Suspension refresh, what gains?

[Iain]

I went back and read all of the posts. I don't see how you were miss led in some way to fuel your disappointment. Everyone's statement added context to the overall state of the suspension which was pretty much a depends situation.
My own suspension was shot at around 70k miles.  It was fine for most things but when I pushed it around a corner It was exhibiting mid corner float that felt uneasy. It was fixed with a good upgrade.

So the words 'revalation' 'entering night and day' 'transform the car' 'felt like brand new' 'you'll notice alot' isnt misleading. Ok.

[Iain]

Would just like to add that i feel im coming across as very ungrateful for peoples comments, which im not at all.

I do realise that many of the replies come from there own personal experience and many years on the forum witnessing others.

Unfortunately in my case it didnt work out as said. Majority have been very impressed with a refresh, guess im in the minority.

[1979scotte]

Would just like to add that i feel im coming across as very ungrateful for peoples comments, which im not at all.

I do realise that many of the replies come from there own personal experience and many years on the forum witnessing others.

Unfortunately in my case it didnt work out as said. Majority have been very impressed with a refresh, guess im in the minority.

You are yet to have an alignment so let's wait until after that.

I take you at face value. You didn't find any improvement fair enough. Sorry you're disappointed.

I was thinking maybe you had crap tyres but you don't. Although I have never come across anybody on a roadster using PS3.
 

[Topdownman]

Sorry to hear that you are disappointed so far but as said, you need an alignment before you will feel the end result. Hopefully that will improve things for you.

If your old units were OK, you should be able to sell them on which will reduce the cost of the new ones and at least you know they are all good now and wont need doing for years.

Is there any chance that the suspension had been done in the past but you have no record of it? Bit of a long shot but you never know!

My fingers are crossed for you.

[1979scotte]

Sorry to hear that you are disappointed so far but as said, you need an alignment before you will feel the end result. Hopefully that will improve things for you.

If your old units were OK, you should be able to sell them on which will reduce the cost of the new ones and at least you know they are all good now and wont need doing for years.

Is there any chance that the suspension had been done in the past but you have no record of it? Bit of a long shot but you never know!

My fingers are crossed for you.

That's a good point.
If somebody else has already had the work done 25k miles ago they won't feel that knackered.

[Iain]

Sorry to hear that you are disappointed so far but as said, you need an alignment before you will feel the end result. Hopefully that will improve things for you.

If your old units were OK, you should be able to sell them on which will reduce the cost of the new ones and at least you know they are all good now and wont need doing for years.

Is there any chance that the suspension had been done in the past but you have no record of it? Bit of a long shot but you never know!

My fingers are crossed for you.

Will hopefully get it booked in for alignment this week.

I think im gonna keep the old units for the future if i decide to go down the koni route, one never knows what they'll want to do next 😃

The peace of mind knowing all is new and well is a good feeling so its definately not a waste of effort and money.

The car came with a full service history so i doubt it has had new suspension in the past.

[Iain]

Would just like to add that i feel im coming across as very ungrateful for peoples comments, which im not at all.

I do realise that many of the replies come from there own personal experience and many years on the forum witnessing others.

Unfortunately in my case it didnt work out as said. Majority have been very impressed with a refresh, guess im in the minority.

You are yet to have an alignment so let's wait until after that.

I take you at face value. You didn't find any improvement fair enough. Sorry you're disappointed.

I was thinking maybe you had crap tyres but you don't. Although I have never come across anybody on a roadster using PS3.
 

The Michelins - i wanted a top quality tyre that would work in all situations/weathers and would be able to cope with the odd track day i do. I couldnt find much else that fitted the bill, especially in oem (or close to) sizes.

[Call the midlife!]

I went back and read all of the posts. I don't see how you were miss led in some way to fuel your disappointment. Everyone's statement added context to the overall state of the suspension which was pretty much a depends situation.
My own suspension was shot at around 70k miles.  It was fine for most things but when I pushed it around a corner It was exhibiting mid corner float that felt uneasy. It was fixed with a good upgrade.

So the words 'revalation' 'entering night and day' 'transform the car' 'felt like brand new' 'you'll notice alot' isnt misleading. Ok.

For some people who've performed the various refreshes then for them the differences have been as described above in one way or another.

I don't believe anybody here sets out to deliberately mislead with the things they post but at the end of the day it's down to the end user to weigh up the pros and cons relative to their own individual research/methodology and decide what's best for them.
In the main part it's the people who've refreshed theirs when they've recognised failings in the performance that have noticed the bigger improvements, as you say you didn't think there was anything really "wrong" with yours beforehand then maybe that's where the root of your "disappointment" lies?

