Suspension refresh, what gains?

[Beachbum957]

Most importantly has anyone ever had a suspension refresh and said

"Meh that was a waste made no difference"

I doubt it.

Well, actually........

We have a 2003 and replaced the struts (probably originals with a lot of miles) with new KYB. With stock springs, the difference was "not much".

Have to wonder what tyres you were running......

Fitted new KYBs and Teins to my 2003 (sitting on 65k) and the driving fun factor went from 30% (pretty awful) to nigh on 100%.

Almost new Yoko S-Drives.  But that was using the stock springs.  If you change springs from OEM to Tein, that should have a significant difference. If the original struts are worn, or lost their gas pressure, new struts will seem a bit stiffer, at least initially. We have run the following setups, all using S-Drives:

• OEM with stock springs - OK for a daily driver
• New KYB with stock springs - No real change after a couple hundred miles.
• Koni inserts with stock springs - Less compression damping, so a better ride, but with more control - not a huge change, but worth it
• New KYB with Tein - Much stiffer than stock, more responsive handling, but the damping was mismatched with insufficient rebound
• Koni inserts with Tein - A very noticeable difference and a big improvement as we could match damping to springs
• Koni inserts with H&R springs - Handling about the same as Tein, but slightly less lowering, seems slightly stiffer with less bottoming, more linear springs in the front

Conclusions:  The KYB work about the same as OEM (no surprise as they made the OEM), but would be an improvement over old worn struts.  Koni inserts work nicely with stock springs and give a slightly better ride. KYB struts work OK with stiffer springs, but the damping is mismatched so on certain roads you can get a sort of porpoising in the front, and some lack of suspension control on rough roads.  Koni's work very well with Tein or H&R springs. 

But the sweet spots for us have been the Koni's and H&R for handling, and Koni's and stock springs for a nice daily driver compromise.

[Petrus]

I'd just had 4 new AD08Rs fitted a few weeks before......

For mé they are thé ´norm´ tyre.

Stiff enough for precise steering yet comfortable enough on real world tarmac and the grip...; regardsless of whether they grip a lot or whatever, they have such a wide spread between the optimals grip slip angles. They simply do not bréak away. They start giving and keep on giving till they give too much in a linear way.

I am thé one for trying things but I am sticking with these. They are a good measure of things for me.

[Dev]

I'd just had 4 new AD08Rs fitted a few weeks before......

For mé they are thé ´norm´ tyre.

Stiff enough for precise steering yet comfortable enough on real world tarmac and the grip...; regardsless of whether they grip a lot or whatever, they have such a wide spread between the optimals grip slip angles. They simply do not bréak away. They start giving and keep on giving till they give too much in a linear way.

I am thé one for trying things but I am sticking with these. They are a good measure of things for me.

Most people don't realize that the tires and the seats are part of the suspension system.
I like stiff sidewall tires which are rare because the industry shifted towards making soft sidewall tires for factory cars that plus size so they dont have a harsh ride or bend wheels. When you find a tire that has a stiff sidewall construction that can still maintain its contact patch at the right tire pressures its heaven because you do not have to be dangerous to enjoy the feel of driving at reasonable speeds with plenty of safety margin. The car came with very stiff sidewalls from the factory and now its hard to find a good equivalent.

[Petrus]

Most people don't realize that the tires and the seats are part of the suspension system.

A slomo shot of an F1 tyre bouncing over a curb should solve that ;-)

[K T M Rider]

We have run the following setups, all using S-Drives:

• OEM with stock springs - OK for a daily driver
• New KYB with stock springs - No real change after a couple hundred miles.
• Koni inserts with stock springs - Less compression damping, so a better ride, but with more control - not a huge change, but worth it
• New KYB with Tein - Much stiffer than stock, more responsive handling, but the damping was mismatched with insufficient rebound
• Koni inserts with Tein - A very noticeable difference and a big improvement as we could match damping to springs
• Koni inserts with H&R springs - Handling about the same as Tein, but slightly less lowering, seems slightly stiffer with less bottoming, more linear springs in the front

Conclusions:  The KYB work about the same as OEM (no surprise as they made the OEM), but would be an improvement over old worn struts.  Koni inserts work nicely with stock springs and give a slightly better ride. KYB struts work OK with stiffer springs, but the damping is mismatched so on certain roads you can get a sort of porpoising in the front, and some lack of suspension control on rough roads.  Koni's work very well with Tein or H&R springs. 

