25hp Dry Nitrous shot, with stock ecu, 1zz engine & injectors

Started by A.Singh, July 22, 2020, 13:40

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A.Singh

Hi people, just registered to the forum. I hope you're well.

So i was thinking if i could get a 25 shot nitrous solenoid and tank, and mount the solenoid so it sprays into the stock intake pipe behind the fuse box, on a stock ecu, engine and injectors.

Info about my car:
After correction of figures* my car dyno'd at 142hp stock (with factory twin Remus TTE exhaust) to 151hp tuned. (Actual figures were 148hp to 157.5hp after tune, but this dyno i beleive reads about 6hp too high, after i cross calibrated with other stock cars at the same dyno)

So why only 25hp shot?
I dont want to be greedy, and is safer for the engine... and the nitrous bottle would last longer

- Why only dry?
I do not want any modifcation or cutting to my fuel lines. And i wanted this setup to be totally removable for road, and then simply bolted on when going for drag strip fun etc... testing track.

- why only inject at the end of the intake pipe? (My opinion of initiative, im not technically trained in this area)
I think the extra O2 (from nitrous) will be easier to read for the stock MAF (when sprayed from intake pipe) & stock ecu being able to adjust the extra fuel to the injectors with less problems...once it finally gets to the MAF. And less chance of the air filter or MAF getting damaged by super cold nitrous, as the nitrous may slightly warm up a bit before the MAF, but the chemical double oxygen density of the nitrous will still be intact. Less risk of running lean and injectors can keep up.

What would i want from this setup?
Going from 151hp to 176hp at a button press would be perfect for me tbh. I only would be looking to use from 5k rpm to 7k rpm.

My mods which took me from 142hp to 151hp:
- Pipercross performance panel filter
- Toyosport manifold
- Malian sports cat
- Bosch super 4 copper core spark plugs (changed from very old iridium from previous owner)
- MAF sensor clean with halfords electrical cleaner spray
- V power fuel (changed from super market fuel on the stock dyno run)
- (car already had twin remus TTE exhaust from factory)

New mods not yet dynod:
- DIY markiii pipe, made from 3" 60 degree ebay pipe, cut to size, fitted with gorilla tape
- airbox lid divider wall delete (try at your own risk, worked well for me tho)

What do the technically minded ppl think, do you think this could be safe to run?

Heres a vid of how my car runs at the moment:
📽 https://streamable.com/afz7j7

Petrus

Have a look at the petrol thread.
Best use 100% petrol, not 5 0r 10% ethanol. Several hp there without other mods. Also the engine/ ECU were designed to run un 100% petrol.

As to the NOS and extra fuel, that is best injected after the MAF.
The engine will have no issues with moderate NOS + fuel.
The installation however does incur extra hazards with the extra fuel lines, the pressurised NOS bottle and blowback of the explosive mixture. All that for a véry moderate power gain at higher revs/full throttle only.
Lastly do make a cost calculation for the NOS use versus power and time.

Do keep us informed about the installation if you decide to go ahead.

Oh and have a search for  the  ultimate intake. The TRD one can be replicated cheaply too.





A.Singh

Thanks I will check your info out about using pure petrol.

The reason a was thinking about placing N2O solinoid before the MAF was:
1. I dont want to use an extra fuel solenoid(wet system) & only want dry system.
2. MAF will sense the extra O2 from the N2O and adjust fuel accordingly, if stock injectors can keep up
3. MAF will sense the super low intake temperature due to the N20, and adjust fuel accordingly (upto the ecu's limitations of course)
4. If a wet kit is simply installed to your car but not in use... and disconnected... no insurance company in the uk will touch your car without swallowing your wallet. Hence i want a removable manual dry nitrous setup.

Yes TRD intake style is awesome, though the stock side pipe is not too bad. As some of the side vent air goes into the engine bay

For sure i will try keep this thread updated if i move forward

m1tch

I would be concerned with a shock of additional torque to the twig like conrods - I looked into this option as well.

A.Singh

Quote from: m1tch on July 22, 2020, 14:57I would be concerned with a shock of additional torque to the twig like conrods - I looked into this option as well.

However, many people have ran 200bhp with turbo on a stock engine no?

