Suspension refresh, what gains?

[Carolyn]

How odd this thread got commented on today, last night i ordered a full set of new shocks an springs, all OEM. 

Couldn't agree more. Greatchoice.

[Ardent]

How odd this thread got commented on today, last night i ordered a full set of new shocks an springs, all OEM. 

Well played.

[Mark A]

Sorry off track but has anybody across the pond "Cough" Dev tried the S3 coilovers?

[shnazzle]

Sorry off track but has anybody across the pond "Cough" Dev tried the S3 coilovers?

He's here as well you know both sides of the pond

[Smithy]

It's recently been confirmed the Celica front mounts are the same. And the KYB now come with sealed bearings, rather than the originals which didn't.  Japan Parts/Akisha also have sealed bearings. 

A length of 6mm fuel line fitted & glued on the underside of the top mount should stop road grit getting up to the bearing.

Thanks Gaz. i'm just about to order Toyota Celica 1.8 16v 1999-2005 Front Suspension Strut Top Mounts & Bearings
from ebay.

[Beachbum957]

Buy known quality top mounts like KYB.  I bought a set of cheap off brand mounts off eBay and the top bearings failed in under 20,000 miles.

[Dev]

S3 coilovers

I never heard of them. Do you have a link.

[Hammond]

S3 coilovers

I never heard of them. Do you have a link.

I don't think they have a website however they have a instagram account; s3suspension. They do look fairly generic and come with swift springs as standard which may or may not just be a marketing strategy. The company is run by Kevin Meacham aka "kmeachy" who is quite present in the US mr2 scene if I'm not mistaken?

"Togue Time" was gifted a set and he gives quite an honest review and I believe he still runs them;

[Dev]

S3 coilovers

I never heard of them. Do you have a link.

I don't think they have a website however they have a instagram account; s3suspension. They do look fairly generic and come with swift springs as standard which may or may not just be a marketing strategy. The company is run by Kevin Meacham aka "kmeachy" who is quite present in the US mr2 scene if I'm not mistaken?

 There have been a few start ups in the past from some performance shops that claimed to make their own sets. They claimed they researched them and would have a testimonial from a member in the group that was getting a free set if they set up a group buy going on their behalf. They often avoid where they are made until pressed. 
When probed with questions like where are they made and so forth we find out they are the same Taiwanese coilover bodies. It may have been revamped with different springs and other things but they are all crippled because they use the same cartridge inserts.

 What I would do is start asking questions
 1. Where are they made? If they don't know its surely Taiwan or Korea.
 2. What is the range of adjustment. If its more than 24 its a give away.
 3. Spring rates. Can they be changed. If they say yes its a give away they are the same old.
 4. Where to get them rebuilt. If they mentioned cartridges you know for sure they are the same old.
 
  If they say the coilovers are somewhat fixed and have limited adjustment range then they pass the first round. If you take a coilover and open up the valve all the way open it can damaged the strut, most do not know this, that is why the range is limited.

   Its very hard to beat the name brand manufactures. This includes KYB, Koni and the others that are made in-house by multimillion dollar reputable companies that have an engineering staff. That is what is required to get it right.
 I have heard that the Tiwanese coilovers are wholesaled for as low as $300 a set, just imagine the margins and the incentive to rebrand and sell them.

[Mark A]

They seem to be only on FB and IG, mainly a Honda specialist. If you search FB it will come up as https://www.facebook.com/S3Suspension. They seem to use IG as the main selling forum,  they are supporting a number of track MR2s

[Dev]

I finished watching the video and I actually like the guy from his previous videos. It seems like a modified version of the same Taiwanese coilovers with 32 adjustment points. The springs are too stiff for road use.
I would pass on these and instead buy a proper street coilover that has a twin tube construction or just purchase a new set of KYBs.  For racing anything goes so maybe its modified to be good I don't know but I would rather have a set of Ohlins or Tein Monoflex. 

[Mark A]

Ohlins rarer than hens teeth!

[Dev]

Ohlins rarer than hens teeth!

  There is a guy that did really well on a set of KW V3 with modified springs.
 Generally a set of street coilovers that are made for comfort on real roads are not suppose to be this good for a purely race application especially going against cars well above its class. The owner told me that they worked really well.

https://www.spyderchat.com/threads/ultimate-street-car-challenge.134753/

 There are plenty of people that have done well on Koni or even a completely stock car as far track times go but its not exactly the goals of street suspension.
 For the street its not so much about speed or even ultimate grip, its more about feel especially for the inexperienced driver that is looking for a better drive to put a smile on his or her face. A better drive starts with with a balanced forgiving  car near the limits for a rewarding drive or if the car goes over the limit for accident avoidance.  When we use all out race suspension on the street it can be very unforgiving on a knifes edge if it gets unsettled which is what you don't want. Very different goals.