But the sweet spots for us have been the Koni's and H&R for handling, and Koni's and stock springs for a nice daily driver compromise.

That's an impressive level of spring / damper experimentation for sure.

A little of my MK3 history.....

I joined this forum in 2010. At the time the Toyo T1R was a regularly recommended tyre choice on here and I don't remember much talk about the value of regular suspension refreshes.......

I suspect many owners were ok with running T1Rs on 60/70/80,000 mile old dampers because the soft sidewalls they were renowned for would have to some extent made any tailing off in damper performance less obvious to those owners than a stiffer sidewalled tyre.

One reason I suspect this is I ran my 2nd MK3 from 64k to 75k on Kumho KU31s, a tyre also known for their soft sidewalls. At the time (2011/2012) the car felt superb to me, but any MR2 will when you've been used to 1 1/2 tonnes of FWD diesel.

When I came back on here in 2017, you could say things had moved on a little. The most recommended tyre on the forum was now the Yokohama AD08R and there was alot more talk about the value of regular suspension refreshes......

(Ok so Scotte had joined the forum 😀)

In my experience the AD08R (with its steel reinforced sidewalls) is like a huge spotlight on spring / damper performance to an extent that many other tyres simply wouldn't be.

One of the key takeaways for me of running a car on 65k dampers and new AD08Rs was the car's ride and handling became unpredictable. On a UK backroad you couldn't even be sure how the car was going to behave in a straightline (floaty or reasonably composed?) let alone a sharp curve!

I appreciate that my fitment of Teins alongside the new KYBs confuses the issue, however given the straight-line floatiness and cornering unpredictability I'm pretty convinced that Teins or no Teins I would have seen a very significant improvement.....

Maybe my OEM dampers were more shot than yours? 🙂

[Petrus]

I suspect many owners were ok with running T1Rs on 60/70/80,000 mile old dampers because the soft sidewalls they were renowned for would have to some extent made any tailing off in damper performance less obvious to those owners than a stiffer sidewalled tyre.

In my experience the AD08R (with its steel reinforced sidewalls) is like a huge spotlight on spring / damper performance to an extent that many other tyres simply wouldn't be.
One of the key takeaways for me of running a car on 65k dampers and new AD08Rs was the car's ride and handling became unpredictable. On a UK backroad you couldn't even be sure how the car was going to behave in a straightline (floaty or reasonably composed?) let alone a sharp curve!

That Sir, is a pérfect summary of tyres being a crucial and integral part of suspension.

The backdrop is that the OEM fitted tyres had quíte a stiff sidewall.

[Beachbum957]

We have run the following setups, all using S-Drives:

• OEM with stock springs - OK for a daily driver
• New KYB with stock springs - No real change after a couple hundred miles.
• Koni inserts with stock springs - Less compression damping, so a better ride, but with more control - not a huge change, but worth it
• New KYB with Tein - Much stiffer than stock, more responsive handling, but the damping was mismatched with insufficient rebound
• Koni inserts with Tein - A very noticeable difference and a big improvement as we could match damping to springs
• Koni inserts with H&R springs - Handling about the same as Tein, but slightly less lowering, seems slightly stiffer with less bottoming, more linear springs in the front

Conclusions:  The KYB work about the same as OEM (no surprise as they made the OEM), but would be an improvement over old worn struts.  Koni inserts work nicely with stock springs and give a slightly better ride. KYB struts work OK with stiffer springs, but the damping is mismatched so on certain roads you can get a sort of porpoising in the front, and some lack of suspension control on rough roads.  Koni's work very well with Tein or H&R springs. 

But the sweet spots for us have been the Koni's and H&R for handling, and Koni's and stock springs for a nice daily driver compromise.

That's an impressive level of spring / damper experimentation for sure.

