loss of traction on bumps (or both). However, I doubt a change from 4 kg to 3kg is significant enough to be problematic.

[Dev]

For those who know...

What happens if you put lower rated springs on a strut that originally comes with harder?
So for example, I put 4/6kg on the BCs which come with 5/7kg out of the box.
What happens if I out 3/4kg on?

  Yes it would be over dampened. The springs need to be matched to the valving. 
   A friend of mine did that with his BCs  and although the ride was less harsh it was not very good.

[shnazzle]

About the only thing I'd prefer more is a set of Ohlins...

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think I might prefer the KWs over the Ohlins for this application. Besides the more street-friendly spring rates, I think the KWs twin-tube design and stainless steel construction will lead to a longer worry-free service life. The Ohlins are great, but they have a pretty short rebuild interval (20,000 or 30,000 KM, IIRC). I think you can extend this a bit, but certainly not indefinitely (in fact, I think mine are overdue for a rebuild).

Another thing is that my experience with Ohlins is limited to the newer Dual Flow Valve (DFV) design, which was not available on MR2 fitments.

For those who know...

What happens if you put lower rated springs on a strut that originally comes with harder?
So for example, I put 4/6kg on the BCs which come with 5/7kg out of the box.
What happens if I out 3/4kg on?

I'm not an expert, but I believe an over-dampened car would not allow for full suspension travel (i.e., the spring would be more resistant to compression). It seems like that might result in either a jarring ride or loss of traction on bumps (or both). However, I doubt a change from 4 kg to 3kg is significant enough to be problematic.

I guess really it's a change from 5 to 3 in the front and 7 to 4 rear.

If I were to go from what it ships with.
Jarring is the opposite of what I'd want to achieve but if the struts can cope well...

Yes it would be over dampened. The springs need to be matched to the valving. 
  A friend of mine did that with his BCs  and although the ride was less harsh it was not very good.

Well, I tried.
I wonder if going 4/6kg actually made it worse for me

[Dev]

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think I might prefer the KWs over the Ohlins for this application. Besides the more street-friendly spring rates, I think the KWs twin-tube design and stainless steel construction will lead to a longer worry-free service life. The Ohlins are great, but they have a pretty short rebuild interval (20,000 or 30,000 KM, IIRC). I think you can extend this a bit, but certainly not indefinitely (in fact, I think mine are overdue for a rebuild).

You are on the right track. There is no doubt that Ohlins makes great suspension based on reputation but it depends on the application. Here is the dirty little secret I found out. There are many so called forum race car equationist that show shock dynos in the internets for comparisons and to appear smart. What they do not understand is you cannot judge a coilover system just by looking at the dyno graph especially for a street application because there are trade offs. 
A excellent strut that shows very little cross talk and other metrics that show them to be superior are the reasons why they need to be rebuilt more often.

A good street coilover system doesn't need have the best strut dynos but they should be properly researched as well as the OEM.

[Dev]

Well, I tried.
I wonder if going 4/6kg actually made it worse for me

 I don't want to say no. The friend who changed out his springs to the  rates you listed  said it was much better than the harder spring rates his BCs came with which was unbearable. It might be ok as a compromise of being better as far as ride quality  but I wouldn't expect the same thing as a researched set. Since they were never researched it cant get any worse so why not try, you might like them.

 Where the BCs fail is having so many adjustments for you to match with various spring rates.

 The way Tein does it, they will re-valve for the spring rates they provide during the rebuild.  I didn't go for it because the tech said it would be too hard.

[thetyrant]

For those who know...

What happens if you put lower rated springs on a strut that originally comes with harder?
So for example, I put 4/6kg on the BCs which come with 5/7kg out of the box.
What happens if I out 3/4kg on?

It all depends on the damper range and ability, i did a similar thing with the Teins on my GT86 after another forum member raved about it, i didnt like and it and just felt wrong somehow no matter what i did with damping so ended up switching springs back before swapping it for Ohlins DFV kit which transformed the car.

Ohlins dont make a proper kit for these cars unfortunately, there is the fabled JDM Ohlins kits but like a lot of Japanese coilover they are more circuit spec generally and very firm from what ive seen.

[thetyrant]

I made a cheeky offer on those Tein SS on ebay as if i could get them cheap enough be interesting to try them, im always up for trying other kits as only way you know if something works for you is to try them yourself, it was a fair bit less than asking price as they are a bit of a unknown and look to have a few years/rust etc on them so could well need some work to get back to tiptop, offer was declined but looks like they are willing to move a bit if anyone else fancies them

[Dev]

I made a cheeky offer on those Tein SS on ebay as if i could get them cheap enough be interesting to try them, im always up for trying other kits as only way you know if something works for you is to try them yourself, it was a fair bit less than asking price as they are a bit of a unknown and look to have a few years/rust etc on them so could well need some work to get back to tiptop, offer was declined but looks like they are willing to move a bit if anyone else fancies them

  Very true. Even if you get worn ones they can be rebuilt if the body of the strut is not damaged. I wonder if there is a UK Tein facility that handles this.  I was surprised at the low cost of the rebuild for my suspension and I had a direct contact to the Japanese Tein rebuilder who was pleasant to deal with. They told me to disassemble the strut and just send them the bodies to save on shipping. Another good thing about this suspension is except for the body of the strut every single part can be purchased individually if by some chance it breaks or wears out. I needed a new stud and hex nuts that hold the camber plate because the alignment guy stripped them.

