Mid Night Car Special - Caution Wake Turbulence

Started by Mariorcross, November 17, 2020, 13:26

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Mariorcross

Why have I joined this forum? I'm 43, getting old and have loved cars all my life. I've owned cheap runabouts most of my life. In 2014 I spoiled myself and bought a MK4 Golf 150PD remapped to 190BHP. I did some very light modifications and really enjoyed the mechanical side of maintenance, research and light upgrades. I loved looking at her, driving her both as a daily and at the weekend. However, as she got older I started to spend more and more just in maintenance and in the end I had to let her go as financially I couldn't afford to keep her. So in 2018 I was forced to sell her. I've owned many £200 to £300 runabouts since then but really miss having something I could enjoy when I drive. I've been looking around for my next car. I've traditionally been a performance diesel man and was looking to buy either a BMW 123d or BMW 335d as they were rear wheel drive, have plenty of power and are pretty cheap to buy and modify. The 335d could easily hit 400bhp & 900nm with a weight of 1645kg.

While I was dreaming of cars in AutoTrader i came across the MR2. I always thought it was a hairdressers car, nothing to be concerned about. Seeing it have 138bhp I laughed. How can this be a performance car? I didn't even like it's looks. They were cheap at £1000 to £1500 if you are lucky for an ok example.  But how could this little car even compete with my BMW 335D?

After a little research I discovered Toyota is the most reliable Brand out there. Great point. After a little more digging I came across a video of Touge Racing and in particular the Techno Pro Spirit MR-S. I watched every video I could even those in Japanese. I then came across the yellow MR-S of the legendary Mid Night Club and the more modern version,  Pieter Zeelie MR2.

I was hooked. A car that cost £1k to £1.5k and relatively cheap mods I could either turbo the 1ZZ or swap to a Turbo 2ZZ or Turbo 2GR-FE, both engines being relatively cheap and mods can be as cheap or expensive as you want. And with a lot of elbow grease you could make the body actually very attractive again for a relatively cheap price. So I'm hooked and I think I've found my next project that I really hope will be a car I keep for life. Something that I hope won't cost the earth, will give me lots of fun and will be more on the road than broken off the road. After some support from my wife pushing me to get one i think I'll have the confidence to do this journey.

This will be my diary to log my journey. I hope it lasts a life time. I hope to create something unique in time. A homage to the petrol engine before it becomes extinct and replaced by electric vehicles. These are my dreams. They may just stay as dreams. I may hit financial troubles. I may stop as it will get too expensive. I may stop because of too many mechanical issues or I may crash it and write it off? Who knows. But I'm starting with a dream, a dream to build something special that I can drive on the road, race at the track, make me feel alive and inspire other people.

I'll try to log my costs and take photos of all the stages as well as have a list for mods.

So my journey starts. I need driving practice. So I've started to rebuild my 125cc shifter kart which I hope to start using in 2021 as they have similar driving characteristics with snap oversteer. That's another journey in itself.

I've started looking for my life partner but I'm fighting against backyard dealers who just want to make a profit. I've phoned up for a few and most I get the feeling are not a great starting platform as they have too many issues to start with. I know I want a 2004 or more recent as it has more bracing and I know I want the hard top hopefully as it will save me buying one later. I recently lost a bid on eBay for a two owner 2005 Blue MR2 MK3 with 103000. MOT history was strong but it had no current MOT but my gut says it would have passed. I lost in the last 5 seconds to a dealer who bought it for £1415 and he will flip it for £2.5k to £3k in the next week. So my journey continues. I trawl gumtree, AutoTrader, Friday Ad, EBay, local auctions. Nothing yet. I look at it that by loosing this one I'll get a lower mileage one with an MOT and ideally a hardtop. Fate will hopefully help. I bought an ELM327 OBD2 reader and have read up on the buyers guide so I'm ready for precat issues and subframe rot.

Now it's a matter of waiting to find my life long partner. I worry I'll buy a dog who's engine will blow or other issues and I read everyday to minimise the risk. This log is mainly for me but there maybe others interested in my journey as I progress. These are my very first steps in my journey. Exciting times.

I have a list of mods in my head id like to do but I've yet to organise them in an order. I know as soon as I find a car I'll change the header to remove the precats. Then ill focus on servicing the car. I want then shake it down and see if it's something that'll hold together before I invest anything further otherwise I'll be wasting my money.  So my next stage is to get a list of mods written down in some sort of order. So onto reading lots of other people's build either on these forums or YouTube and logging their changes.

Next post will hopefully be my initial mods.

Ardent

Well there's an opening post and a half.

Hello and welcome.

Joesson

Well, that is some introductory post, that I almost didn't bother to continue reading when I got to -"I'm 43, getting old".

