2GR Engine swap with EB60 gearbox = no cutting rear subrame build video!

[J88TEO]

Interesting!!!!
With about 300 horses behind this would smoke quite a few BMW, Audi and Golf drivers :-)

[Marc]

Interesting!!!!
With about 300 horses behind this would smoke quite a few BMW, Audi and Golf drivers :-)

Yes, I 100% agree with this. If i'm honest i'm doing this swap to bring publicity to my 2AR-FE swap parts. That motor weighs less, fits better, costs less and is way easier to swap and gives 205whp which is a great power for a car that weighs less than one ton. In fact that's what i run in my race car and it's an absolute riot to drive and pulls away from just about everything i run into on the track.

But I've had the kit available for a few years now and i'm just absolutely struggling to get the word out about it. The problem is many people want a reasonable and reliable car but a reasonable and reliable car does not really drive an exciting discussion in the crowd so very few people have even heard about it as a result.

The people that do find out about my parts often just end up asking me about the 2GR instead. In fact, of the 5 kits I've sold so far, two of them were purchased with the intend of using them for a 2GR instead of a 2AR and one i never talked to the guy so maybe even three of them were purchased with that intent.

So once i got the pictures back from the one guy showing just how lucky i got with the fitment and it really was luck because that trans position was never designed for the 2GR instalation. I knew the trans would bolt to it but that did not matter.

Add a bit more thought to that and realize that any V6 installation absolutely requires cutting the access panel anyways, the fact that my kit requires that access panel really isn't a detriment to it's marketability so i figured i'd go ahead and use my new found tiny bit of an audience on youtube and make a v6 spyder build, i'm only going to have about $2500 wrapped up in it anyways to drive a bunch of excitement about my parts and if i make a right side engine mount at a minimum the rest of the install suddenly becomes doable for people with a lot less fabrication skill than before.

What i did not account for was just how much publicity it would drive, i only put out the first video so far and it's about tripled the traffic to my channel. Essentially giving me the crowd excitement that is needed to actually result in people knowing about both the 2GR as well as the 2AR option i make available for this car.

So i'm excited, I'll get that motor mount done and see what that does for sales, i can certainly bring more and more support for the swap if the people are actually buying parts.

Which brings us back to your point, 340hp in an MR2 Spyder is about 6.75lbs/hp. That isn't the fastest car on the road but it isn't far. It's more or less the same power to weight as a Charger Hellcat (not the demon version, the *plain* 707hp version). With the stock suspension and brakes on this thing it genuinely is a bit sketchy

But "too much" is just enough in this crowd so here I am

And after all, I've been supporting the 2GR for 12 years now in the MKII. I'm at the point where someone can give my symptoms and i can tell them exactly which wire they have a short/open in. May as well leverage that knowledge for the MKIII Spyder also.

[shnazzle]

I might have to add a "Double Applause" button for that post. 
Welcome @Marc and I hope the news spreads hard and fast and we can rid of these pesky 2zz conversions hahahs

[Marc]

I'm aiming more at the K conversions and it's not so much that i'm against Honda, it's just that i see people constantly having quality issues with the parts and i hate seeing car builds end in a car that get scrapped.

I want everyone that wants to do an engine swap to be able to do a successful engine swap and have it only take a few weeks or months at most, not years.

The 2ZZ swap was great when the motors were cheap, these days they are pricey and they usually need gone through. I don't think that swap will need any help for people to move past it.

I need to add the 2GR to this graph but here's something i composited together from three dyno graphs of roughly equivalent engine configurations (intake, exhaust and tune, no internals)


Plus i think i'll be able to do something about that roll off at the top soon enough

[Marc]

Sorry, i was being lazy, here's a quick compositing of the dynos, adding the 2GR

[jvanzyl]

Don't think anyone could ascribe the characteric "lazy" to you Marc.

But yeah I want the green line one sir..

