Sports cats

[Call the midlife!]

I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned on another thread, we've been going round in circles for a week or so on a couple of exhaust threads.
But you're quite right..

What some of you fail to inform about is the fact that Zero has a larger diameter tubing than the cheapo ebay stuff, so if you want a proper race cat you also need a proper header. Go Zero.
 

[shnazzle]

What some of you fail to inform about is the fact that Zero has a larger diameter tubing than the cheapo ebay stuff, so if you want a proper race cat you also need a proper header. Go Zero.

Only so many times you can write the same info about one product haha.

But yes, bigger pipes. Which may not give you what you're after. It's more aimed at higher hp figures. It actually feels less torquey at low rpm with a Zero if you ask me.

But paired with a sports cat, it's like an asthmatic suddenly being able to breathe freely. With a better backbox as well you're really laughing.

[1979scotte]

What are people's thoughts on sports cats?

I can't find too many posts/threads from people who have sports cats fitted.

If anyone has experience to share about:
- passing MOT / engine light
- sound
- performance

It would be great to hear!

Thanks

Zero cat should met Euro 4  standards (this what docs for Magnaflow cat says) for MR2 n/a.

High flow cat is louder, especialy if you connect it with Zero mainfold and TTE backbox. For me to loudy for longer journeys. That's why I'm waiting for Zero backbox.  But if You like loudy cars go for it. Sounds awsome.

For full performance benefits You need to replace mainfold and backbox. But it is worth, around 155hp is expected.  

Without some form of ecu I doubt you'd see 15+bhp.
Always very sceptical of NA tuning figures.

[Call the midlife!]

What are people's thoughts on sports cats?

I can't find too many posts/threads from people who have sports cats fitted.

If anyone has experience to share about:
- passing MOT / engine light
- sound
- performance

It would be great to hear!

Thanks

Zero cat should met Euro 4  standards (this what docs for Magnaflow cat says) for MR2 n/a.

High flow cat is louder, especialy if you connect it with Zero mainfold and TTE backbox. For me to loudy for longer journeys. That's why I'm waiting for Zero backbox.  But if You like loudy cars go for it. Sounds awsome.

For full performance benefits You need to replace mainfold and backbox. But it is worth, around 155hp is expected.  

Without some form of ecu I doubt you'd see 15+bhp.
Always very sceptical of NA tuning figures.

155 with a 15 increase is also making the assumption you're starting with 140 in the first place, ignoring the book value of 138.

With the last cars being 14 years old even those probably won't be making the original, factory power and the ones that have the best, proven dyno results were all fairly young cars at the time or had other tweaks along the way.
Without a doubt, freeing up the exhaust system will give gains but you've got to take into account where you're starting from.

[Petrus]

155 with a 15 increase is also making the assumption you're starting with 140 in the first place, ignoring the book value of 138.

Make it 150 or 148 or whatever.

Point is that a good flowing exhaust frees up some extra 10% of the horses it has. Nothing to be sneeezed at. More so because it is basically for free. It is not burning any more gasoline; just energy otherwise used up to push the gasses out.
Thermally the engine will run cóóler even and the engine room temp will go down markedly! Almost beyond belief: My unwrapped noisy bugger with OEM heat shields per example: Pushing it to 80% an more of the limits over the backroads of Extramadura; 38 degrees C. in the shade, over 50 tarmac, averaging close to 100km/h, the black heat shield over the muffler was still not to hot to touch when stopping for lunch.

Back to the manifold, a larger diameter is not neccessarily a good thing for road use. Nor is imo wrapping but hey that is a lost cause.

[Call the midlife!]

155 with a 15 increase is also making the assumption you're starting with 140 in the first place, ignoring the book value of 138.

Make it 150 or 148 or whatever.