Then I thought you can't be an eternal pessimist because you are dreaming a long way into the future.

For whatever reasons you have decided on an MR2 mk3 to help fulfill those dreams you have come to the right place for information, encouragement and somewhere to discuss your thoughts.

As for finding the right car, there are from time to time examples on here, also a parts for sale section that will only be revealed when you have established your credentials and shown that you won't be a stranger.

So hello and welcome.

1979scotte

Hello and welcome
Mods aren't cheap
Don't worry about the age the bracing or the precats worry about general condition.
Enjoy
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

Mariorcross

Thank you all for taking the time for reading my thoughts. This is going to be an exciting journey for me and it's nice to share it with like minded people. I appreciate the guidance to the marketplace. I've seen someone has just put a car on today for £1750 and I've shown interest but I think I'm second in line as someone showed interest before me and so I don't want to step on anyone's toes. If it sells I'm patient and I'm sure a nice minimum rust example will turn up. In the meantime I'm reading to organise my thoughts as to what ill do initially as my main concern is I want to drive it as much as possible and keep it off road at a minimum.

paulj

Welcome alone! Be patient, the right one will come along for you.  Read our buyers guide and, lockdown permitting, look at and drive a few before committing. Our cars are old so don't be too swayed by low mileage, a higher mileage well maintained one will be as good.

I liked your comment about Toyota reliability, either here or on another forum there was a question asked about what you should do to the car if storing for the winter.  Apparently the local Mr T team said "you don't need to do anything, it's a Toyota"
Today
2000 x reg pfl - blue - as original no mods
In the late 1980's
1982 x reg Toyota Corolla Liftback Coupe (also blue)
1978 s reg Mitsubishi Celeste Coupe (yellow)

Joesson

@paulj
'Twas I that reported Mr T's comment. That was from 2011, so far so good!

NB Always best to read the full story, not just parts / out of context as the news reports sometimes do.
My 2 is in the garage, up on axle stands or the tyres are over inflated. The battery is on charge. The wipers are propped off of the screen and it's covered with old duvet's to keep the dust off and help stop any incidental damage.

puma2

 :) a big welcome to all of that :)
well thought out and we all need dreams.
better to have a go and chase the dream reather than regreat later that we did not have a go in the 1st placde.

dont be to concered on your year of car.
as you will be playing with it anyway.
keep looking and get ready to travel to find the right one when we can.

let us no how you get on. ;D  ;D

Mariorcross

Thank you for the welcome, I did not know how tight knit the MR2 community was and it's really nice to have the support from like minded people as I'm sure there are going to be many ups and downs on my journey. Having the support from my wife and like minded people will motivate me to push forward. I know I need to be patient as rushing now will only cause me to face issues in the future and waste money I do not have. I have a vision of what I'd like the car to be and I know my journey will be long. I hope I don't make too many mistakes along the way. I know the petrol engine has a finite life and I really want to contribute a project as a tribute to it. I'm really wanting to get stuck in and start asap but I'm finding it really difficult to find a clean one in my budget range. I don't mind something with a bit higher mileage but they're either not looked after by their custodians or they're way out of my budget. I will just keep looking. I will use this thread as my diary so anyone interested in my journey will see every stage I take with photos, videos and feelings as when I get older I'd like to refer back to where I started. ATM I'm feeling a bit frustrated as my first stage is written down and costed so I'm keen to action it but without a suitable car it remains a dream. But they do say love finds you in mysterious ways.

Karthoum

Glad to see someone who's new to these cars but 100% completely gets it what is cool about them.

So many people who have these and don't really hold on to them could have easily had an MX-5 instead and not noticed a difference/enjoyed the boot space more than anything else. You don't seem like one of those, so anything you want to ask I will be surely on the lookout for your posts and give you advice if I know it or lead you to the right person.

In regards to Facelift and Hardtop, that ebay bid I'd happily would have bid 1800 at least, I paid £2000 for my 2nd one with now a permanent hardtop/2003 model year and couldn't be happier, it has an incredibly large amount of history come with it and it had several extra parts come with it, like bracing.

Certainly made me much happier than paying £1200 for my first one, a 2004 with 30k less miles and yet in much, much worse condition.

Mariorcross

What do people think of the following? I'm considering buying. The underseal is the only question per MOT history?

Thank you

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202011196286382?sort=datedesc&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&model=MR2&include-delivery-option=on&year-to=2020&radius=1500&make=TOYOTA&postcode=bn112sn&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

1979scotte

Quote from: Mariorcross on November 19, 2020, 21:30What do people think of the following? I'm considering buying. The underseal is the only question per MOT history?