In all our emails Marc, I don't think I ever asked or maybe I did but failed to understand your answer to the question about what would happen if you took the engine out of one of the many many hybrids and installed it with your kit  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_AR_engine (ecu, imported the gearbox etc).. I read about how they have different combustion cycles etc and assumed that unless it was a stock 2AR-FE it wouldn't behave properly with your ECU, am I completely wrong? There's loads of the FSE/FXE versions about.. it's that pesky gearbox that is the hard thing to find.

[J88TEO]

The EB60 gearbox was fitted to the Avensis from 2009-2012 (Petrol verson). There is one on ebay at the mo.

[Jay]

Just a quick thank you Marc for providing quite a lot of information in so few posts.  I haven't seen anyone sum it all up like that before.  Really giving me bad ideas now.

Serious amount to think about.

[J88TEO]

Take the plunge!
I am about to put together my finances.....baby or no baby!

[jvanzyl]

The EB60 gearbox was fitted to the Avensis from 2009-2012 (Petrol verson). There is one on ebay at the mo.

really?? I need to look into that, there's tons of Avensis' out there.. that would massively help things along.

EDIT: So using the below link:
https://www.proxyparts.com/wiki/gearbox-codes/make/toyota/model/avensis/

it doesn't list the EB60 as a gearbox ever used by the avensis?

EDIT NUMBER 2: hold the phone.. further googling going via wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_E_transmission#EB60
shows that it was on the 3ZR-FAE avensis engine...  so.. there might be hope yet.

[jvanzyl]

@J88TEO yeah you're totally right - it did come on the Avensis then. I just struggle with the £2k price tag currently sat on them! It's likely a case of watching co-part and european car sites till one in a reasonable price range comes up.

[Marc]

{...}I want the green line one sir..

Absolutely, a car is a very personal thing and many people want excessive power and it's why i'm doing this video series in the first place. Just please be responsible with the power and don't off yourself.

In all our emails Marc, I don't think I ever asked or maybe I did but failed to understand your answer to the question about what would happen if you took the engine out of one of the many many hybrids and installed it with your kit  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_AR_engine (ecu, imported the gearbox etc).. I read about how they have different combustion cycles etc and assumed that unless it was a stock 2AR-FE it wouldn't behave properly with your ECU, am I completely wrong? There's loads of the FSE/FXE versions about.. it's that pesky gearbox that is the hard thing to find.

I want to preface this by saying i've never actually touched the FSE and FXE engines but here's what i know...

Somehow the FXE looks like it'll actually bolt in with my mount. This is kinda rare for Toyota so this is a pretty awesome thing.

Next, these engines are both different enough that you'd be on your own for the ECU, i'm fairly certain that my 2AR-FE ECU would not handle it.

then, if we look at the front of the FXE we see it looks like it enhances part throttle efficiency with a cooled EGR system:


It does this by adding that heat exchanger as well as having a different water pump. Best i can tell the normal water pump would bolt to there so you could toss the EGR cooler and regain the space needed to fit the exhaust in the tight engine bay space. It's probable that you could still fit an exhaust in there but likely not the one i make available for a straight bolt-on.


next, around the other side of the FXE engine you can see that it has fixed length runners. I've never dyno'd these but based on their length that looks slightly shorter than the long path on the -FE but much longer than the short path on the -FE it would likely have a peak torque slightly later but then flatten much out earlier. this intake would probably make the motor feel "hollow" at the top. But with that said, it's possible it actually helps power, now that i just noticed this exists i will see what i can do about dyno testing with that intake at some point.

The -FSE engine is just a non starter, the engine might as well be a completely different engine, it's a longitudinal mounted engine with a completely different outside shape.


or is there a transverse mount version of the -FSE engine? i'm having a hard time pulling up much on that engine.

{...}Really giving me bad ideas now.

Serious amount to think about.

I strongly suggest you look at the 2AR video series and read the post about the 2GR here: https://www.mr2-spyder.com/community/engine-swaps/2gr-fe-swap-using-frankenstein-motorworks-2ar-fe-swap-kit-parts/

If you're still not sure, wait for the video series on the 2GR to be far enough along for you to know what you're getting into first.

The 2GR swap will require a bit of DIY fabrication, there's no way around it and last thing i want is someone to start a project that they cannot finish. An MR2 that is roadworthy with a 1zz is a million times better than a MR2 with a half finished 2GR swap.