Point is that a good flowing exhaust frees up some extra 10% of the horses it has. Nothing to be sneeezed at. More so because it is basically for free. It is not burning any more gasoline; just energy otherwise used up to push the gasses out.
Thermally the engine will run cóóler even and the engine room temp will go down markedly! Almost beyond belief: My unwrapped noisy bugger with OEM heat shields per example: Pushing it to 80% an more of the limits over the backroads of Extramadura; 38 degrees C. in the shade, over 50 tarmac, averaging close to 100km/h, the black heat shield over the muffler was still not to hot to touch when stopping for lunch.

Back to the manifold, a larger diameter is not neccessarily a good thing for road use. Nor is imo wrapping but hey that is a lost cause.

As I said, gains over standard but quoting expected bhp can be misleading to the casual reader or those less experienced.

Spending the sums of money involved on the basis you're expecting 155bhp will most likely only lead to disappointment.
On a tired old engine and drivetrain  that's potentially already down to 125/130bhp your 10% is bringing it back to around stock power, or just a few ponies more.
Which isn't to be sniffed at but bears considering before making the investment.

[Petrus]

155 with a 15 increase is also making the assumption you're starting with 140 in the first place, ignoring the book value of 138.

Make it 150 or 148 or whatever.

Point is that a good flowing exhaust frees up some extra 10% of the horses it has. Nothing to be sneeezed at. More so because it is basically for free. It is not burning any more gasoline; just energy otherwise used up to push the gasses out.
Thermally the engine will run cóóler even and the engine room temp will go down markedly! Almost beyond belief: My unwrapped noisy bugger with OEM heat shields per example: Pushing it to 80% an more of the limits over the backroads of Extramadura; 38 degrees C. in the shade, over 50 tarmac, averaging close to 100km/h, the black heat shield over the muffler was still not to hot to touch when stopping for lunch.

Back to the manifold, a larger diameter is not neccessarily a good thing for road use. Nor is imo wrapping but hey that is a lost cause.

As I said, gains over standard but quoting expected bhp can be misleading to the casual reader or those less experienced.

Spending the sums of money involved on the basis you're expecting 155bhp will most likely only lead to disappointment.
On a tired old engine and drivetrain  that's potentially already down to 125/130bhp your 10% is bringing it back to around stock power, or just a few ponies more.
Which isn't to be sniffed at but bears considering before making the investment.

I don´t see the implication. It will be a roughly 10% increase in performance anywhichway. The actual numbers are meaningless anyway.
Remember that not even all horses are the same. That ranges from SAE and DIN to different types of tests benches, even individual dynos!

The réal implication is that expectations should not be about numbers but about relative performance increase.
Improving the flow of the exhaust is a win regardless. It reduces pump losses and reduces thermal stresses. It will be a noticeable improvement of about 10% be it from 128 to 140, 138 to 152 horses or 140 to 154.

[Call the midlife!]

155 with a 15 increase is also making the assumption you're starting with 140 in the first place, ignoring the book value of 138.

Make it 150 or 148 or whatever.

Point is that a good flowing exhaust frees up some extra 10% of the horses it has. Nothing to be sneeezed at. More so because it is basically for free. It is not burning any more gasoline; just energy otherwise used up to push the gasses out.
Thermally the engine will run cóóler even and the engine room temp will go down markedly! Almost beyond belief: My unwrapped noisy bugger with OEM heat shields per example: Pushing it to 80% an more of the limits over the backroads of Extramadura; 38 degrees C. in the shade, over 50 tarmac, averaging close to 100km/h, the black heat shield over the muffler was still not to hot to touch when stopping for lunch.

Back to the manifold, a larger diameter is not neccessarily a good thing for road use. Nor is imo wrapping but hey that is a lost cause.

As I said, gains over standard but quoting expected bhp can be misleading to the casual reader or those less experienced.

Spending the sums of money involved on the basis you're expecting 155bhp will most likely only lead to disappointment.
On a tired old engine and drivetrain  that's potentially already down to 125/130bhp your 10% is bringing it back to around stock power, or just a few ponies more.
Which isn't to be sniffed at but bears considering before making the investment.

