Still can't bring myself to fit my meisters....

[Petrus]

Come to think of it, I did take 1/2 coil off my fronts.  Everyone who's driven my car recently has remarked on how nicely it drives.

Adding just a wee bit of rake too; win-win.

While waiting for enlightenment about the subject, cut off 1/1 front and just over 1/2 rear of mine to compensate for added lightness ánd a bit of rake.

[R.Sointment]

Okay, so KYBs and stock springs with half a coil out sounds ideal!

[Petrus]

Okay, so KYBs and stock springs with half a coil out sounds ideal!

Maybe a bit more even as new springs will raíse your rear and 1/2 off at the front is most likely the same as 15 years old ones.
I´d measure them when they are off.
Keep in mind that the new ones will be a bit stiffer.
Think about the ride hight you´d like.
Then decide.

[R.Sointment]

A whisker under stock probably. I'm not hugely bothered aesthetically, I can't see the arch gap from the driver's seat!

[Petrus]

A whisker under stock probably. I'm not hugely bothered aesthetically, I can't see the arch gap from the driver's seat!

True. You will notice it though. Same thing some rake.

[Dev]

 Coilovers first become a fad and then they get the boot on many car forums for the same reasons and what they all have in common is the cheap budget Taiwanese coilovers. People usually equate stiffness with better handling and its not the case at all. I have mentioned this before and its not coilovers, its the amount you are willing to spend for a properly researched set which is firmer than OEM but soft in comparison. There are only two companies that sell street coilovers that are worth your consideration. Designing  a coilover system is not something you throw together, there is a lot more sophistication that goes into it that requires them to be designed and tested on the car with some like KW that use a shaker rig. 
 These systems cost double that of a cheap kit but there is no equal or diminishing returns. Its either right or wrong. 

[Petrus]

These systems cost double that of a cheap kit but there is no equal or diminishing returns. Its either right or wrong. 

There is also budget.

[Dev]

These systems cost double that of a cheap kit but there is no equal or diminishing returns. Its either right or wrong. 

There is also budget.

 Except for the Koni inserts being the exception only because it is right but still not great. There are a lot of things that are advertised as budget options but it doesn't mean you should buy it because they can make things worse.   
 Marketing has a way of convince others that one product is a better value because its almost the same but cheaper. You get fake reviewers or some that have no bases of comparison that think stiff is better and recommend them to others until one day someone complains and then everyone else realizes maybe this was not a good idea. 
 Sometimes the product that is bench mark of comparison is the better value.

   
 

[shnazzle]

Not really all that simple is it? 
It's not yes/no. 

The BC BR-RA series are cheap as chips in the coilovers market but they're still much used on track in serious fashion. Same for MeisterR. In certain situations they can meet the needs of the buyer perfectly well. 
They don't offer the flexibility and compliance of "better" coilovers but then you're not paying for flexibility and compliance. 

It was my opinion that Adam should leave the coilovers off and stick to stock or stock-like, based on my experience with mine as a daily over uneven roads. But, it's not fact. Others find the BCs and MeisterRs perfectly fine over the roads I drive.
Need to make sure we don't confuse opinion with fact. 

So, in my opinion; BC BR-RA and MeisterR CRD+ are absolutely fantastic for the money but simply do not offer the most mechanical grip on bumpy b-roads of the UK.
Whether its just my driving or whether there's science to my observations I have no clue.

[Petrus]

Not really all that simple is it?

Well, I made the ´budget´ observation with good reason.
Even a moderate ceiling in the spending makes it all irrelavant.

[1979scotte]

Not really all that simple is it?

Well, I made the ´budget´ observation with good reason.
Even a moderate ceiling in the spending makes it all irrelavant.

Spending ceiling what is such a thing?

[Petrus]

Not really all that simple is it?

Well, I made the ´budget´ observation with good reason.
Even a moderate ceiling in the spending makes it all irrelavant.

Spending ceiling what is such a thing?

Ceiling on the spending, really.... Well, tant pis.

[shnazzle]

Not really all that simple is it?