[thetyrant]

Very true. Even if you get worn ones they can be rebuilt if the body of the strut is not damaged. I wonder if there is a UK Tein facility that handles this.  I was surprised at the low cost of the rebuild for my suspension and I had a direct contact to the Japanese Tein rebuilder who was pleasant to deal with. They told me to disassemble the strut and just send them the bodies to save on shipping. Another good thing about this suspension is except for the body of the strut every single part can be purchased individually if by some chance it breaks or wears out. I needed a new stud and hex nuts that hold the camber plate because the alignment guy stripped them.

There is a Tein service centre here in UK yes and ive emailed them to get an idea on price but looking at there guidelines on link below basic service is going to be around £55+vat per damper if its just seals and oil, good chance will need some other bits so i reckon could be £100+ each, add that to cost of kit pushes them upto near what i can get a new kw v3 kit for so for me probably best to just hold on and maybe try those next, thats if i dont fit spring collars to current Koni setup next so i can up spring rate a tad on those, which is all they really need for my usage.

Link -https://uk.tein.com/faq/oh.html

[Dev]

Very true. Even if you get worn ones they can be rebuilt if the body of the strut is not damaged. I wonder if there is a UK Tein facility that handles this.  I was surprised at the low cost of the rebuild for my suspension and I had a direct contact to the Japanese Tein rebuilder who was pleasant to deal with. They told me to disassemble the strut and just send them the bodies to save on shipping. Another good thing about this suspension is except for the body of the strut every single part can be purchased individually if by some chance it breaks or wears out. I needed a new stud and hex nuts that hold the camber plate because the alignment guy stripped them.

There is a Tein service centre here in UK yes and ive emailed them to get an idea on price but looking at there guidelines on link below basic service is going to be around £55+vat per damper if its just seals and oil, good chance will need some other bits so i reckon could be £100+ each, add that to cost of kit pushes them upto near what i can get a new kw v3 kit for so for me probably best to just hold on and maybe try those next, thats if i dont fit spring collars to current Koni setup next so i can up spring rate a tad on those, which is all they really need for my usage.

Link -https://uk.tein.com/faq/oh.html

 I also think its better to just get the KW v3. There is so much more to the KWs than the Teins like like double adjustability and better damping. The Tein dampers settings are useless like most budget coilovers and thats why they work best in a very narrow range but in that limited scope they do a great job. 

[Dev]

I thought this was interesting and kind of related but unrelated.
  Here is the same driver on Ohlins suspension with the Techno pro Sprits car, really great driving skills. You may want to forward it to 11:10

  It would appear that Techno pro website is no longer selling the Ohlins and now carrying KW V3. It doesn't mean one is better than the other just what is available in todays market which isn't much as a lot of products are being discontinued.

[KRAMSNEHPETS]

Someone has bought the tein EDFC off EBay, been beaten to it

[Petrus]

I thought this was interesting and kind of related but unrelated.
  Here is the same driver on Ohlins suspension with the Techno pro Sprits car, really great driving skills. You may want to forward it to 11:10

  It would appear that Techno pro website is no longer selling the Ohlins and now carrying KW V3. It doesn't mean one is better than the other just what is available in todays market which isn't much as a lot of products are being discontinued.

See the rear wing?
I knéw I am right :-)

No seriously, for the road the OEM KYBs are spot on. As was observed, not the same as 100k kms ones, renewing would be an upgrade. The Sportivo kit was a relatively tepic step for a reason.

[thetyrant]

I thought this was interesting and kind of related but unrelated.
  Here is the same driver on Ohlins suspension with the Techno pro Sprits car, really great driving skills. You may want to forward it to 11:10

  It would appear that Techno pro website is no longer selling the Ohlins and now carrying KW V3. It doesn't mean one is better than the other just what is available in todays market which isn't much as a lot of products are being discontinued.

I just dont get the JDM driving style and hence trust very little that they say about products (when its translated lol), nearly every video i watch like this they are aggressive and erratic drivers and would go much faster if they were smoother, in my eyes there are very few what i would call good drivers over there that appear on these videos. It also looks like cars are often setup very stiff for what is a bumpy surface and just makes them harder to control, a lot of the JDM coilover are very stiffly valved/sprung as seems that what there aftermarket wants.

[thetyrant]

Someone has bought the tein EDFC off EBay, been beaten to it

Wonder if it was someone on this thread and what they paid, the seller offered it to me for £675 after i initially offered £600, even that was too much in my eyes really so didnt go for it at 675.  If it turns out to be in perfect order it was a good buy though.