I don´t see the implication. It will be a roughly 10% increase in performance anywhichway. The actual numbers are meaningless anyway.
Remember that not even all horses are the same. That ranges from SAE and DIN to different types of tests benches, even individual dynos!

The réal implication is that expectations should not be about numbers but about relative performance increase.
Improving the flow of the exhaust is a win regardless. It reduces pump losses and reduces thermal stresses. It will be a noticeable improvement of about 10% be it from 128 to 140, 138 to 152 horses or 140 to 154.

Yes, it wasn't your 10% I was doubting, gains are gains. It's the sweeping statements from other posters on here and elsewhere that suggest a given max hp just from bolt ons that should be taken with a pinch of salt.

[Petrus]

Yes, it wasn't your 10% I was doubting, gains are gains. It's the sweeping statements from other posters on here and elsewhere that suggest a given max hp just from bolt ons that should be taken with a pinch of salt.

To be clear, I too was not really adressing YoÚ; it was clear that you have it on your retina ;-)

Take my car.
I don´t know how much horses it would have given on which dyno.
I dó know the weight it gave on certified scales but that is not the topic.
Back to the horses, the MAF mod and ´noisy buggah´exhaust system have resp. added some horses and reduced horses doing counterproductive work; say a few horses extra and 10% less loss. It is irrelevant; the real world difference is that the thing is quicker; 10%, 12% or??
Heck, tanking Euro95 or BP ultimate 98 is 5 to 10% difference too!

Even though I know the weight quite accurately and as an objectively correct number, the real world consequences are a lot softer because of the real world variables; the amount of fuel in the tank, the amount of crap stowed behind the seats, passenger or not; even whích passenger. The crux of the added lightness is that overall it is that much lighter thus quicker, more nimble.

[SV-3]

155 with a 15 increase is also making the assumption you're starting with 140 in the first place, ignoring the book value of 138.

Make it 150 or 148 or whatever.

Point is that a good flowing exhaust frees up some extra 10% of the horses it has. Nothing to be sneeezed at. More so because it is basically for free. It is not burning any more gasoline; just energy otherwise used up to push the gasses out.
Thermally the engine will run cóóler even and the engine room temp will go down markedly! Almost beyond belief: My unwrapped noisy bugger with OEM heat shields per example: Pushing it to 80% an more of the limits over the backroads of Extramadura; 38 degrees C. in the shade, over 50 tarmac, averaging close to 100km/h, the black heat shield over the muffler was still not to hot to touch when stopping for lunch.

Back to the manifold, a larger diameter is not neccessarily a good thing for road use. Nor is imo wrapping but hey that is a lost cause.

As I said, gains over standard but quoting expected bhp can be misleading to the casual reader or those less experienced.

Spending the sums of money involved on the basis you're expecting 155bhp will most likely only lead to disappointment.
On a tired old engine and drivetrain  that's potentially already down to 125/130bhp your 10% is bringing it back to around stock power, or just a few ponies more.
Which isn't to be sniffed at but bears considering before making the investment.

I don´t see the implication. It will be a roughly 10% increase in performance anywhichway. The actual numbers are meaningless anyway.
Remember that not even all horses are the same. That ranges from SAE and DIN to different types of tests benches, even individual dynos!

The réal implication is that expectations should not be about numbers but about relative performance increase.
Improving the flow of the exhaust is a win regardless. It reduces pump losses and reduces thermal stresses. It will be a noticeable improvement of about 10% be it from 128 to 140, 138 to 152 horses or 140 to 154.

