Driveshafts/Engine removal

[thetyrant]

Ok made a start today getting this smokey engine out, first big job i want to tackle is to get the driveshafts ready to pop out by loosening all rear suspension arms before i squeeze the car into my little garage to start swap proper, this is the only part im bothered about as it doesnt look like they have ever been out and arms bolts are very crusty!

Rear most Toe control arm is no problem as its a hardrace that hasnt been on that long so will come off ok im sure, middle and front/diagonal arms are not going to come easy!....middle arm hasnt long been attached to new subframe by PO so hopefully it will come off that end but doesnt look like it would come off at hub end!

Front/diagonal arm is what i concentrated on today, stripped off rear brakes for better access but couldnt get outer/hub side bolt to move, tried my snap on battery impact gun which has a lot of power but no joy!, moved onto my big mains powered impact gun but nothing! also tried big long bar on socket but no movement its solid!....i gave up for the day and will tackle the inner fitting to car chassis and see if that will come off, if im reading it right on other guides the nut on this one doesn't turn but you need to do the bolt ?, is it just this front/diagonal arm thats like this out of interest ?

If i cant get it off tempted to just sell car cheap for someone else to battle with it!

 

[Ardent]

this has an air of que @Carolyn

[Carolyn]

Actually you only need to get the calipers out of the way, remove the bolt that attaches the trailing arm to the hub and take out the bottom two bolts on the strut. The hubs will now swing away far enough to pop the driveshafts out of the gear box.

Loosen the shaft bearing on the O/S driveshaft and it the driveshaft will slide out of the box.  If you haven't already drained the gearbox, you will now have a smelly mess of gearbox oil on the floor!

You can either knock the N/S shaft out of the gearbox or cut the large band on the inner driveshaft boot and pop the drive shaft apart.  If you do that, tie-wrap a plastic bag round the drive bearings.

I then use a couple of bungie cords to tie the drive shafts out of the way.  As I have a lift, I don't have to drop the cross member. How much you choose to dismantle on the cross member is up to you.

Often, you'll need a cheater bar on the end of a breaker bar to crack the nuts on the hub.  Use a six point impact socket.

I tend not to undo anything that doesn't need to be undone, but it's up to you how you go about it.

Patience!  It's a big job!  Take your time.  There are no prizes for 'quick'.

[thetyrant]

Actually you only need to get the calipers out of the way, remove the bolt that attaches the trailing arm to the hub and take out the bottom two bolts on the strut. The hubs will now swing away far enough to pop the driveshafts out of the gear box.

Loosen the shaft bearing on the O/S driveshaft and it the driveshaft will slide out of the box.  If you haven't already drained the gearbox, you will now have a smelly mess of gearbox oil on the floor!

You can either knock the N/S shaft out of the gearbox or cut the large band on the inner driveshaft boot and pop the drive shaft apart.  If you do that, tie-wrap a plastic bag round the drive bearings.

I then use a couple of bungie cords to tie the drive shafts out of the way.  As I have a lift, I don't have to drop the cross member. How much you choose to dismantle on the cross member is up to you.

Often, you'll need a cheater bar on the end of a breaker bar to crack the nuts on the hub.  Use a six point impact socket.

I tend not to undo anything that doesn't need to be undone, but it's up to you how you go about it.

Patience!  It's a big job!  Take your time.  There are no prizes for 'quick'.

Thanks for the tips all useful info

When you say trailing arm i presume you mean number 4 on below picture ? as in the one that goes at a diagonal towards front of car from hub,  this is the one i tried to get undone off the hub today with no joy going to see if i can get the inner fixing undone instead.

You cannot view this attachment.

[Carolyn]

Actually you only need to get the calipers out of the way, remove the bolt that attaches the trailing arm to the hub and take out the bottom two bolts on the strut. The hubs will now swing away far enough to pop the driveshafts out of the gear box.

Loosen the shaft bearing on the O/S driveshaft and it the driveshaft will slide out of the box.  If you haven't already drained the gearbox, you will now have a smelly mess of gearbox oil on the floor!

You can either knock the N/S shaft out of the gearbox or cut the large band on the inner driveshaft boot and pop the drive shaft apart.  If you do that, tie-wrap a plastic bag round the drive bearings.

I then use a couple of bungie cords to tie the drive shafts out of the way.  As I have a lift, I don't have to drop the cross member. How much you choose to dismantle on the cross member is up to you.