Maybe my OEM dampers were more shot than yours? 🙂

We have 2 MR2, a 2002 and a 2003, so we could try different things on each.  We ran the Tein-S springs with new KYB on the 2002 for about 20,000 miles.  Initially, the combination seemed great, but when we ran on some rather rough back roads, it became obvious the damping couldn't quite keep up with the stiffer springs. The 2002 has a lot of bracing and has a stiffer chassis, so the suspension gets worked a bit harder. So we went to the Koni's and they really made a difference.

With stock springs on the 2003, new KYB and even new Koni's made a difference, just not as much.

[Iain]

Well this is quite a disappointment.

After having my new oem parts in the garage for a while today i finally got them fitted. All went well, its a suprising straight forward job as ive never done it before.

Been itiching to get them fitted to feel the difference it would make and my first test drive was very unwelming.

On the whole it feels 90% of what it felt like before. Exactly the same ride quality and the only difference i can feel is its slightly more ridged and firm/planted in the corners, but really not much.

Kinda wished id never bothered and im very confused about all the comments on here about how different and better it would be.

[shnazzle]

Well this is quite a disappointment.

After having my new oem parts in the garage for a while today i finally got them fitted. All went well, its a suprising straight forward job as ive never done it before.

Been itiching to get them fitted to feel the difference it would make and my first test drive was very unwelming.

On the whole it feels 90% of what it felt like before. Exactly the same ride quality and the only difference i can feel is its slightly more ridged and firm/planted in the corners, but really not much.

Kinda wished id never bothered and im very confused about all the comments on here about how different and better it would be.

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Miles don't tell the whole tale.
My pre-fl had 113k miles when I sold it and up to the point where it got scrapped years later, MOT didn't mention a leaking strut. It drove great.
My 43k mile FL on the other hand had a leaking strut by 50k, hence I went full coilover.

Also depends how you drive in general. Beachbum above obviously does a fair bit of rough-housing wiht the car, as does thetyrant. I have driven a car with fresh KYBs and new shocks on the same day as our stock FL car and while the difference was 100% there, just driving around town it wasn't shattering. But the truth would come out on a hefty b-Road blast.

Rest assured that your roadholding and overall mechanical grip is now better, which contributes to better safety that might some day keep you out of a bad situation, where your old struts may have failed you.

[Iain]

Well this is quite a disappointment.

After having my new oem parts in the garage for a while today i finally got them fitted. All went well, its a suprising straight forward job as ive never done it before.

Been itiching to get them fitted to feel the difference it would make and my first test drive was very unwelming.

On the whole it feels 90% of what it felt like before. Exactly the same ride quality and the only difference i can feel is its slightly more ridged and firm/planted in the corners, but really not much.

Kinda wished id never bothered and im very confused about all the comments on here about how different and better it would be.

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Miles don't tell the whole tale.
My pre-fl had 113k miles when I sold it and up to the point where it got scrapped years later, MOT didn't mention a leaking strut. It drove great.
My 43k mile FL on the other hand had a leaking strut by 50k, hence I went full coilover.

Also depends how you drive in general. Beachbum above obviously does a fair bit of rough-housing wiht the car, as does thetyrant. I have driven a car with fresh KYBs and new shocks on the same day as our stock FL car and while the difference was 100% there, just driving around town it wasn't shattering. But the truth would come out on a hefty b-Road blast.

Rest assured that your roadholding and overall mechanical grip is now better, which contributes to better safety that might some day keep you out of a bad situation, where your old struts may have failed you.

I took in a good mixture off different driving on my run out, including the b-road blast, was still difficult to find much improvement.

I was confident there was nothing wrong with my car when i got it, as i stated in my opening post on this thread but the amount of people that commented (and not just on this thread) saying there would be a big noticable difference conviced me to change them.

[1979scotte]

Well this is quite a disappointment.

After having my new oem parts in the garage for a while today i finally got them fitted. All went well, its a suprising straight forward job as ive never done it before.

Been itiching to get them fitted to feel the difference it would make and my first test drive was very unwelming.

On the whole it feels 90% of what it felt like before. Exactly the same ride quality and the only difference i can feel is its slightly more ridged and firm/planted in the corners, but really not much.

Kinda wished id never bothered and im very confused about all the comments on here about how different and better it would be.

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Miles don't tell the whole tale.
My pre-fl had 113k miles when I sold it and up to the point where it got scrapped years later, MOT didn't mention a leaking strut. It drove great.
My 43k mile FL on the other hand had a leaking strut by 50k, hence I went full coilover.