Yes, it wasn't your 10% I was doubting, gains are gains. It's the sweeping statements from other posters on here and elsewhere that suggest a given max hp just from bolt ons that should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Couldn't agree more.
If I was going to make these mods I would want to know the state of the car before, so, professional assessment/guidance and dyno first.
Then, review the analysis, cost the parts and labour required (at both extremes of the budget i.e. High and Low) and calculate the cost per potential additional bhp - leaving subjectivity out of it.
Having frightened yourself at the cost - sit down with a cup of tea etc.
If you go ahead, at the end, repeat the original dyno and compare the results.
Finally, submit your choices and results to the forum so that we can all benefit from your real-world experience.

[Petrus]

If I was going to make these mods I would want to know the state of the car before, so, professional assessment/guidance and dyno first.
Then, review the analysis, cost the parts and labour required (at both extremes of the budget i.e. High and Low) and calculate the cost per potential additional bhp - leaving subjectivity out of it.
Having frightened yourself at the cost - sit down with a cup of tea etc.
If you go ahead, at the end, repeat the original dyno and compare the results.
Finally, summit your choices and results to the forum so that we can all benefit from your real-world experience.

Well, for the benefit of all that would be tops.
For the rest pretty useless. It is what it is anyway.

A free flowing manifold with ditto (de)cat and (no)muffler wíll liberate some 10% of horses from doing an exhaust gas pushing task to push the car. That has already been dyno proven and shared:
Freeing up the exit wíll make the car quicker. The rest is personal priority.

And mind; a dyno does not come for free. Putting it on the dyno twíce to illuztrate what we know already and to have an a meaningless absoolute number seems a rather needless cost increase.
I ´measure´ the before and after on the same stretch of road with two power apps on the mobile phone. Or rather I did; the phone packed up and the current one is too old; is ok for telephone calls and whatsapp only; think it´s a keeper :-)

[Call the midlife!]

155 with a 15 increase is also making the assumption you're starting with 140 in the first place, ignoring the book value of 138.

Make it 150 or 148 or whatever.

Point is that a good flowing exhaust frees up some extra 10% of the horses it has. Nothing to be sneeezed at. More so because it is basically for free. It is not burning any more gasoline; just energy otherwise used up to push the gasses out.
Thermally the engine will run cóóler even and the engine room temp will go down markedly! Almost beyond belief: My unwrapped noisy bugger with OEM heat shields per example: Pushing it to 80% an more of the limits over the backroads of Extramadura; 38 degrees C. in the shade, over 50 tarmac, averaging close to 100km/h, the black heat shield over the muffler was still not to hot to touch when stopping for lunch.

Back to the manifold, a larger diameter is not neccessarily a good thing for road use. Nor is imo wrapping but hey that is a lost cause.

As I said, gains over standard but quoting expected bhp can be misleading to the casual reader or those less experienced.

Spending the sums of money involved on the basis you're expecting 155bhp will most likely only lead to disappointment.
On a tired old engine and drivetrain  that's potentially already down to 125/130bhp your 10% is bringing it back to around stock power, or just a few ponies more.
Which isn't to be sniffed at but bears considering before making the investment.

I don´t see the implication. It will be a roughly 10% increase in performance anywhichway. The actual numbers are meaningless anyway.
Remember that not even all horses are the same. That ranges from SAE and DIN to different types of tests benches, even individual dynos!

The réal implication is that expectations should not be about numbers but about relative performance increase.
Improving the flow of the exhaust is a win regardless. It reduces pump losses and reduces thermal stresses. It will be a noticeable improvement of about 10% be it from 128 to 140, 138 to 152 horses or 140 to 154.

Yes, it wasn't your 10% I was doubting, gains are gains. It's the sweeping statements from other posters on here and elsewhere that suggest a given max hp just from bolt ons that should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Couldn't agree more.
If I was going to make these mods I would want to know the state of the car before, so, professional assessment/guidance and dyno first.
Then, review the analysis, cost the parts and labour required (at both extremes of the budget i.e. High and Low) and calculate the cost per potential additional bhp - leaving subjectivity out of it.
Having frightened yourself at the cost - sit down with a cup of tea etc.
If you go ahead, at the end, repeat the original dyno and compare the results.
Finally, summit your choices and results to the forum so that we can all benefit from your real-world experience.

