Still can't bring myself to fit my meisters....

[R.Sointment]

Picked up a set in the last group buy, I've dithered over them ever since.

Use car for: Driving round Warwickshire, occasionally Wales and Scotland, has never seen a track, might at some point but certainly not regularly.
Favourite thing about car: Agility, fluidity and poise when wrestled down a back road, civility and compliance.
My fear: I'm going to wreck this with coilovers.

I've devoured just about every post on the forum even vaguely relating to the topic and sure they're apparently remarkably compliant... for coilovers, but with springs rates that high they're inevitably going to be a lot less civilised.
Equally there are days where I'd love the extra precision and control...

Then I remember that actually that control will be reduced in the world in which I actually drive my car; rural, muddy, gnarly, HS2 trashed Warwickshire etc etc...

I have flip flopped between "just whack them on" and "you'll wreck your car" on a pretty much monthly and sometimes daily basis, but I think I'm finally settling on don't put them on.

Probably worth mentioning I've done this before with a Renaultsport Clio 172 Cup - put some Bilstein B14 coilovers on it and whilst it was properly awesome in the right setting, sure enough when asked to tackle genuine Welsh Gnar or anything with really "interesting" topography it did become clear I'd taken things a step backwards.

In truth I don't really know what I'm hoping to gain with this post - I've read everyone's opinions on the matter to death already, I've got my own hard won experience of wrecking things with coilovers, and I think I'm in the "it's pretty much perfect out of the factory" camp.
I guess to spread to pain of my head scratching out a bit!
So here's my request for everyone's two pence:

I love the way my car rides and handles as it is, should I really go down the route of refreshing all the bushes and one of the less extreme suspension options rather than putting coilovers on it, and pass these on to someone who will actually take them to a racetrack occasionally, and enjoy them very much, for all the reasons I will curse them as my wheels are flung clear of the tarmac yet again?

[SV-3]

A suspension refresh by all means.
Coilovers, nah, track use only. On our roads you need compliance, not defiance.
You'd regret it as soon as it's done.
Plus point, you should have no trouble selling them, there's always someone looking for them, each to their own I guess.

[R.Sointment]

Thank you, the more of this I hear the better I will feel!

[s12vea]

I agree for our roads a suspension refresh maybe with added lowering springs eibach / teins.
You need a perfectly flat roads for me to enjoy coilovers, I must admit I like the stance that can be achieved by coilovers but I guess you have to choose between looks vs comfort

[moca2cv]

Fresh shocks, lowering springs, polybushes, good alignment. Perfect set up for UK roads 👍🏻

[Carolyn]

My two-pennneth:

KYB shocks and new OEM springs all round.

The way to go for the real world of our rubbish roads.

[Topdownman]

I have meisters on and am currently getting all the bits together to go back to kybs with tein lowering springs at some stage.

This will give me a drop as keeping at standard height is not an option for me for aesthetic reasons if nothing else.

I know lowering springs will take up the first bit of compliance of the shocks but that is something I am prepared to give up.

The meisters are of course great on a smooth road but I like the B roads/ off road tracks lol and find them less than helpful/scary on a bouncy and twisty road.

If the meisters have never been fitted then it will be very easy to sell them I am sure.

The key to this is being honest about what you want from the car. The fact that you havent fitted them probably answers your question. If you havent refreshed your suspension since the car was new, then that will probably be all you want to get the car where you want it to be (either with loweing or standard springs).

[JB21]

I have them fitted and they are fine for the road IMO, they are firm but have very good damping so dont rattle your filling out.

Mine is fully braced, and has a 6 point roll cage so will be stiffer still. I bet without these the meisters on there own would be fantastic.

[Call the midlife!]

I'd swap mine for a refresh with Teins tomorrow if I could be bothered, the Meisters are great at the money but with everything else I've done to ruin my car I think I'd be more comfortable with a bit more compliance in the suspension.
Similar to Simon though, I prefer the aesthetics of the lowered ride.

[Gaz mr-s]

If you do fit them, judging by what you've said you'll hate them for at least 500 miles.

I had them all-round. I saw an ad' for a set of new Koni's. THEY'RE what I want, I thought. My partner also has a 2 & likes firm suspension...so she'd get the Meister.

I put the Koni on the rear some time ago, 'life' got in the way of changing the fronts. And the Meister on the front seem fine now.

There are a couple of Americans who contribute on here & have dabbled with different shock-makes with a few cars & significant mileages.  One of them suggested to me to put the 5kg fronts on the rears, & fit 3kg on the front.