Were you looking at a 25 shot of n20? Surely 175bhp can be handled by the engine?

 But 50 & 75 shot, higher the shot the more risk

Also a nitrous solinoid with controller is supposed to spray n2o gradually each time u press the button, so kind of kicks in like a turbo and not an instant wack to the rear of your car. i would assume better for the MAF, ECU and engine

Petrus

Quote from: A.Singh on July 22, 2020, 14:14Thanks I will check your info out about using pure petrol.

The reason a was thinking about placing N2O solinoid before the MAF was:
1. I dont want to use an extra fuel solenoid(wet system) & only want dry system.
2. MAF will sense the extra O2 from the N2O and adjust fuel accordingly, if stock injectors can keep up
3. MAF will sense the super low intake temperature due to the N20, and adjust fuel accordingly (upto the ecu's limitations of course)
4. If a wet kit is simply installed to your car but not in use... and disconnected... no insurance company in the uk will touch your car without swallowing your wallet. Hence i want a removable manual dry nitrous setup.

Yes TRD intake style is awesome, though the stock side pipe is not too bad. As some of the side vent air goes into the engine bay

For sure i will try keep this thread updated if i move forward

Only adding NOx will seriously lean the mixture. The ECU will only compensate for the small drop in temperature, not for the extra oxigen in NOx. It does no measure oxigen, only mass of flow and that will stay the same in your setup. 
Also the crux of the extra power potential in NOx is that extra oxigen which allows extra fuel to be burned thus giving a bigger bang.

Regardless, do some quick end dirty calculations about the rate of NOx use versus the power. Certainly without adding fuel, the gains are marginal. Changing the OEM muffler for a free flow one will net you as much and not only at high revs/ full bore.

Here is my inlet :-)

You cannot view this attachment.

A.Singh

Hmm yea Petrus i was thinking that.
 
However i saw these guys make some good hp gains with a stock 1991 1.6 NA miata, tho with a custom ECU.

Spraying dry shots of n2o directly into their air intake. I think they manually did the equivelant of a 50 shot or more 😂
 
(Watch from 12min)

Oh btw i have Remus / twin TTE exhaust setup.

Awesome TRD style intake 👍

Carolyn

Hi and welcome.

I know quite a bit about N2O.  Enough to know that most people messing with it on cars have no clue what they're doing or just how dodgy it can be. Following the advice of some guys on Youtube is not a great idea.

As someone who has sat in front of four large N2O rocket motors and lit the candle, I have a very healthy respect for the stuff.

Gaseous N2O can explode (let's say 'detonate') when handled incorrectly.

Simply adding N2O without adjusting the fuelling is very hard on an already lean running engine.

I'll not say more...

Perry Byrnes Memorial Award 2016, 2018.  Love this club. 
https://www.mr2roc.org/forum/index.php?topic=63866.0

A.Singh

Quote from: Carolyn on July 22, 2020, 16:25Hi and welcome.

I know quite a bit about N2O.  Enough to know that most people messing with it on cars have no clue what they're doing or just how dodgy it can be. Following the advice of some guys on Youtube is not a great idea.

As someone who has sat in front of four large N2O rocket motors and lit the candle, I have a very healthy respect for the stuff.

Gaseous N2O can explode (let's say 'detonate') when handled incorrectly.

Simply adding N2O without adjusting the fuelling is very hard on an already lean running engine.

I'll not say more...



Thanks for the information. Will deffo keep in mind. Though I cant see where I mentioned that im "following advice from guys on youtube". Just simply sharing an interesting video for inquisitive minds.

Topdownman

The only member that I am aware of with a nos setup is @chalced but I don't think he has used it for a while but he may be able to share his experience.

Not sure how much this will cost but there is a thread about an electric turbo that may give similar results? Probably going cost a lot more but may be safer?
"Racing" tax disc holder (binned), Poundland air freshener, (ran out), Annoying cylinder deficiency,  (sorted),
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A.Singh

Yea Torq Amp are doing really well with creation of their electric turbo

Still much pricier though

It took a 1993 2.0 NA Honda prelude from 125Whp to 160 Whp

Torque from 200Nm to 260Nm

https://torqamp.com/use-cases/

jonbill

the youtube guy's custom ECU is going to be a big part of what they're doing. It will be adding fuel when the nitrous is triggered, through a specific signal.
you can't do that with the Toyota ECU.