A large part of me will always wish I'd gone for a "before" dyno if only to see what the actual gains were from the work I did, bearing in mind the slightly disappointing results against what I'd anticipated.

That said, I've yet to have it on a dyno in full working order so we'll have another go next year. With a different cat back, fresh rings and no oil blowing out of the OCV filter housing...🤓

[treeroy]

Its also worth pointing out that unless you use the same dyno, you won't get an 100% accurate result.

If you had a car that had 140bhp (stock), you might get 130bhp on one dyno, 140bhp on another, and 150bhp on another.

[thetyrant]

I find it hard to believe a sport cat or decat will give 10% increase on these cars, well on an otherwise healthy stock cat at least, is there any true back to back dyno proof of this or just road run/power apps etc ?



 
 

[Petrus]

Its also worth pointing out that unless you use the same dyno, you won't get an 100% accurate result.

If you had a car that had 140bhp (stock), you might get 130bhp on one dyno, 140bhp on another, and 150bhp on another.

Meaning that a before and after comparison using the gsm accelerometer will do the same; give a delta

.

I find it hard to believe a sport cat or decat will give 10% increase on these cars, well on an otherwise healthy stock cat at least, is there any true back to back dyno proof of this or just road run/power apps etc ?

Read manifold, decat, free flow muffler

Have a look at the various dyno graphs on this forum.

 

[Ac1962]

I very recently had a Toyosports manifold fitted AND a sports cat to go with my Cobra silencer.
The difference i find is that the car is more lively under throttle especially at higher RPM - i havent and wont dyno it as im not bothered. For what it cost me for what i percieve i get from it is perfect - great noise - if you drive sensible its not loud but if you hoof it it does get some noise going. I have  K&N induction on it too so overall i think she breathes quite well compared to a standard set up - but like most i assume, keeping the filter clean and the MAF clean makes enough sense and difference. All this goes out the window though when you find a tunnel,,,,then you want the noise, i dont care who you are, the smile you get from the rasp and the pops and bangs is worth every penny.

[thetyrant]

Read manifold, decat, free flow muffler

Have a look at the various dyno graphs on this forum.

Even then i think 10% is a lot but always good to see increases, its a shame we dont have a section for dyno charts on here as finding them within threads is very difficult, if you know where there are some before and after exhaust mods im always interested to learn

[Petrus]

its a shame we dont have a section for dyno charts on here

Well, there sort of is. They are in the ´sticky´ section.

[Ac1962]

toyosports (UK) ltd Contact Us
www.toyosports.co.uk › contact-us-2-w
Home Contact Us Toyosports UK Ltd Candy House Crystal Drive Smethwick Birmingham B66 1QG Internet Sales and Enquires Tel 0844 693 2449 or email us.

[Call the midlife!]

Read manifold, decat, free flow muffler

Have a look at the various dyno graphs on this forum.

Even then i think 10% is a lot but always good to see increases, its a shame we dont have a section for dyno charts on here as finding them within threads is very difficult, if you know where there are some before and after exhaust mods im always interested to learn

A lot of the problem is cost based I think, many people who change the exhaust system alone are doing it for shits and giggles so don't want to spend the money on dyno runs.

Then those of us who go further with the builds and have them dyno tuned can't really contribute to the exhaust only information.

[thetyrant]

its a shame we dont have a section for dyno charts on here

Well, there sort of is. They are in the ´sticky´ section.

Yes had a look through there but unless i missed it i didnt see a before and after comparison with exhaust mods. also some very high numbers for minimal mods in some cases!  the good old dyno difference debates

I recently changed my stock rear silencer from stock to 2.5" straight through and felt very little if any difference in power, maybe a tiny bit free'er at the top end but the extra noise can make you think its faster so may only of been that

[Dev]

Read manifold, decat, free flow muffler

Have a look at the various dyno graphs on this forum.