The Koni on the rear haven't been of significant benefit, particularly into road holes, - seems crashy.

[1979scotte]

I've had coilovers on all 3 of my MR2s. They've all been meister R.
I was firmly in the coilovers are better camp now I think I've gone the other way. They're certainly better on my heavier V6 than a stock roadster although the V6 has polybushes and refurbed wishbones.
If in doubt go with stock or koni inserts which I would like to try.

[1979scotte]

If you do fit them, judging by what you've said you'll hate them for at least 500 miles.

I had them all-round. I saw an ad' for a set of new Koni's. THEY'RE what I want, I thought. My partner also has a 2 & likes firm suspension...so she'd get the Meister.

I put the Koni on the rear some time ago, 'life' got in the way of changing the fronts. And the Meister on the front seem fine now.

There are a couple of Americans who contribute on here & have dabbled with different shock-makes with a few cars & significant mileages.  One of them suggested to me to put the 5kg fronts on the rears, & fit 3kg on the front.

The Koni on the rear haven't been of significant benefit, particularly into road holes, - seems crashy.

Am I reading this correctly?
You have a completely different make of shocks and springs front to rear?

[Gaz mr-s]

Am I reading this correctly?
You have a completely different make of shocks and springs front to rear?

At the moment, - not staying that way. ;-)

[Petrus]

Am I reading this correctly?
You have a completely different make of shocks and springs front to rear?

My jaw was lowered. Don´t like the stance one bit. Hope he corrects it soon ;-)

Read 3 and 5 kg mentioned for road too. Imo underlying the usefulness of a suspension reference table as this is more than TRD ráce spring rate.

Considering the ride hight there is more to it; suspension geometry. The calculation links shared by Adam28 illustrated that TRD knew a thing or two with their Sportivo kit.

[steveash]

I like my Meisters. I don't drive my MR2 all that often so when I do it's to enjoy the experience. I wouldn't want this suspension for the school run but for occasional fun drives it makes it more of an event.

It feels good to me and certainly not crashy. Particularly after the ware-in period and with good bracing. Whether it has actually improved performance with regard to cornering speeds etc I have no idea and don't really care.

[Beachbum957]

KYB with stock springs work well, but lowering springs are stiffer than stock and the KYB damping doesn't match up very well. We ran Tein springs with KYB and switched to Koni inserts which work much better. 

The biggest issue with lowering springs is ground clearance, which can be a big issue depending on where you drive. 

The most comfortable setup (in my opinion only) is stock springs and Koni inserts. 

[AdamR28]

TL:DR: Flog the Meister, fit some Koni Sports.


Long answer...

Spring rates aren't the whole part of the puzzle - damping plays a huge part too.

The super long answer involves a lot of maths and graphs and stuff, the shortish answer is that a car with hard springs and nice digressive compression damping can 'ride' better than a car with soft springs and OE type damping curves. BUT it has to be set up right.



Some background: Compression damping slows the damper movement when the wheel is going up into the arch, when the damper is getting shorter. Compression damping also 'props up' the car on transitions when you load that side of the car up (eg. the left dampers are in low speed compression when you turn the car into a right hand bend).

Rebound damping is what slows the wheel down as it extends away from the car - either dropping into a pothole, rolling dip, or the right hand side of that car as you're turning it into the right hand corner.

Damping can be split into low and high speed - approximately 0"-3" and 3"-10" of wheel movement per second respectively.

Important note: The dampers only affect things when the car is in a transition - when the wheels are (trying to!) moving up and down. The springs are acting all the time, just they provide more extension force when they have had more compression force added to them.



What I find with the OE setup is that it has soft springs, relatively nice low speed compression and rebound damping, but way too much high speed compression, and not enough high speed rebound.

As you can imagine from the above, low speed compression and rebound damping are what you 'feel' immediately after adding an input - steering, braking - especially on smooth roads.

High speed compression is when you hit a 'sharp' bump, and the car crashes and bangs and feels horrible. The OE damper, at 10" per second, might produce 100kg of instantaneous force at this point. You feel that because the amount of load it transfers to the car is massively higher than the spring rate (low single figures of kg/mm). As soon as the damper starts to move, the load drops off, but if the damper is basic (not very sensitive) it will take a little while for the circuits to open up. This is when a higher quality damper gives you a benefit - you can have less high speed damping so it tackles bumps better, this high speed damping drops off more quickly when you do clatter into said obstacle, and they can be built to give more low speed damping so the car feels more taught to the driver. This is called digressive damping. Result? A better ride AND better feel.