Thank you

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202011196286382?sort=datedesc&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&model=MR2&include-delivery-option=on&year-to=2020&radius=1500&make=TOYOTA&postcode=bn112sn&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

Seems too cheap for me at such low mileage.
Especially if it has parts of a hardtop fitting kit included.

There are a couple of cars available directly from this forum I would look at those before auto trader tbh.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

Mariorcross

Which ones would you recommend here? Thank you

Joesson

#13
As @1979scotte said it's "too cheap" "at such a low  But the seller is claiming to be Private which could explain that.
From the MOT record it's certainly been unloved. Strange then that is has been under sealed. From the pictures the seat bolsters look good, they could have been replaced but that doesn't go with the MOT lack of care. Could be worth a look as you have said you are looking for a project, that being the case I don't believe those for sale on here fit that category.

Mariorcross

Hi Joesson thanks for the reply. I'm looking for a project but I don't want to deal with rust and if the underseal is hiding that it's not for me. I'm looking for a project but not for me to fix basic maintenace tasks and I agree with your comments, advisories never cleared so why underseal the car? Plus I see rust on bolts so I think I'll give it a miss as it's nearly a 10 hour round trip and the risks too high. Ill be patient and keep looking

SoloNomad

Hi Mariorcross, welcome to the club .... I know of a 02 car that may be of interest in Chichester so should be local, although I thought you wanted an 04 or later but looks like it's been looked after - I'll pm you :)
And then one day you find, ten years have got behind you ...

Joesson

Quote from: SoloNomad on November 20, 2020, 08:38Hi Mariorcross, welcome to the club .... I know of a 02 car that may be of interest in Chichester so should be local, although I thought you wanted an 04 or later but looks like it's been looked after - I'll pm you :)


A good call, 02 last of the lightweight variant. Much  of the bracing added to later, heavier models, can be retrofitted as/ if required.

SV-3

My advice would be to increase your budget.
The old adage "buy the best car for your budget" must be your mantra.

Yo can get into the "game" with these cars for relatively little money but the car will likely be a high mileage and well used/abused/neglected example.
I am full of admiration for those who want to start from ground zero. However, that approach requires a realistic assessment of the real costs for parts - if you are doing all the work, then great, but if not then you have another cost to account for.

Another question is: How long long are you prepared to wait until you are able to drive the car? A year, two years?.
The differential between a 'project' and a 'sorted' car is just too small and the money spent on the 'project' will not be recouped when and if you come to sell it.
Look at the cars for sale on here. Look at the difference in the specifications. Look at the price difference.
Take @Bossworld recent advert as an example, if only to give yourself an idea of the work done and/or that you could enjoy doing with a 'project. Then, do the sums. You will quickly see that the 'differential' between the two extremes is so small, relatively, as to make no sense. Crikey, the cost of a hardtop and associated parts is more than the nominal £1,000 between the two extremes.
Nevertheless, welcome to the club, and good luck with your journey, which will hopefully be made in one of these brilliant little cars.
'03 Mk3 Chilli Red (Avon ZV7's: 26F/32R)
Sony WX-920BT
"Hardtop Cognoscenti"
"Stock Cubed"
"AirCon Aficionado"
"Keeper of the Beeper"
Ex '88 Mk1b White (Yokohama A539's: 26F/28R)
"Here we all are, rumours and old toffee abound." John Martyn

SoloNomad

Here's some details:

For Sale Silver 2002 PFL Roadster. Stock except for FL rear lights and new short shifter.
Mot'd until 17th May 2021 Has been completely serviced including plugs, filters, new serpentine belt, new rocker gasket and new chain tensioner O ring.
New caliper's all round about 500 miles ago. Brakes are excellent including the hand brake.
I have replaced the roof with an excellent condition secondhand one.
Black leather interior with totally undamaged seats. New fuel cap cable. Has been decatted (pre cats)
The rear subframe is like brand new. Air Conditioning 112k Miles
There are a couple of body blemishes but this car will stand up to any inspection.


It's up for £1750 - I'm not enough of an expert to know if this is high or not but could be within budget. Nothing to do with the owner but just seen it up far sale and thought it might be worth a look?
And then one day you find, ten years have got behind you ...

Bossworld

#19
Thanks for the tag SV-3.

Mariorcross it's interesting to read your post, my first car (a 1996 Peugeot 306 DT) was probably fit for the scrappy even from the moment I bought it but I took it from 120,000 miles to just over 150,000, and even had the engine changed, before it was weighed in on the 2009 scrappage scheme.

Touch wood, ever since then, I've never had a car break down on me.  Admittedly I've had newer 'main' cars (with the exception of my MR2), but there typically comes a tipping point with maintenance.  We've never quite learned it in our family, my mum is still running a 53 plate A4 that she bought in 2007, and her MR2 alongside it.  My Dad has spent stupid amounts keeping old Volvos on the road long after they're done for, and I think part of it is sentiment.
The other part is sunk cost and that's where I found myself from an MR2 perspective.  Once you've sunk money into it, there comes a point where you might as well keep going, and a case of 'better the devil you know'.