Even then i think 10% is a lot but always good to see increases, its a shame we dont have a section for dyno charts on here as finding them within threads is very difficult, if you know where there are some before and after exhaust mods im always interested to learn

 I do not know about the 10% figure only what I remember from the old SC days.  Dyno numbers are what you make of it as a lot of it could be due to a multitude of factors like the condition of the car and the dyno operator to skew the result. 
 Most of these so called bolt ons have been a disappointment from their projected claim and in some instances there was a loss of power in the case of air filters.  I especially get perturbed when someone adds up their advertised hp of the bolt ons and say they are as fast as a 2ZZ or some app they used to calculate their gains. 

Having said that my opinion based on what I have seen with a performance  downpipe that was larger than the one being discussed based on reported dynos is that it's only one of two actual bolt ons that makes power. There is a major restriction in the OEM pipe which is the bottle neck for power. I have seen the before and after of a few dynos that showed the gain is in-between 5-10 whp. I would say at best its about 8whp which is significant and can be appreciated. The drawback is the noise and that is why I sold it a month after I bought it because I needed ear plugs. A performance downpipe is not just beneficial for our cars but for a verity of other cars as the gains can be even more depending on the factory restriction and what comes after it.

[treeroy]

I very recently had a Toyosports manifold fitted AND a sports cat to go with my Cobra silencer.
The difference i find is that the car is more lively under throttle especially at higher RPM - i havent and wont dyno it as im not bothered. For what it cost me for what i percieve i get from it is perfect - great noise - if you drive sensible its not loud but if you hoof it it does get some noise going. I have  K&N induction on it too so overall i think she breathes quite well compared to a standard set up - but like most i assume, keeping the filter clean and the MAF clean makes enough sense and difference. All this goes out the window though when you find a tunnel,,,,then you want the noise, i dont care who you are, the smile you get from the rasp and the pops and bangs is worth every penny.

If you dont mind me asking, where did you get your Toyosports manifold from?

[Joesson]

155 with a 15 increase is also making the assumption you're starting with 140 in the first place, ignoring the book value of 138.

Make it 150 or 148 or whatever.

Point is that a good flowing exhaust frees up some extra 10% of the horses it has. Nothing to be sneeezed at. More so because it is basically for free. It is not burning any more gasoline; just energy otherwise used up to push the gasses out.
Thermally the engine will run cóóler even and the engine room temp will go down markedly! Almost beyond belief: My unwrapped noisy bugger with OEM heat shields per example: Pushing it to 80% an more of the limits over the backroads of Extramadura; 38 degrees C. in the shade, over 50 tarmac, averaging close to 100km/h, the black heat shield over the muffler was still not to hot to touch when stopping for lunch.

Back to the manifold, a larger diameter is not neccessarily a good thing for road use. Nor is imo wrapping but hey that is a lost cause.

We've just arrived home in 28 degree "heat" shuffled the daily and the 2 to get the latter in the garage and the radiator fan came on. Black heat shield could likely fry an egg!
My 2 is standard but minus pre cats so something is making / keeping it hot if Mr P's is running cooler in higher ambient temperatures.

[Petrus]

I recently changed my stock rear silencer from stock to 2.5" straight through and felt very little if any difference in power, maybe a tiny bit free'er at the top end but the extra noise can make you think its faster so may only of been that

The cat is the main restriction but as it is a chain with three links, swapping it for a decat pipe will see the manifold and muffler holding back the gasses.
Even totally free it still is all relative, not a different car, not like adding a turbo. The say 10% you are hardly going to notice and indeed mainly at higher revs because that is where the difference in horses is largests. It will just be a bit more lively. And a LÓT more noisy. You will free considerably more decibels than horses. Mine would définitely be a NoNo in more densely populated regions. Í think it´s :-cool though and it also is literally :-)