Well, I made the ´budget´ observation with good reason.
Even a moderate ceiling in the spending makes it all irrelavant.

Spending ceiling what is such a thing?

Ceiling on the spending, really.... Well, tant pis.

Ceiling=universe

[1979scotte]

Not really all that simple is it?

Well, I made the ´budget´ observation with good reason.
Even a moderate ceiling in the spending makes it all irrelavant.

Spending ceiling what is such a thing?

Ceiling on the spending, really.... Well, tant pis.

Ceiling=universe

Cars are cheap buy a newfie now that's expensive.

[Zxrob]

Not really all that simple is it?
It's not yes/no.

The BC BR-RA series are cheap as chips in the coilovers market but they're still much used on track in serious fashion. Same for MeisterR. In certain situations they can meet the needs of the buyer perfectly well.
They don't offer the flexibility and compliance of "better" coilovers but then you're not paying for flexibility and compliance.

It was my opinion that Adam should leave the coilovers off and stick to stock or stock-like, based on my experience with mine as a daily over uneven roads. But, it's not fact. Others find the BCs and MeisterRs perfectly fine over the roads I drive.
Need to make sure we don't confuse opinion with fact.

So, in my opinion; BC BR-RA and MeisterR CRD+ are absolutely fantastic for the money but simply do not offer the most mechanical grip on bumpy b-roads of the UK.
Whether its just my driving or whether there's science to my observations I have no clue.

Very well put

Suspension as always been referred to as "the black art" in the motorbike world, the correct set up of a sports car or bike for fast, compliant, driving or riding is a specialist job, the problem is, there are so many opinions out there by folks who know basically fook all but have a good google search history and, their piloting skills couldn't tell the difference between a good and poor set up, lets face it, most wont bother checking the tyre pressures so what do that tell you

Standard suspension, damper inserts, coilovers, all have a place, you pays your money and make your choice, hopefully its the right one for you

Rob

[AdamR28]

Suspension as always been referred to as "the black art" in the motorbike world, the correct set up of a sports car or bike for fast, compliant, driving or riding is a specialist job, the problem is, there are so many opinions out there by folks who know basically fook all but have a good google search history and, their piloting skills couldn't tell the difference between a good and poor set up, lets face it, most wont bother checking the tyre pressures so what do that tell you

So funny because its true.

The thing is, suspension isn't black art. Its maths and physics. Yes, there is a human element to the system, hence the range of preference, but there is a theoretical optimum for every car and that can be calculated.

I wrote a pretty simple spreadsheet when speccing some Penske 3 ways for my kit car, which calculated ideal spring rates and damper curves. The specialist I bought the dampers from did the same. The numbers agreed and the car drives brilliantly. Its not that hard...

[Petrus]

Ceiling=universe

a maximum limit; vertical boundary... and perception is reality.

Good point about the tyres and tyre pressure btw. It´s where it all is limited; thé contact with the road.

Ah, but AdamR28, math, crunching numbers is a black art for most. Even non numbers crunching, allignment of the car is none to easy to get done correctly.
In this age of superficial browsing and instant gratification, doing the legwork, putting in some concentrated éffort is no longer the norm. ´Nespresso.´ Need I say more?

[SV-3]

Anyway, @R.Sointment, how are you doing?

[AdamR28]

Ah, but AdamR28, math, crunching numbers is a black art for most. Even non numbers crunching, allignment of the car is none to easy to get done correctly.
In this age of superficial browsing and instant gratification, doing the legwork, putting in some concentrated éffort is no longer the norm. ´Nespresso.´ Need I say more?

I agree - but - my beef (issue) is that its the specialists telling us it's black art, and then charging through the nose for it.

Car alignment is easy if you can hold the right end of a spanner and give half a sh1t about attention to detail. Its just people have been put off by 'specialists' telling us it's impossible and black magic and you'd better leave it to them.

I actually run a small side company which specialises in alignment and suspension setup (and driver tuition). I encourage my customers to stick around while I'm working on their cars, and explain what's happening as I go. Nearly everyone then has the confidence to take their car away, make changes themselves in the future, and correlate those to what they feel in the car - because they understand, rather than just being told they can't.