 For most people a street coilover can also be exceptional on a track for a weekend racer before you would want to explore race options. 
 

[Benlake]

I tracked mine with 14 year old stock suspension with a 2zz and it was like a bowl of jelly. Since then its had poly bushing, bigger anti roll bar, new drop links, bc coil overs, semi slicks, front brace and poly bushed engine mounts. On the track it's in a different league compared to how it drove before the mods, but on uk pot holed roads you bounce over every little bump. When you do find a smooth road though the handling is amazing. As it's not a daily driver I like that it's a bit of an experience to drive it.

[Iain]

I tracked mine with 14 year old stock suspension with a 2zz and it was like a bowl of jelly. Since then its had poly bushing, bigger anti roll bar, new drop links, bc coil overs, semi slicks, front brace and poly bushed engine mounts. On the track it's in a different league compared to how it drove before the mods, but on uk pot holed roads you bounce over every little bump. When you do find a smooth road though the handling is amazing. As it's not a daily driver I like that it's a bit of an experience to drive it.

Im planning to head down the same route as you minus the coilovers and engine mounts. My car isnt a daily, more weekend fun and track days but the ride coilovers gives on the road would drive me insane.

So im aiming to have a good comprimise between track and road use. Polybush, bigger anti roll bars and a mid chassis brace are on the list.

Did you find your car harder to drive on track after all the mods? One thing i worry about is taking the fun factor out of the car by changing to much

[1979scotte]

I tracked mine with 14 year old stock suspension with a 2zz and it was like a bowl of jelly. Since then its had poly bushing, bigger anti roll bar, new drop links, bc coil overs, semi slicks, front brace and poly bushed engine mounts. On the track it's in a different league compared to how it drove before the mods, but on uk pot holed roads you bounce over every little bump. When you do find a smooth road though the handling is amazing. As it's not a daily driver I like that it's a bit of an experience to drive it.

Im planning to head down the same route as you minus the coilovers and engine mounts. My car isnt a daily, more weekend fun and track days but the ride coilovers gives on the road would drive me insane.

So im aiming to have a good comprimise between track and road use. Polybush, bigger anti roll bars and a mid chassis brace are on the list.

Did you find your car harder to drive on track after all the mods? One thing i worry about is taking the fun factor out of the car by changing to much

Have you been in a mk3 with coilovers?
They're not for everyone certainly but I've had MeisterR on all 3 of mine and it's never driven me insane.
However with an unmodified engine stock is probably best.

[Iain]

I tracked mine with 14 year old stock suspension with a 2zz and it was like a bowl of jelly. Since then its had poly bushing, bigger anti roll bar, new drop links, bc coil overs, semi slicks, front brace and poly bushed engine mounts. On the track it's in a different league compared to how it drove before the mods, but on uk pot holed roads you bounce over every little bump. When you do find a smooth road though the handling is amazing. As it's not a daily driver I like that it's a bit of an experience to drive it.

Im planning to head down the same route as you minus the coilovers and engine mounts. My car isnt a daily, more weekend fun and track days but the ride coilovers gives on the road would drive me insane.

So im aiming to have a good comprimise between track and road use. Polybush, bigger anti roll bars and a mid chassis brace are on the list.

Did you find your car harder to drive on track after all the mods? One thing i worry about is taking the fun factor out of the car by changing to much

Have you been in a mk3 with coilovers?
They're not for everyone certainly but I've had MeisterR on all 3 of mine and it's never driven me insane.
However with an unmodified engine stock is probably best.

Not been in a mk3 but been in other cars with them and the ride is too harsh for my liking.

[Benlake]

Im planning to head down the same route as you minus the coilovers and engine mounts. My car isnt a daily, more weekend fun and track days but the ride coilovers gives on the road would drive me insane.

So im aiming to have a good comprimise between track and road use. Polybush, bigger anti roll bars and a mid chassis brace are on the list.

Did you find your car harder to drive on track after all the mods? One thing i worry about is taking the fun factor out of the car by changing to much
[/quote]

With the worn suspension on track it felt like we had max'ed out the performance after a few hours and the suspension / tyres were the limiting factor. With the mods it now feels like the driver is the limiting factor, but if any thing it feels more controllable just at higher speeds.