[Petrus]

I just dont get the JDM driving style and hence trust very little that they say about products (when its translated lol), nearly every video i watch like this they are aggressive and erratic drivers and would go much faster if they were smoother, in my eyes there are very few what i would call good drivers over there that appear on these videos. It also looks like cars are often setup very stiff for what is a bumpy surface and just makes them harder to control, a lot of the JDM coilover are very stiffly valved/sprung as seems that what there aftermarket wants.

This is a véry particular use; rácing on a mountain B-road. Yes, pretty rough real world. They know the track like the proverbial back of their hand ánd they drive maximum attack style for spectacle; it´s a video show after all.

You cán take info from it. Especially what is explained in the Spirit videos. Take that as general rule of thumb and then it is confirmation of pretty basic knowledge.

Take these Touge Battle vids. as entertainment with only a limited and specific use comparative value.

In thís video I find it interesting to see what goes wrong with the MR-S. Lift off oversteer and yes probably because too stiff at the rear (still only half as stiff as for circuit use btw).

Bottom line is that you should mount a rear wing .....

[Dev]

I just dont get the JDM driving style and hence trust very little that they say about products (when its translated lol), nearly every video i watch like this they are aggressive and erratic drivers and would go much faster if they were smoother, in my eyes there are very few what i would call good drivers over there that appear on these videos. It also looks like cars are often setup very stiff for what is a bumpy surface and just makes them harder to control, a lot of the JDM coilover are very stiffly valved/sprung as seems that what there aftermarket wants.

 Which JDM coilovers in particular are too stiff? The Japanese make various products for street and track. I would consider the Ohlins to be track oriented.
 As far as street stuff goes they are soft and often twin tube design.
  1. Tein Super Street  Discontinued
  2. Apexi world sport old version made in Japan Disconitnued
  3. JIC Magic Discontinued
  4. Cusco Zero 2

   All of these products have been reported to be too soft for the track but are fine for people that are starting out and primarily for street use. Buying track suspension is on the owner for making an unwise choice and the Japanese manufactures understand that distinction. It goes without saying that none of these coilovers options including the Koni inserts are any good if you live on rough roads. My Teins are so soft that I need a 1" sway bar for the front and a adjustable sway bar for the rear. 

In regards to the driver, Keiichi Tsuchiya is legendary former professional race car driver with almost 40 years racing experience with both national tiles and has participated in Le Mans and other international events. Tsuchiya is probably one of the most popular Japanese motorsports personalities not only in Japan but also in the JDM tuning world which I don't really care for because he popularized drifting but he has the chops even in his old age of 64. 
  What I like about him is his honesty about a particular cars set up. In that same American Togue event he points out problem areas in other cars suspension and doesn't give out false complements. 
   

[Petrus]

In regards to the driver, Keiichi Tsuchiya is legendary former professional race car driver with almost 40 years racing experience with both national tiles and has participated in Le Mans and other international events. Tsuchiya is probably one of the most popular Japanese motorsports personalities not only in Japan but also in the JDM tuning world which I don't really care for because he popularized drifting but he has the chops even in his old age of 64.

Orido is impressive level too.
Ditto Taro san, Techno Pro Spirit owner himslef.

I am relatively good but not near their shade. Period. It means I need bétter, read softer, suspension on the road as I need more band width of warning.
When mine need replacing I have no doubt: OEM KYB.

[Dev]

In regards to the driver, Keiichi Tsuchiya is legendary former professional race car driver with almost 40 years racing experience with both national tiles and has participated in Le Mans and other international events. Tsuchiya is probably one of the most popular Japanese motorsports personalities not only in Japan but also in the JDM tuning world which I don't really care for because he popularized drifting but he has the chops even in his old age of 64.

Orido is impressive level too.

I am relatively good but not near their shade. Period. It means I need bétter, read softer, suspension on the road as I need more band width of warning.
When mine need replacing I have no doubt: OEM KYB.

I believe they are all professional race car drivers and they go all out to the best of their capability but it's usually a very narrow margin between them and thats is why the cars can be compared and commented on but they are certainly not stock. What I do like about the events is they can compare and contrast a cars potential with modifications and tuning. Tsuchiya is in a different class compared to those guys because he is legendary. I was just looking up his credentials and they are amazing. He was a consultant for the development of the GT86 and currently a consultant for Honda tuning.  His Le Mans career isn't too bad either. 

[Dev]

Someone has bought the tein EDFC off EBay, been beaten to it

Wonder if it was someone on this thread and what they paid, the seller offered it to me for £675 after i initially offered £600, even that was too much in my eyes really so didnt go for it at 675.  If it turns out to be in perfect order it was a good buy though.

 I just had a look at them. I would have passed. I seen ones in better condition for less on my side. The only way I would buy a set of any coilovers is if they looked pristine without a salvage history.  Accidents are known to bend rods in the damper. They may work but it will not be optimal and down the road you will have leaking seals. I have had mine since 2005 and although they are not pristine anymore they have faired better then those without any rust.