Also depends how you drive in general. Beachbum above obviously does a fair bit of rough-housing wiht the car, as does thetyrant. I have driven a car with fresh KYBs and new shocks on the same day as our stock FL car and while the difference was 100% there, just driving around town it wasn't shattering. But the truth would come out on a hefty b-Road blast.

Rest assured that your roadholding and overall mechanical grip is now better, which contributes to better safety that might some day keep you out of a bad situation, where your old struts may have failed you.

I took in a good mixture off different driving on my run out, including the b-road blast, was still difficult to find much improvement.

I was confident there was nothing wrong with my car when i got it, as i stated in my opening post on this thread but the amount of people that commented (and not just on this thread) saying there would be a big noticable difference conviced me to change them.

Tyres?
Tyre pressures?
Have you had a full 4 wheel alignment?

[Iain]

Well this is quite a disappointment.

After having my new oem parts in the garage for a while today i finally got them fitted. All went well, its a suprising straight forward job as ive never done it before.

Been itiching to get them fitted to feel the difference it would make and my first test drive was very unwelming.

On the whole it feels 90% of what it felt like before. Exactly the same ride quality and the only difference i can feel is its slightly more ridged and firm/planted in the corners, but really not much.

Kinda wished id never bothered and im very confused about all the comments on here about how different and better it would be.

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Miles don't tell the whole tale.
My pre-fl had 113k miles when I sold it and up to the point where it got scrapped years later, MOT didn't mention a leaking strut. It drove great.
My 43k mile FL on the other hand had a leaking strut by 50k, hence I went full coilover.

Also depends how you drive in general. Beachbum above obviously does a fair bit of rough-housing wiht the car, as does thetyrant. I have driven a car with fresh KYBs and new shocks on the same day as our stock FL car and while the difference was 100% there, just driving around town it wasn't shattering. But the truth would come out on a hefty b-Road blast.

Rest assured that your roadholding and overall mechanical grip is now better, which contributes to better safety that might some day keep you out of a bad situation, where your old struts may have failed you.

I took in a good mixture off different driving on my run out, including the b-road blast, was still difficult to find much improvement.

I was confident there was nothing wrong with my car when i got it, as i stated in my opening post on this thread but the amount of people that commented (and not just on this thread) saying there would be a big noticable difference conviced me to change them.

Tyres?
Tyre pressures?
Have you had a full 4 wheel alignment?

Brand new Michelin PS3s. Oem pressures.
No alignment done as yet, but it will be done.

[1979scotte]

Well this is quite a disappointment.

After having my new oem parts in the garage for a while today i finally got them fitted. All went well, its a suprising straight forward job as ive never done it before.

Been itiching to get them fitted to feel the difference it would make and my first test drive was very unwelming.

On the whole it feels 90% of what it felt like before. Exactly the same ride quality and the only difference i can feel is its slightly more ridged and firm/planted in the corners, but really not much.

Kinda wished id never bothered and im very confused about all the comments on here about how different and better it would be.

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Miles don't tell the whole tale.
My pre-fl had 113k miles when I sold it and up to the point where it got scrapped years later, MOT didn't mention a leaking strut. It drove great.
My 43k mile FL on the other hand had a leaking strut by 50k, hence I went full coilover.

Also depends how you drive in general. Beachbum above obviously does a fair bit of rough-housing wiht the car, as does thetyrant. I have driven a car with fresh KYBs and new shocks on the same day as our stock FL car and while the difference was 100% there, just driving around town it wasn't shattering. But the truth would come out on a hefty b-Road blast.

Rest assured that your roadholding and overall mechanical grip is now better, which contributes to better safety that might some day keep you out of a bad situation, where your old struts may have failed you.

I took in a good mixture off different driving on my run out, including the b-road blast, was still difficult to find much improvement.

I was confident there was nothing wrong with my car when i got it, as i stated in my opening post on this thread but the amount of people that commented (and not just on this thread) saying there would be a big noticable difference conviced me to change them.

Tyres?
Tyre pressures?
Have you had a full 4 wheel alignment?

Brand new Michelin PS3s. Oem pressures.
No alignment done as yet, but it will be done.