Take the plunge!
I am about to put together my finances.....baby or no baby!

I finished this build just a little less than 9 years ago and my oldest is just a little older than 9yrs old: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe5A4kt04Dc some people can get stuff done with a new baby, some can't. It's all up to the baby really.

The EB60 gearbox was fitted to the Avensis from 2009-2012 (Petrol verson). There is one on ebay at the mo.

really?? I need to look into that{...} hold the phone.. {...} {Wikipedia} shows that it was on the 3ZR-FAE avensis engine...  so.. there might be hope yet.

So i've got a customer in Australia right now that unfortunately did this discovery the hard way. the 3ZR-FAE version uses a different bellhousing bolt pattern. The bellhousing is interchangable though so you can replace it with part number 31105-33041   and make it work. Just make sure you budget the $750 that the replacement bellhousing will cost. As long as i can ship it in a regular package i'm happy to help my international customers by supplying things like that along with their order. A whole transmission unfortunately needs to go freight.

[J88TEO]

So i've got a customer in Australia right now that unfortunately did this discovery the hard way. the 3ZR-FAE version uses a different bellhousing bolt pattern

So from which engine/gearbox combo are you using the EB60?

[jvanzyl]

So i've got a customer in Australia right now that unfortunately did this discovery the hard way. the 3ZR-FAE version uses a different bellhousing bolt pattern

So from which engine/gearbox combo are you using the EB60?

Scion Tc I think.. so we're back to the original thing of importing from the US. Good old full circle

[jvanzyl]

@Marc thank you SO much for explaining in such detail the differences between the FXE & the FSE.. that's a massive help.

So to date, it looks like over here we'd theoretically have the 2AR-FXE and the 8AR-FTS as being "compatible" but both would likely (at this point in time) require custom ECU.. and both of which would require the EB60 gearbox to be sourced from wherever possible. Good to know!

[J88TEO]

Scion Tc I think.. so we're back to the original thing of importing from the US. Good old full circle
[/quote]
Back to square 1! :-(

[jvanzyl]

Scion Tc I think.. so we're back to the original thing of importing from the US. Good old full circle

Back to square 1! :-(
[/quote]

True in this respect, BUT we've got 3 new engine conversions that we understand a bit more about so that's a real positive

[pistol pete]

fabulous reading here thanks.
I have a 2zz sprint car.. I really want to make it a 2gr one day!

[J88TEO]

I really want to make it a 2gr one day!
That's the plan .... I bought a CAT D Sabre Grey 2005 for peanuts a few months ago.....and has been thinking of swapping the engine....

[Marc]

So from which engine/gearbox combo are you using the EB60?

I'm using the EB60 from the 2011+ Scion tC. I've also used the very rare EB62 from the 2010-2011 Camry but you need to swap in the EB60 shift levers to use it.

So to date, it looks like over here we'd theoretically have the 2AR-FXE and the 8AR-FTS as being "compatible" but both would likely (at this point in time) require custom ECU.. and both of which would require the EB60 gearbox to be sourced from wherever possible. Good to know!

The 8AR-FTS is one i'd like to explore. The right side motor mount would be different there but i think there's a good chance the turbo will fit in the engine bay without modifications. Mainly i'm waiting for them to get cheap enough before exploring it.

So there's an awful lot of comments about importing transmissions. Based on the Events List sub forum it looks like this may be a UK centric forum? is that where a lot of people here are from?

[jvanzyl]

Yup pretty much well most of us bar 5? are in the UK.
Hence as you say much talk of importing etc

I've found that the camrys over in Dubai/ Bahrain (copart) will supply us with the 2ar plus EB60 but, importing etc is another hurdle to figure out.

[Marc]

Ok, i guess that explains it then. I'm happy to ship over missing parts and whatnot with a parts order if you guys find an engine & trans. So feel free to ask. Unfortunately without a freight account it gets impossibly expensive and you can't get an account without volume so i can't help you guys out on the initial acquisition.