On the road the coilovers on softest setting aren't too bad, I think the engine mounts and semi slicks made a bigger difference.

By the time you replace dampers / springs / top mounts / rubber gaiters etc it probably doesn't work much more expensive.

[1979scotte]

I tracked mine with 14 year old stock suspension with a 2zz and it was like a bowl of jelly. Since then its had poly bushing, bigger anti roll bar, new drop links, bc coil overs, semi slicks, front brace and poly bushed engine mounts. On the track it's in a different league compared to how it drove before the mods, but on uk pot holed roads you bounce over every little bump. When you do find a smooth road though the handling is amazing. As it's not a daily driver I like that it's a bit of an experience to drive it.

Im planning to head down the same route as you minus the coilovers and engine mounts. My car isnt a daily, more weekend fun and track days but the ride coilovers gives on the road would drive me insane.

So im aiming to have a good comprimise between track and road use. Polybush, bigger anti roll bars and a mid chassis brace are on the list.

Did you find your car harder to drive on track after all the mods? One thing i worry about is taking the fun factor out of the car by changing to much

Have you been in a mk3 with coilovers?
They're not for everyone certainly but I've had MeisterR on all 3 of mine and it's never driven me insane.
However with an unmodified engine stock is probably best.

Not been in a mk3 but been in other cars with them and the ride is too harsh for my liking.

See if you can try someone's car out they can be good fun in the right circumstances.
Although a decent set of koni are pretty good too.

[Iain]

[quote/]

See if you can try someone's car out they can be good fun in the right circumstances.
Although a decent set of koni are pretty good too.
[/quote]

As is the standard car 😜

Dont get me wrong, coilovers have definately crossed my mind more than once, but all i kept thinking was im going to ruin something that is pretty hard to beat as standard.

Hence my reason to stay stock. When i replace it for OEM, i know i'll be happy.

[almitch1]

This thread is a really interesting read for a newbie like myself... Is changing the suspension a diy job for a novice or its it a garage job?

Thanks

[1979scotte]

This thread is a really interesting read for a newbie like myself... Is changing the suspension a diy job for a novice or its it a garage job?

Thanks

I changed to coilovers in a pub car park its not rocket science.

[almitch1]

This thread is a really interesting read for a newbie like myself... Is changing the suspension a diy job for a novice or its it a garage job?

Thanks

I changed to coilovers in a pub car park its not rocket science.

That sounds amazing.... jack up the car, grab a few pints do the work few more pints.... Collect the car in morning.

WALLOP

[1979scotte]

This thread is a really interesting read for a newbie like myself... Is changing the suspension a diy job for a novice or its it a garage job?

Thanks

I changed to coilovers in a pub car park its not rocket science.

That sounds amazing.... jack up the car, grab a few pints do the work few more pints.... Collect the car in morning.

WALLOP

The pub was closed down.
It was a former members house/storage unit.

Don't drink and play with heavy duty springs.

[K T M Rider]

Most importantly has anyone ever had a suspension refresh and said

"Meh that was a waste made no difference"

I doubt it.

Well, actually........

We have a 2003 and replaced the struts (probably originals with a lot of miles) with new KYB. With stock springs, the difference was "not much".

Have to wonder what tyres you were running......

Fitted new KYBs and Teins to my 2003 (sitting on 65k) and the driving fun factor went from 30% (pretty awful) to nigh on 100%.

I'd just had 4 new AD08Rs fitted a few weeks before......

The previous tyres had been old and worn, but had worked so much better with old, worn suspension !

The stiff Yokos provided much sharper steering / much more immediate initial turn in to a corner than the tyres they replaced (presumably) leading to much more immediate transfer of cornering forces into the worn suspension.....The car sometimes settling into a corner more or less ok.....sometimes wobbling fairly alarmingly..... and you could never predict which 

It could also be pretty floaty in a straight line (backroads especially).

Switched to the new KYBs and Teins and it was utterly transformed.

New Yokos + old suspension?

Felt like a worn out and borderline dangerous little 'fun' car with most of the fun oddly missing.

New Yokos + new suspension? 

Felt like a taut, supple and FUN thoroughbred sports car, with fabulous handling and grip.

Old tyres + old suspension?

The driving experience was (to some extent) somewhere in the middle between the two extremes on Yokos.

So like I said at the start have to wonder what tyres you were running