Alignment makes a big difference.
Never used the PS3 what sizes?

[Beachbum957]

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Absolutely correct. 

Our 2003 had over 130,000 miles on what the original owner claimed were the original struts. But almost all of the miles were easy expressway miles.  Obviously, a very easy life.  They weren't leaking, and the strut rods did not show any wear. New KYB made some difference with stock springs, but not much, even on rough roads. 

On the other hand, the original front struts on the 2002 showed noticeable rod wear and discoloration at about 80,000 miles. They had also lost all gas pressure. Those miles were obviously much harder miles, and the struts needed replaced.

[Iain]

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Absolutely correct. 

Our 2003 had over 130,000 miles on what the original owner claimed were the original struts. But almost all of the miles were easy expressway miles.  Obviously, a very easy life.  They weren't leaking, and the strut rods did not show any wear. New KYB made some difference with stock springs, but not much, even on rough roads. 

On the other hand, the original front struts on the 2002 showed noticeable rod wear and discoloration at about 80,000 miles. They had also lost all gas pressure. Those miles were obviously much harder miles, and the struts needed replaced.

I do agree with this, and theres no real way of telling how bad or good struts are (unless leaking/knocking etc) so its a bit of an unkown.

Please dont get me wrong here, it no bad thing they are all nice an new, and there is an improvement. Its just nowhere near the difference that is said on here alot which i believe is pretty misleading.

@1979scotte
Tyres are 195/50/15s and 215/45/16s.

[Iain]

On the other hand, the original front struts on the 2002 showed noticeable rod wear and discoloration at about 80,000 miles. They had also lost all gas pressure. Those miles were obviously much harder miles, and the struts needed replaced.

Is it possible to refresh struts or is total replacement the only option? Cause on my bike I had the front forks taken apart, replaced seals, replaced oil and they work splendidly since then.

No reason you cant just replace the shockers. Only reason ive replaced the springs is the oem kybs are cheap, £60 all round so makes sense when its all in bits.

[shnazzle]

Sorry you feel the forum lead you down the wrong path @Iain
For the vast majority it will be a big change but as said, it's entirely dependent on the car's history.

You're not the first to say it didn't make a huge difference.
Hopefully these posts will allow people to make a balanced and informed decision

[Iain]

No reason you cant just replace the shockers.

Getting all new would cost me over 500 eur, with 400 being just dampers/shock absorbers. Unless I go for JapKO or Ashika which would be 200 eur.

Only reason ive replaced the springs is the oem kybs are cheap, £60 all round so makes sense when its all in bits.

60 quid for 4 springs? Where did you get them? OEM height or lowered?

PC: did springs change from 2004 to 2005 model? Cause I'm looking on autodoc and some brands say the springs are for Mk.3 to 2004 year.

They were OEM height springs i got from a seller on ebay. Was lucky and got them under a package deal with 15% off. Got my shockers at the same time so the whole lot came to £350 or so.

[Petrus]

Please dont get me wrong here, it no bad thing they are all nice an new, and there is an improvement. Its just nowhere near the difference that is said on here alot which i believe is pretty misleading.

My car had 70K miles of none too spirited yse on it.
Great ride, no reason to swap the shocks and I do really, réally push the limits.
Just a bit of floaty lack of feeling in fast long corners and the chicane like corners... well ´not exact´ is the best description. Mind, that is changing direction from grip limit to grip limit at the rear with the front desperate to find the extra traction to manhandle the car.
Still, quite a good ride.

Now, there is óne highway stretch, three lanes, sweeping bends, some 4-5% climb up a pass. The tarmac angled manage the run off of water and the crux... undulated.
At 130 km/h things became worrying. The float was making the car difficult to steer accurately. It simply did not stay on line. With 3 wide lanes not an issue but navigating instead of precisely tracking??

Went better shocks and well, not much of a change untill flógging the thing. It now stays on ány line I steer it on.
Can do the above mentioned highway incline at 150-160 and don´t go faser because it is public road with other cars.

Bottom line is unless shock have lost the oil, they will keep doing a satisfactory enough job untill you ask more than satisfactory from them. Beyond that new ones show the difference.
With the better shocks the grip the AD08Rs have is jaw dropping. Again something you will only notice if you úse that  grip.