A.Singh

Quote from: jonbill on July 22, 2020, 17:35the youtube guy's custom ECU is going to be a big part of what they're doing. It will be adding fuel when the nitrous is triggered, through a specific signal.
you can't do that with the Toyota ECU.


Hmm does this possibly mean that going to an after market ECU and a dry nitrous setup could be the PERFECT setup for good gains in power without too much work and £££s? 😯🤔 Hmm

thetyrant

By all means try it but you will soon find out cheap HP is not reliable, if you watch more of the miata vids you linked you will see it didnt last long either :)

NOS has its place and its not in a stock engine/ecu MR2 roadster imo, im sure with an aftermarket ECU you could get it working ok but thats going to cost you a fair few £££ in hardware and mapping so is it really worth it?, better off saving up for a turbo if you want more power, or 2zz swap if you like to rev the car hard :D
Ex-2005 roadster  owner, i will be back :D

Call the midlife!

You need an Emanage Blue, complete with laptop and all the harnesses to run that system, that'll sort it...👍🏻
60% of the time it works everytime...

Petrus

Quote from: A.Singh on July 22, 2020, 16:14Oh btw i have Remus / twin TTE exhaust setup.



Well, that sure soúnds and looks good but flow wise... arguably less than OEM.

The bottom line is that ánything you do with the n.a. engine is marginal. Ok, you can faff with the OEM inlet and find a pair of horses, do the MAF mod and find some more, réally free up the exhaust and gain a dozen but even if you get the max result with all it still is 20 hp. máx if you are lucky.

If you want the car to be réally faster than supercharging or an engine swap are the two options.
Short of that, best be content with the sub 20 horses and for the rest lighten up. Literally :-)
Have a look at the weight savings to be made. The bonus of that is that it is quicker through the corners and stops shorter.

Petrus

Quote from: Topdownman on July 22, 2020, 17:00Not sure how much this will cost but there is a thread about an electric turbo that may give similar results? Probably going cost a lot more but may be safer?

The snag being the need of at least a piggy back ECU.
Also this system needs some pretty trick additional tweaking to work smoothly all through the rev range.

A.Singh

Quote from: Petrus on July 22, 2020, 18:45
Quote from: A.Singh on July 22, 2020, 16:14Oh btw i have Remus / twin TTE exhaust setup.



Well, that sure soúnds and looks good but flow wise... arguably less than OEM.

The bottom line is that ánything you do with the n.a. engine is marginal. Ok, you can faff with the OEM inlet and find a pair of horses, do the MAF mod and find some more, réally free up the exhaust and gain a dozen but even if you get the max result with all it still is 20 hp. máx if you are lucky.

If you want the car to be réally faster than supercharging or an engine swap are the two options.
Short of that, best be content with the sub 20 horses and for the rest lighten up. Literally :-)
Have a look at the weight savings to be made. The bonus of that is that it is quicker through the corners and stops shorter.


Even a 15hp gain from stock is not too bad. A have a facelift mr2 which probably weighs about 1000kg

Correct weight reduction directly makes you faster due to power weight ratio.

But yea... If one can take a stock facelift from say 140hp to 155hp, that is Not bad tbh! 😊

Let me explain:

155hp car power ÷ by 1000kg car weight.
= 155bhp per ton

Say a stock civic type r ep3 (one of the best FF cars ever made imo) which has the k20 which obvs  packs a punch!

200bhp ÷ 1200kg weight =
164bhp per ton

So a tuned mr2 wouldnt be tooo far behind on the straights! Then like you said... add in shorter braking distance and faster cornering speeds & agility... then on a technical track the gap wouldnt be that much!

Hmm maybe if only there were wet nitrous kits that have their own seperate fuel containers? For the fuek solenoids. But then that would be a fire hazard i guess... Wizards of nitrous kits are proven to work with many stock cars, but im just not a fan of having the fuel lines permanent cut into... but that would for sure work with stock engine and ecu

jvanzyl

Hello and welcome.
Is great that you're keen to try out nitrous- a lot of us have been down that route in terms of calculation and 99% have chosen not to proceed.
I think what most of the contributors here are doing is trying to help you avoid what most honestly reckon is a waste of time.