[Beachbum957]

Shocks wear out over time, making it difficult to determine when they need to be replaced, unless there is an obvious sign of failure, such as a leak.  A common recommendation is to replace on mileage.  But that is only a general gauge of how much wear exists.  Sometimes, they only way to know if a strut is worn is to replace them.

KYB made the OEM struts, so they should feel about the same as OEM. If you replace with them and the ones on the car are OEM or KYB and are still pretty good, you may not notice much difference. On the other hand, changing to a different strut brand or inserts like Koni, you may notice a distinct difference even if the struts being replaced are relatively new and in very good condition.

Different brands may have different damping curves or different gas pressures (which effects spring rate slightly) For example, Koni's have less compression damping and less gas pressure than KYB, but adjustable rebound.  So they may seem slightly softer on hitting a bump, but have more control over overall suspension movement.

One thing we did notice is new KYB struts (and others) seem a bit stiffer than struts with even a few hundred miles.  This could be because of tight clearances or even seal friction.  But after that initial "break-in", they stay very consistent for many miles.  So new struts may feel much stiffer, but the real test is how they work after a few hundred miles.

[Gaz mr-s]

I was thinking maybe you had crap tyres but you don't. Although I have never come across anybody on a roadster using PS3.
 

Ditto.  I'm looking for tyres soon, & saw the PS3 mentioned on f'book, so looked them up. They've been around since 2010, & the most recent tests were 2016.  They won't be my choice, but not going to be awful.

[1979scotte]

I was thinking maybe you had crap tyres but you don't. Although I have never come across anybody on a roadster using PS3.
 

Ditto.  I'm looking for tyres soon, & saw the PS3 mentioned on f'book, so looked them up. They've been around since 2010, & the most recent tests were 2016.  They won't be my choice, but not going to be awful.

I only look at pfl sizes anyway.
Don't like the way the cars drive on wider rubber.

[Iain]

I was thinking maybe you had crap tyres but you don't. Although I have never come across anybody on a roadster using PS3.
 

Ditto.  I'm looking for tyres soon, & saw the PS3 mentioned on f'book, so looked them up. They've been around since 2010, & the most recent tests were 2016.  They won't be my choice, but not going to be awful.

What else is on your short list?

I almost pressed the button on some toyos tr1 but no stock rear size put me off

So far im very impressed with the ps3s. Grip is far improved from the oem bridgestones that were on previous.

[Gaz mr-s]

I was thinking maybe you had crap tyres but you don't. Although I have never come across anybody on a roadster using PS3.
 

Ditto.  I'm looking for tyres soon, & saw the PS3 mentioned on f'book, so looked them up. They've been around since 2010, & the most recent tests were 2016.  They won't be my choice, but not going to be awful.

What else is on your short list?

I almost pressed the button on some toyos tr1 but no stock rear size put me off

So far im very impressed with the ps3s. Grip is far improved from the oem bridgestones that were on previous.

I had a car with Falken ZE310. I sold it, bought another, & would have gone 310's again, but one size was unavailable, so looked up Tyre tests & the standout tyre (apart from ADO8's) was Hankook K125. In most tests where both have been used, the Hankook beats the Falken.

But with Covid/Brexit the prices have shot up.  Before Brexit there were loads of ad's on ebay, & I bought the last 4 sets from Germany. No more, I suspect.....
I will also probably buy 195 front as my new rims are 7".    The standard 185 don't look good on them.

[Gaz mr-s]

On the other hand, changing to a different strut brand or inserts like Koni,

KYB also make inserts. Are inserts just plug&play with OEM struts, I mean is it a simple job or possible to just take the old shocks out and replacing them with inserts?

The Koni are valved for the MR2.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSnNZt3NiI

[SV-3]

On the other hand, changing to a different strut brand or inserts like Koni,

KYB also make inserts. Are inserts just plug&play with OEM struts, I mean is it a simple job or possible to just take the old shocks out and replacing them with inserts?

The Koni are valved for the MR2.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXSnNZt3NiI

Yup, but I was asking about the KYB inserts.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/kyb-363045/make/toyota/model/mr2
Or did KYB make inserts only for older models of MR2s?
Also, why do every year of Mk3 have different parts number for KYB struts? Did they seriously change the design every single year?

I'm puzzled.
Doesn't each corner have a different number, but the numbers are the same for each year - as per the table you posted?

[K T M Rider]

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Absolutely correct. 

Our 2003 had over 130,000 miles on what the original owner claimed were the original struts. But almost all of the miles were easy expressway miles.  Obviously, a very easy life.  They weren't leaking, and the strut rods did not show any wear. New KYB made some difference with stock springs, but not much, even on rough roads. 