Often, you'll need a cheater bar on the end of a breaker bar to crack the nuts on the hub.  Use a six point impact socket.

I tend not to undo anything that doesn't need to be undone, but it's up to you how you go about it.

Patience!  It's a big job!  Take your time.  There are no prizes for 'quick'.

Thanks for the tips all useful info

When you say trailing arm i presume you mean number 4 on below picture ? as in the one that goes at a diagonal towards front of car from hub,  this is the one i tried to get undone off the hub today with no joy going to see if i can get the inner fixing undone instead.

You cannot view this attachment.

That's the one! Try a bit of scaffold pole over the breaker bar.  You'll crack it.

[thetyrant]

OK cheers, if i cant get that trailing arm off but can get rest disconnected will there be enough room to get shaft out ?  im guessing not due to angle of it!

Im going to split shafts at CV leaving ends in box as would like to inspect and re-grease anyhows so not sure if that makes it easier to get shafts out ?

[Carolyn]

OK cheers, if i cant get that trailing arm off but can get rest disconnected will there be enough room to get shaft out ?  im guessing not due to angle of it!

Im going to split shafts at CV leaving ends in box as would like to inspect and re-grease anyhows so not sure if that makes it easier to get shafts out ?

The trailing arm has to come off to get the hub out of the way.

By all means open up the CV joints, but realise that the O/S shaft will have to come off the bearing mount on the engine to get the gearbox off, so do drain the gearbox.

A bit of fresh graaphite grease in the joints is no bad thing.  I bet the old stuff looks like dirty cream.

[thetyrant]

The trailing arm has to come off to get the hub out of the way.

By all means open up the CV joints, but realise that the O/S shaft will have to come off the bearing mount on the engine to get the gearbox off, so do drain the gearbox.

A bit of fresh graaphite grease in the joints is no bad thing.  I bet the old stuff looks like dirty cream.

Ok need to man up and get this trailing arm off then

I will be draining the gbox before i start and makes sense to regrease the CV's while its apart, like you say im sure it wont be pretty in them!

[Carolyn]

The trailing arm has to come off to get the hub out of the way.

By all means open up the CV joints, but realise that the O/S shaft will have to come off the bearing mount on the engine to get the gearbox off, so do drain the gearbox.

A bit of fresh graaphite grease in the joints is no bad thing.  I bet the old stuff looks like dirty cream.

Ok need to man up and get this trailing arm off then

I will be draining the gbox before i start and makes sense to regrease the CV's while its apart, like you say im sure it wont be pretty in them!

Just the hub end is sufficient.

[thetyrant]

Just the hub end is sufficient.

Im not confident the hub end is going to come off as i gave it a lot of pain yesterday, also sense it might be corroded inside the bush as well so even if i cut/grind nut off i may have some issues getting it apart,  but will give it another go can you confirm the hub end of trailing arm is just a normal nut and bolt ?  not one with locked/fixed nut like on the inner fixing of this arm to car body?

I did get the axle nut de-staked and cracked ok so at least that part is ready to complete

[Carolyn]

Just the hub end is sufficient.

Im not confident the hub end is going to come off as i gave it a lot of pain yesterday, also sense it might be corroded inside the bush as well so even if i cut/grind nut off i may have some issues getting it apart,  but will give it another go can you confirm the hub end of trailing arm is just a normal nut and bolt ?  not one with locked/fixed nut like on the inner fixing of this arm to car body?

I did get the axle nut de-staked and cracked ok so at least that part is ready to complete

You don't need to take the driveshaft out of the hub (unless you want to).  Yes, it's a nut and bolt.  If you can't get it out, then the hub has to come off.  They do sometimes get seized. In which case,the hub needs to be on the bench.  If you can crack the nut a little, get plenty of plus gas in the gap and knock the bolt back and forth.  The more it moves...

[thetyrant]

OK had a quick look again last night, got the inner fixing of trailing arm loosened off so should be able to get arm off...or complete hub off worst case, what was strange ive read a few people say that outer nut on this arm is fixed/locked into bracket on car and you have to rotate the inner bolt end of it which i did, however once it started to come i could then turn the nut as well! is that not normal ?

Car is now squeezed into my little garage ready to get rear up on stands and get cracking on removal, its going to be a squeeze but think its do'able and like the fact i can shut the door on it when needed or ive had enough for the day lol... i was going to do it on my drive for my side access but its not ideal due to slope of it and while i did initially rig up some ramps and things at front to get car more level im paranoid about it getting away on me and also cant just shut the door on it when im done for day.