The flip side is you guys have a plentiful supply of cheap EA60 transmissions. That thing is bulletproof but unfortunately it's heavy and large and unavailable at any reasonable price to anywhere else in the world so it's a tough ask to make a kit with it at it's base. The EA60 is a better choice for the MKII than the MKIII because of it's size.

If i search for the EA60 bellhousing in the global parts catalog it returns these cars:
08/2010-06/2016   TOYOTA ZELAS
10/2011-09/2017   TOYOTA AURION, CAMRY, HV   
12/2012-11/2018   TOYOTA RAV4

But i don't have a good way to see if those are local to you guys. someone else will have to answer that.

If i look for the differential case, a part that isn't nearly as likely to change from application to application it does show some Europe matches as opposed to just "worldwide" but unfortunately they are the 3ZR-FAE applications mentioned earlier. the Avensis and the Rav4.

The Avensis even has the 4.058 final drive instead of the 4.6 from the rav4 which is a bit short for daily driving on MR2 sized tires.

Depending on the price of that trans it might still be a very valid way to go. If you can get it for under $450 you could still buy the new $750 bellhousing and end up at the same price we have to pay for the Scion tC trans here in the USA.

Also, someone should call a local dealer and see if you can order 31105-33041. that's the bellhousing, since it's a "general" category part you can likely order it from anywhere in the world. It should not be tied to a region. Your local price may even be better.

Then you just need to chase down a cheap RX350 for the 2GR-FE or take a look at the ES250 or ES300H you have locally, in some locales it has the 2AR-FE, not the FXE.

[jvanzyl]

@Marc
So when looking for car with the EA60 there seems to be a bit of a divergence of information.
You end up old wiki and it tells you that there are two variants of the EA60 transmission - both for the Evora and they come in a sport and normal flavour:

You cannot view this attachment.

However using a site like Proxy parts and searching via the gearbox code of EA60, you end up with the following:
https://www.proxyparts.com/car-parts-stock/result/gearbox-code/ea60/part/gearbox/

whereupon you end up with an "EA60" gearbox for a Toyota auris 2.2L Diesel.. surely this would have decent ratios for the MR2? You're basically looking for gearboxes attached to the 2AD-FHV engine which has some serious torque (180 bhp &  295lb torque)

Here's a good pic of one for sale on ebay when searching for the Auris 2.2D manual diesel gearbox
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-TOYOTA-AURIS-2-2-D-CAT-DIESEL-6-SPEED-MANUAL-GEARBOX-GEAR-BOX-43K-MILES/303108054211?hash=item4692a5dcc3:g:9QoAAOSwpXZcmhWA

Does that bell housing work? it's be awesome if it did.. that's like £300!
Apologies if this is the wrong way to go about this..

[jvanzyl]

Had a look at the Toyodiy catalogue and it would "appear" that even this one cites the 2AD-FHV engine which came in the lexus, avensis and the auris as having the EA60 gearbox...

https://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_E_2005_TOYOTA_AVENSIS_ADT251R-AEFEYW_3302.html

but as before, it'll come down to matching the bell housing..

When I search for that part number you gave earlier it doesn't list a european model... it appears to only be found in the US models as per the below:
https://www.toyodiy.com/parts/xref?v=E_2005_TOYOTA_AVENSIS_ADT251R-AEFEYW_3302&s=31105-33041&mU=on&mE=on

[Marc]

Yes, the EA60 is the Evora transmission and it's also what goes in your Avensis diesel. it's the exact same transmission...

But there's a rub. There always is. Let me dig through my back catalog of automotive debauchery and here we are:



The starter on the EA60 is not actually compatible with the 2GR-FE and the 2AR-FE. lotus machines the transmission case to put a hole there and then they add a 1" thick spacer between the trans and engine with an adapter to bolt on a starter in the newly created hole.

the bolt pattern does match, they aren't using an adapter, just a spacer. and that spacer makes the drivetrain too wide for the MKII, not sure about the MKIII but i can't imagine it would fit any better in there so you have to weld a new starter boss on the EA60 to use it.

take a look at one one of the early evora promo pictures:


That hole makes the transmission price go from $200 to $3000