But yes, the age of instant gratification... it's a big part of what's wrong with world right now.

[Zxrob]

I agree - but - my beef (issue) is that its the specialists telling us it's black art, and then charging through the nose for it.

Car alignment is easy if you can hold the right end of a spanner and give half a sh1t about attention to detail. Its just people have been put off by 'specialists' telling us it's impossible and black magic and you'd better leave it to them.

Adam
You obviously know your stuff, reading you posts and comments proves that, attention to detail and problem solving as you will know is a must, what I was trying to get over is that the majority will not be in your position and probably not want to put the effort in to get there and be relying on stuff they read or hear about, its an old saying but a very true one "a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous"

Rob

[AdamR28]

I getcha - and in that case, I guess, choose someone to consult who does know their stuff and charges a fair price

Which also leads to 'a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous'... as that's often what you get on forums.. and 'you get what you pay for'.

[Dev]

Suspension as always been referred to as "the black art" in the motorbike world, the correct set up of a sports car or bike for fast, compliant, driving or riding is a specialist job, the problem is, there are so many opinions out there by folks who know basically fook all but have a good google search history and, their piloting skills couldn't tell the difference between a good and poor set up, lets face it, most wont bother checking the tyre pressures so what do that tell you

So funny because its true.

The thing is, suspension isn't black art. Its maths and physics. Yes, there is a human element to the system, hence the range of preference, but there is a theoretical optimum for every car and that can be calculated.

I wrote a pretty simple spreadsheet when speccing some Penske 3 ways for my kit car, which calculated ideal spring rates and damper curves. The specialist I bought the dampers from did the same. The numbers agreed and the car drives brilliantly. Its not that hard...

 I wholeheartedly agree. What most people do not realize is that it seems like a black art because so many with Taiwanese coilovers believe they are roughly the same as other systems. Without any bases of comparison they lump in all coilovers as being equal when it comes to comfort and performance. 

 Any company like BR that allows you to change spring rates dramatically without changing the damping curves in a coilover system needs to be avoided. They convince their buyers that their system has a lot of flexibility with changing spring rates to suit bad roads when they complain about it. The BR coilovers are so bad that you will actually lose traction and it can be unpredictable even for a track application with people fighting with the rest of their suspension settings to get them to work. This isn't just for our car its a problem with the industry as a whole.

 What they don't also realize is that black art math has already been done by real suspension experts from the USA, Europe and Japan where they make an actual quality product that has been tested specifically for that car. Bottom line is to buy quality dampers made for the car and then stuff like alignment and other things are easily tuned because they will work in harmony.   
 I have seen too many people fighting with their suspension until they realized the problem is with the dampers. 

[Petrus]

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[R.Sointment]

Thoroughly swamped! All the detail I could ask for which is great.
All this has solidly confirmed I don't want them on my car, I'll try and sell them eventually, if I ever reach the post count to get into the parts for sale section...
... which as a professional lurker is likely to be a while! 😂

And maybe at some point even get round to actually getting the work done!
Expect an update any time within the next decade or so 👍🏻

[Topdownman]

Thoroughly swamped! All the detail I could ask for which is great.
All this has solidly confirmed I don't want them on my car, I'll try and sell them eventually, if I ever reach the post count to get into the parts for sale section...
... which as a professional lurker is likely to be a while! 😂

And maybe at some point even get round to actually getting the work done!
Expect an update any time within the next decade or so 👍🏻

You are only 4 posts away from the sales section so hopefully by spring you  will have enough posts (note I didnt say which spring!).

What I take from all the posts above is that the move to coilovers is one you should do when you are sure they are what you want for your car and driving style/plans and not as an alternative for a cheaper suspension refresh than replacing everything with oem.

The lowering springs vs standard springs is a whole different debate but not as contentious possibly as most manufacturers do offer lowering springs as an option which validates them a little. If you dont want the look of lowering springs then you are probably safest with the standard ones.

A suspension refresh is something that every 2 needs though if it hasnt been done!

Let us know how you get on.