Rebound helps keep the car settled on transitions and when coming out of larger bumps. If the rebound damping is higher, the car will roll over more slowly as you turn into a corner (but it won't affect the AMOUNT of body roll), making it feel more controlled. If you hit a big compression on the road, the spring is then fully compressed and has a lot of energy ready to recoil - the damper has to resist this. I find the OE dampers too soft in high speed rebound, if you really hustle the car it feels uncontrolled.



The Meister dampers I've used and fitted have been fine, and they do ride pretty ok, but they use the springs to prop up the car rather than proper damping curves. The curves are the same as OE - flat lines, basically. (The GT1s have better curves, but at the 'slack' end of the range they are regressive rather than digressive, which is generally not desirable, so you have to wind them right up to get them to work properly.)


So, in all - I agree with the above. Stock components are great, and if you want a bit of extra body control and less crashy-ness, fit some Koni Sports.

[shnazzle]

"Then I remember that actually that control will be reduced in the world in which I actually drive my car; rural, muddy, gnarly, HS2 trashed Warwickshire etc etc..."

Don't fit them. Sell them and fix up your current setup.

[Petrus]

@Adam28  What you describe about high speed damping reflects the most striking difference with the Sportivo shocks: potholes, ridges at all are soaked up a lót smoother belying the springs being stiffer.
So a firmer, more stable ride combined with increased comfort.

Must be noted though that although the spring rate given for the Sportivo springs is not the whole story as unlike the OEM ones they are somewhat progressively wound.
Although that undoubtly helps the comfort, it does not resist the initial load transfer following of turning the wheels. With linear springs that is relatively less.

[R.Sointment]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts, and largely reinforcing the conclusion I'd come to - I was hoping for a friendly echo chamber!
Adam that's the kind of in depth break down I'd have paid someone to give me!
Sounds as though I should  be looking for a set of KYBs and stock/possibly very slightly lower springs.
I wouldn't mind things a bit firmer, but really only a bit.

I did entertain pipe dreams of a v6, at which point the coilovers would make perfect sense...

Meanwhile, back out here in the real world we're all so keen on I should probably flogging them shamelessly!

[AdamR28]

@Adam28  What you describe about high speed damping reflects the most striking difference with the Sportivo shocks: potholes, ridges at all are soaked up a lót smoother belying the springs being stiffer.
So a firmer, more stable ride combined with increased comfort.

Exactly! A shiny, blingy set of shocks made by some random CNC factory in China, or some boring looking, dull painted ones from a suspension specialist made in Europe, Japan, etc? No contest.

[R.Sointment]

As for the condition, the closest they've been to a vehicle is the passenger seat of mine, and they have been out of the box a few times for me to oggle/ponder furiously over but are otherwise pristine!

[1979scotte]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts, and largely reinforcing the conclusion I'd come to - I was hoping for a friendly echo chamber!
Adam that's the kind of in depth break down I'd have paid someone to give me!
Sounds as though I should  be looking for a set of KYBs and stock/possibly very slightly lower springs.
I wouldn't mind things a bit firmer, but really only a bit.

I did entertain pipe dreams of a v6, at which point the coilovers would make perfect sense...

Meanwhile, back out here in the real world we're all so keen on I should probably flogging them shamelessly!

Put the V6 out of your mind prices of boxsters make V6 swaps economically farcical.

[Petrus]

and stock/possibly very slightly lower springs.
I wouldn't mind things a bit firmer, but really only a bit.

Not much of that around.
The available options are 30 - 40  lower and firmer to match.
The Eibach Pro-Kit springs were the ones sold under the TTE monniker I think. From what I can find they are the softest lowering springs availeble.

Now, dare I say as it is a much slagged NoNo, there is also the option of cutting down OEM springs ever so slightly. As Carolyn pointed out that makes them automatically a bit stiffer as well. It máy be what you want.

[Carolyn]

and stock/possibly very slightly lower springs.
I wouldn't mind things a bit firmer, but really only a bit.

Not much of that around.
The available options are 30 - 40  lower and firmer to match.
The Eibach Pro-Kit springs were the ones sold under the TTE monniker I think. From what I can find they are the softest lowering springs availeble.

Now, dare I say as it is a much slagged NoNo, there is also the option of cutting down OEM springs ever so slightly. As Carolyn pointed out that makes them automatically a bit stiffer as well. It máy be what you want.

Come to think of it, I did take 1/2 coil off my fronts.  Everyone who's driven my car recently has remarked on how nicely it drives.