[Joesson]

@thetyrant
Paranoia/ self preservation is no bad thing.
I've not done what your attempting, but I have drained and refilled the four drive shaft boots with lubricant in situ.
I did that work in my "little garage" but with car front end in and rear end near the door you get some wriggle room with the door open.

[thetyrant]

@thetyrant
Paranoia/ self preservation is no bad thing.
I've not done what your attempting, but I have drained and refilled the four drive shaft boots with lubricant in situ.
I did that work in my "little garage" but with car front end in and rear end near the door you get some wriggle room with the door open.

Yes that's the way i have it with nose in and rear at the door so plenty of room behind car with door open (non with door shut!) , its quite sheltered even with door open so unless very wet and windy i can still work no problem, side access to car is the issue but i can get in at both sides with just enough room to work but a bit cramped, now everything is loosened off hopefully i can do what i need to, once shafts are out everything else should be no problem as its done from back and underneath.

[Joesson]

@thetyrant
Paranoia/ self preservation is no bad thing.
I've not done what your attempting, but I have drained and refilled the four drive shaft boots with lubricant in situ.
I did that work in my "little garage" but with car front end in and rear end near the door you get some wriggle room with the door open.

Yes that's the way i have it with nose in and rear at the door so plenty of room behind car with door open (non with door shut!) , its quite sheltered even with door open so unless very wet and windy i can still work no problem, side access to car is the issue but i can get in at both sides with just enough room to work but a bit cramped, now everything is loosened off hopefully i can do what i need to, once shafts are out everything else should be no problem as its done from back and underneath.

GLWJ

(Good Luck With Job)

[tricky1138]

OK had a quick look again last night, got the inner fixing of trailing arm loosened off so should be able to get arm off...or complete hub off worst case, what was strange ive read a few people say that outer nut on this arm is fixed/locked into bracket on car and you have to rotate the inner bolt end of it which i did, however once it started to come i could then turn the nut as well! is that not normal ?

Car is now squeezed into my little garage ready to get rear up on stands and get cracking on removal, its going to be a squeeze but think its do'able and like the fact i can shut the door on it when needed or ive had enough for the day lol... i was going to do it on my drive for my side access but its not ideal due to slope of it and while i did initially rig up some ramps and things at front to get car more level im paranoid about it getting away on me and also cant just shut the door on it when im done for day.

I've just replaced them (oh and the subframe) and mine were def bolts with nuts at each end of that arm.

And i'm in the same position, nose in with enough room to shut the garage door. Still need a dry calm day as I did try do some work with the door shut and there just isnt enough room to be comfortable!

[thetyrant]

I've just replaced them (oh and the subframe) and mine were def bolts with nuts at each end of that arm.

And i'm in the same position, nose in with enough room to shut the garage door. Still need a dry calm day as I did try do some work with the door shut and there just isnt enough room to be comfortable!

Thanks, so have you had all 3 arms from chassis/crossmember off on each side ?  curious as where these fixed nuts are that ive read about, im sure it supposed to be the chassis end of the front trailing arm but mine arent so wonder if its a different arm ive not tackled yet ?

[tricky1138]

I've just replaced them (oh and the subframe) and mine were def bolts with nuts at each end of that arm.

And i'm in the same position, nose in with enough room to shut the garage door. Still need a dry calm day as I did try do some work with the door shut and there just isnt enough room to be comfortable!

Thanks, so have you had all 3 arms from chassis/crossmember off on each side ?  curious as where these fixed nuts are that ive read about, im sure it supposed to be the chassis end of the front trailing arm but mine arent so wonder if its a different arm ive not tackled yet ?

I've had the 2 arms that go from the crossmember to the hubs off and they are nuts/bolts on both ends of the front one, and nuts onto the ball joints and cam bolts / nuts on the rear one.

The third arm, which is the most forward one that goes under the engine, I didnt remove the chassis end, but the crossmember end is a bolt going into a captive nut. The chassis end does look the same.

[thetyrant]

I've had the 2 arms that go from the crossmember to the hubs off and they are nuts/bolts on both ends of the front one, and nuts onto the ball joints and cam bolts / nuts on the rear one.

The third arm, which is the most forward one that goes under the engine, I didnt remove the chassis end, but the crossmember end is a bolt going into a captive nut. The chassis end does look the same.