Same with all. Take sway bars. Make no sense at all going adjustable, ´tune´ the set up if you have no issue with the OEM  balance and Whitelines will only be a massive disappointment.

[Zxrob]

Sorry you feel the forum lead you down the wrong path @Iain
For the vast majority it will be a big change but as said, it's entirely dependent on the car's history.

You're not the first to say it didn't make a huge difference.
Hopefully these posts will allow people to make a balanced and informed decision

And wont be the last

Problem being, I will get shot down for this, is, a lot of folks (generalization here) cant tell if a cars suspension is shot or not and do not realize that other things make up the handling package

Rob

[shnazzle]

Sorry you feel the forum lead you down the wrong path @Iain
For the vast majority it will be a big change but as said, it's entirely dependent on the car's history.

You're not the first to say it didn't make a huge difference.
Hopefully these posts will allow people to make a balanced and informed decision

And wont be the last

Problem being, I will get shot down for this, is, a lot of folks (generalization here) cant tell if a cars suspension is shot or not and do not realize that other things make up the handling package

Rob

Very true. I drove around with a snapped spring for months years ago. Wasn't until my wife was driving the car, the bit of spring dislodged and sent the car on a slide that we noticed.


Not much I don't feel on the 2, but then I've been with 2 for like 9 years.

[Iain]

Omg, it's INSANE the prices for KYB 333320 gas strut reach in Europe!!! I've found two sellers in US, one on Amazon for $58 and another website offers them for $22, while otoh in Europe they go up to 150 eur per one strut.

They were OEM height springs i got from a seller on ebay. Was lucky and got them under a package deal with 15% off. Got my shockers at the same time so the whole lot came to £350 or so.

Same seller for shockers as well? Do you by chance have the name of the ebay seller - is he a vendor or a regular person?

Yes same seller. It was 'parts in motion'. They have a website aswell. The deals come up now and again so if you can wait it out theres a decent saving to be had.

[Zxrob]

Sorry you feel the forum lead you down the wrong path @Iain
For the vast majority it will be a big change but as said, it's entirely dependent on the car's history.

You're not the first to say it didn't make a huge difference.
Hopefully these posts will allow people to make a balanced and informed decision

And wont be the last

Problem being, I will get shot down for this, is, a lot of folks (generalization here) cant tell if a cars suspension is shot or not and do not realize that other things make up the handling package

Rob

Very true. I drove around with a snapped spring for months years ago. Wasn't until my wife was driving the car, the bit of spring dislodged and sent the car on a slide that we noticed.

Not much I don't feel on the 2, but then I've been with 2 for like 9 years.

We all "fall fowl" at times

I used to run very expensive Ohlins suspension on my track bikes and had them professionally serviced every year, because, well, "thats the thing folks say is best to do", well I missed a season spending more money on my suspension, did I notice a difference in performance, hmm, nope

Rob

[1979scotte]

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Absolutely correct. 

Our 2003 had over 130,000 miles on what the original owner claimed were the original struts. But almost all of the miles were easy expressway miles.  Obviously, a very easy life.  They weren't leaking, and the strut rods did not show any wear. New KYB made some difference with stock springs, but not much, even on rough roads. 

On the other hand, the original front struts on the 2002 showed noticeable rod wear and discoloration at about 80,000 miles. They had also lost all gas pressure. Those miles were obviously much harder miles, and the struts needed replaced.

I do agree with this, and theres no real way of telling how bad or good struts are (unless leaking/knocking etc) so its a bit of an unkown.

Please dont get me wrong here, it no bad thing they are all nice an new, and there is an improvement. Its just nowhere near the difference that is said on here alot which i believe is pretty misleading.

@1979scotte
Tyres are 195/50/15s and 215/45/16s.

Bigger than I would fit but perfectly fine.

Hopefully you'll be more impressed after an alignment.

[Dev]

I went back and read all of the posts. I don't see how you were miss led in some way to fuel your disappointment. Everyone's statement added context to the overall state of the suspension which was pretty much a depends situation.
My own suspension was shot at around 70k miles.  It was fine for most things but when I pushed it around a corner It was exhibiting mid corner float that felt uneasy. It was fixed with a good upgrade.