My advice is to do the cost calculation in terms of finance and reliability and then save your cash to get there. I look forward to seeing what you choose to do and hopefully upload some pics?

A.Singh

I dont think il do it like i originally posted

The only option i will think about tho in future... is aftermarket remapped ecu (which increases performance overall without n2o anyway) and then a dry bolt on nitrous kit, which i can use alongside a 2nd ecu map tuned to 25 shot n2o, which which run the engine rich enough for when injecting n2o

Ardent

@A.Singh

As per @jvanzyl post and your own that follows, I'm sure you can see a theme emerging.

We all want what is best for you and your 2. The nitro is way down the list.
We love your enthusiasm and will support it where we can.
You have impressive numbers already and a credit to you having got where you have.
But take a breath and let us know what really floats your boat.
What makes you fizz?
I am a torque junkie and went the turbo route.
There are those that love an 8600rpm screaming 2ZZ banshee. I love to hear one on song, but I don't want one.
There are K20 swaps, V6 options, V6 with rotrex superchargers. 4 bangers with superchargers. The last 2 are work in progress. But the nitro route....

And then there is the @Petrus (colin chapman) route of adding lightness.
Which works all the time and is comparatively cheap/free to achieve.

What is it your really want?

Going a bit left field. You could do nothing other than a refresh of the brakes and suspension and simply enjoy it for what it is. I say refresh NOT upgrade on purpose.
These simple little cars give so much joy in the twistys it cannot be measured.
Yes you will get slaughtered in many types of drag race. But on its home turf in the B road twistys, you will be all over other (read expensive) stuff like a rash. I challenge anything to offer so much for so little.

Petrus

Quote from: A.Singh on July 22, 2020, 20:55A have a facelift mr2 which probably weighs about 1000kg


Best put it on the weighbridge and be prepared for a reality check.

shnazzle

Quote from: Petrus on July 23, 2020, 00:02
Quote from: A.Singh on July 22, 2020, 20:55A have a facelift mr2 which probably weighs about 1000kg


Best put it on the weighbridge and be prepared for a reality check.

@jvanzyl actually told me the kerb weights for facelift and pre-facelift thr other week.

No surprise the facelift is quite a bit heavier and definitely over 1000,excluding driver and only half a tnak fuel I believe. 
You'll likely be lucky to see any change for a 1200 kg guess.
...neutiquam erro.

A.Singh

Quote from: Ardent on July 22, 2020, 23:56@A.Singh

As per @jvanzyl post and your own that follows, I'm sure you can see a theme emerging.

We all want what is best for you and your 2. The nitro is way down the list.
We love your enthusiasm and will support it where we can.
You have impressive numbers already and a credit to you having got where you have.
But take a breath and let us know what really floats your boat.
What makes you fizz?
I am a torque junkie and went the turbo route.
There are those that love an 8600rpm screaming 2ZZ banshee. I love to hear one on song, but I don't want one.
There are K20 swaps, V6 options, V6 with rotrex superchargers. 4 bangers with superchargers. The last 2 are work in progress. But the nitro route....

And then there is the @Petrus (colin chapman) route of adding lightness.
Which works all the time and is comparatively cheap/free to achieve.

What is it your really want?

Going a bit left field. You could do nothing other than a refresh of the brakes and suspension and simply enjoy it for what it is. I say refresh NOT upgrade on purpose.
These simple little cars give so much joy in the twistys it cannot be measured.
Yes you will get slaughtered in many types of drag race. But on its home turf in the B road twistys, you will be all over other (read expensive) stuff like a rash. I challenge anything to offer so much for so little.

Tbh my friend i would love to try nitrous, and dont mind being the minority that does. I always love to follow my own path and see where it takes me, but with a proper setup of course,  stock ecu just wont cut it as many have explained, unless i go wet kit (which i wont)

Another plus is, after going to the custom remap ecu & nitrous route

When one gets bored of that, is much easier to upgrade to a turbo 1zz as youve already got the remappable aftermarket ecu for the turbo

Ardent

I look forward to the updates of your progress along your chosen path.

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