Thanks, the 2 arms that go from hub to rear crossmember have been off at crossmember end when PO changed the rear crossmember so i know they will come off ok at that end at least, it is the front trailing arm that goes diagonally  back from car body to hub that ive been battling with and needs to detach to allow hub to swing enough for shaft removal.

According to several guides ive read for clutch change and engine removal etc (including the guide on here quoted below)  they mention about these fixed/captive nuts and a having to turn the bolt not nut, in fact reading it again it says both front/trailing and middle/strut arm have these nuts and on the guide on here and others it imply's they are on car body/crossmember end of arms, but seems thats maybe not the case?, you found the front trailing was captive/fixed nut on hub end of arm but Carolyn suggests otherwise so not sure which is correct or maybe all cars are not same!, it might explain why i couldnt shift the nut on hub end of front trailing arm though!

See below take from "clutch how to" on here on and how i come to conclusion about inner/crossmember end of arm fixings and captive/fixed nuts, would be nice to more clear on this detail for other tackling the jobs wondering like me if nut/bolt and seized with rust or im just trying to turn the wrong end of it which is fixed!, i would normally just try both ways but when fighting rusty bolts its nice to know which way to start on a job like this so can we clear this one up


Step 9 - Undo all nearside suspension arms at the crossmember end

On the front trailing arm and strut arm (the two arms closest to the FRONT of the car you need to turn the bolts. NOT the nuts. You can try to turn the nuts until you're blue in the face. They're designed not to budge.

So which arms and ends of them have these fixed/captive nuts please ? 

[Gaz mr-s]

This may help, or maybe confuse things further...

'captive nut' to me means a nut that doesn't move, - undo the bolt & the nut stays there.
The nuts on my pfl have raised ridges that make indentations in the metal that they mate against.  I assumed they were to stop them loosening. They come off when the bolt is loosened.

[thetyrant]

This may help, or maybe confuse things further...

'captive nut' to me means a nut that doesn't move, - undo the bolt & the nut stays there.
The nuts on my pfl have raised ridges that make indentations in the metal that they mate against.  I assumed they were to stop them loosening. They come off when the bolt is loosened.

Yes Captive may not be the best term to use but ive not see it apart yet to confirm if nut comes off when loose or not, it could be as you say some ident or key etc that just holds nut in place when everything it tight.

Which nut are you talking about with ridges on your car out of interest ?

[m1tch]

I will be dropping/swapping my engine over hopefully in the next couple of months, can I not just disconnect the calipers from the hubs, hubs from the bottom of the suspension, disconnect everything up top in the engine bay and drop the rear subframe with everything attached?

p.s. already started soaking bolts!

[thetyrant]

I will be dropping/swapping my engine over hopefully in the next couple of months, can I not just disconnect the calipers from the hubs, hubs from the bottom of the suspension, disconnect everything up top in the engine bay and drop the rear subframe with everything attached?

p.s. already started soaking bolts!

Yes you can once you get the front trailing arm off from the hub at one end or the other! then rest can be lowered down complete if you wish.

Im not sure how far i will go yet in terms of removing parts, you can as Carolyn says just disconnect the front trailing arm and strut to get shafts out gbox then lower engine and box down without removing much else, i will probably take more parts off due to lack of working space in case i need shuffle things around, we will see.

[m1tch]

I will be dropping/swapping my engine over hopefully in the next couple of months, can I not just disconnect the calipers from the hubs, hubs from the bottom of the suspension, disconnect everything up top in the engine bay and drop the rear subframe with everything attached?

p.s. already started soaking bolts!

Yes you can once you get the front trailing arm off from the hub at one end or the other! then rest can be lowered down complete if you wish.

Im not sure how far i will go yet in terms of removing parts, you can as Carolyn says just disconnect the front trailing arm and strut to get shafts out gbox then lower engine and box down without removing much else, i will probably take more parts off due to lack of working space in case i need shuffle things around, we will see.

Will add it to the list of bolts I need to soak will be taking the wheels off in the next week or so to check over the handbrake etc.

[Captain Vimes]

Following.... I now have my replacement engine and will be doing the same in the near future.

Struggling to understand why the driveshaft needs to come out of the box? Can't you just drop the whole crossmember with hubs, engine, gearbox all together then just swap engine and lift it all back up?

I probably need to go and actually look at the car to realise why that doesn't work...