Patrick (forum Admin) has done a couple of recent threads on bangernomics, I think if you're willing to get a different car and scrap it at MOT time then other than breakdowns, it's reasonably sound logic.  The problem, as we've seen even in the MR2 world, is that the MOT isn't a 100% guide to a vehicle's safety.  There are lots of MR2s out there with rotten subframes but they're covered by a rear 'nappy' the tester isn't allowed to remove.  Four different brands of tyre would pass an MOT but could put you sideways on a wet roundabout.

Hardtops are a funny beast, I had one but as I've got a garage it was superfluous and meant trying to find somewhere to store it.  They are prone to creaks and rattles, but on the plus side, I believe a factory hardtop car will have air-conditioning.  Whether that's still working after 14+ years is debateable and a pricey fix.  You may also find that a car that had a hardtop from the factory has a better condition soft-top than one without.

These cars are easy to work on – I was at 6th Form in the days of my 306 so wound up being far more experienced than I ought to be on changing glow plugs and the like, but it gave me a taste.  The subsequent Clio and Minis didn't need that kind of work, so the MR2 was bought when we moved house and I'd run out of enthusiasm for the house renovation.  I've learned a hell of a lot on the car and I've been able to translate that to big financial savings on the Mini's routine servicing.

There is middle ground between the extremes of project car < > daily driver - I only did the suspension refresh in mid-2019 but was obviously still driving the car up to that point.  @Carolyn is a big advocate of a stock suspension refresh and it made a big difference to my car.

Hope you manage to find a car, funnily enough I've got to head down to Sussex (on the train) in December to pick up my Golf, so it's sometimes worth travelling if you find 'the one'.


Bossworld

#20
Quote from: SoloNomad on November 20, 2020, 11:55Here's some details:

For Sale Silver 2002 PFL Roadster. Stock except for FL rear lights and new short shifter.
Mot'd until 17th May 2021 Has been completely serviced including plugs, filters, new serpentine belt, new rocker gasket and new chain tensioner O ring.
New caliper's all round about 500 miles ago. Brakes are excellent including the hand brake.
I have replaced the roof with an excellent condition secondhand one.
Black leather interior with totally undamaged seats. New fuel cap cable. Has been decatted (pre cats)
The rear subframe is like brand new. Air Conditioning 112k Miles
There are a couple of body blemishes but this car will stand up to any inspection.


It's up for £1750 - I'm not enough of an expert to know if this is high or not but could be within budget. Nothing to do with the owner but just seen it up far sale and thought it might be worth a look?

It sounds promising, I would pay attention to a couple of other unlisted common things that can go, which would be:

Radiator - cheap and easy to replace but these cars take nearly 10l of coolant due to the layout
Steering union joint - fairly easy to replace, some debate over pattern parts vs. genuine Toyota but the part offered by TCB has had a good reception.

---

As others have alluded, at this ~2k end of the market, you're going to find wild variations in how cars have been looked after and whether they've had parts proactively replaced or just done because of an MOT failure.  If you're keeping a car for years, then IMO it's easier to swallow the costs, but a tatty sub-£1k car could be a diamond in the rough, or it might cost thousands to get to where you want it to be.

1979scotte

My first 2 was an 06 55k miles fsh with a hardtop paid good money for it.
Still needed new rad new sub frame and new rear brakes.
You pays your money you takes your chance.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

Mariorcross

Thank you all for the advice and thank you @SoloNomad for the link. There was an issue with low coolant in previous MOT which I worry could be a head gasket issue or other engine issue. As I would like to drive the car spiritidly I really worry about the engine popping. Apart from that the car does look like it's been looked after. I've messaged the guy and waiting for his reply as it's only down the road (45m drive) from my little village. Fingers crossed.

Bossworld

Quote from: Mariorcross on November 20, 2020, 15:03Thank you all for the advice and thank you @SoloNomad for the link. There was an issue with low coolant in previous MOT which I worry could be a head gasket issue or other engine issue. As I would like to drive the car spiritidly I really worry about the engine popping. Apart from that the car does look like it's been looked after. I've messaged the guy and waiting for his reply as it's only down the road (45m drive) from my little village. Fingers crossed.

The coolant level on these cars can go up and down for very little apparent reason / no visible leak. I know that sounds like it's defying the laws of physics and hopefully someone understands what causes the visible level in the expansion tank to change better than I do.


Mariorcross

Thank you for the heads up. What do you think I should offer for the car?

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