On the other hand, the original front struts on the 2002 showed noticeable rod wear and discoloration at about 80,000 miles. They had also lost all gas pressure. Those miles were obviously much harder miles, and the struts needed replaced.

I do agree with this, and theres no real way of telling how bad or good struts are (unless leaking/knocking etc) so its a bit of an unkown.

Please dont get me wrong here, it no bad thing they are all nice an new, and there is an improvement. Its just nowhere near the difference that is said on here alot which i believe is pretty misleading.

@1979scotte
Tyres are 195/50/15s and 215/45/16s.

You're disappointed because (inspired by the many enthusiastic comments of other ROC members) you've taken your car in a particular direction, spent circa £400 in the process and the imagined great improvement failed to materialise.

Been there, done that.

In my case it was £423 spent on four tyres that INITIALLY made the car overall much less pleasant to drive.

(So I spent another circa £400 on the KYBs and Teins.......)

"theres no real way of telling how bad or good struts are (unless leaking/knocking etc)"

Don't entirely agree there. If your struts are fairly good and you have no basis of comparison (such as back to back drives in a known 'good' MR2) then yes it is probably going to be fairly hard for most mere mortals to tell just how good.

But if they are bad it CAN be pretty obvious (as I have already mentioned earlier in this thread).

What have you gained so far?

1) Your suspension is now 'known good'

2) It will have improved, you just aren't feeling the benefit much yet.

So what (apart from an Alignment) might help you better feel the benefit?

Different tyres might.

(maybe on a second set of wheels / maybe next year ...)

PS3s are bound to be decent (no such thing as a truly bad Michelin) but it seems they aren't that stiff on the sidewall from reading around t'internet.

As Petrus and Dev have pointed out, this car was designed around a tyre with fairly stiff sidewalls. You now KNOW your dampers are good (which my experience with AD08Rs tells me is what stiff sidewall tyres seem to especially need).

Something stiffer than the PS3 could then take it more in line to how Toyota originally intended.

Found this an interesting read......

My bro and I had a track day @ Silverstone last Tuesday, we run nr. Identical Astra-G's Z22se with similar chassis mods - were a competitive family!!!

I have 2 sets of tyres, Michelin PS3 on standard rims & Dunlop DZ03G Semi-slicks on Supertourings.
My bro has only Yokohama AD08R on standard rims.
All tyres are nearly new in size 205/50R16.

Conditions were appox 7C, with a constant fine rain nearly all day.

I started with the Michelin's – thinking a proper road tyre with wet rating A will probably be quicker than the AD08 with wet rating B. WRONG!!! Yokohama's were quicker with much better turn-in and steering feel.


https://z22se.co.uk/threads/ad08r-vs-dz03g-vs-pilot-sport-3-moist-silverstone-gp.28841

[Iain]

@K T M Rider.
I said there was an improvement, just less than i expected from some of the comments posted. Overall it was worth doing, now knowing its all new and happy.

The turn in on the ps3s is far more responsive than the oem bridgestones i took off, so they are pretty good to me.

Also, its not exactly a shock that a track focused tyre was better in some 'light rain' than a road tyre. Wonder what it would have been like if it was really cold and heavy rain? The yoko would have been nowhere. Like i said previously, i got the ps3s because i know they will cope in all conditions (obviously not snow), and will manage a few laps on track now and again.

You have a better tyre in mind?

I did consider the new ad08rs, which has terrible reviews, so decided against that.

Might just keep my opinions to myself in future, much less hassle

[Gaz mr-s]

I said there was an improvement, just less than i expected from some of the comments posted. Overall it was worth doing.

The turn in on the ps3s is far more responsive than the oem bridgestones i took off, so they are pretty good to me.

You have a better tyre in mind?

The only other that came close was the new ad08rs, which has terrible reviews, so decided against that.

/quote]

You said previously that the PS3 feel ok to you, so that's good, & I hope nothing changes your mind, but I can't agree with your last line.

I looked again at tests & reports on the PS3, wondering if I should consider them. They aren't rated highly (passage of time I suppose) & they are still considerably more expensive than tyres rated above them.


Just as a by-the-by for anyone following this, The Kuhmo Ecsta HS51 has had a re-vamp (without any fanfare seemingly) & was rated very highly in a test, but only one test so far that I've read, & not as good in the wet as the Hankook K125.

[Dev]

Entirely dependent on the starting point.

Absolutely correct. 

Our 2003 had over 130,000 miles on what the original owner claimed were the original struts. But almost all of the miles were easy expressway miles.  Obviously, a very easy life.  They weren't leaking, and the strut rods did not show any wear. New KYB made some difference with stock springs, but not much, even on rough roads. 

On the other hand, the original front struts on the 2002 showed noticeable rod wear and discoloration at about 80,000 miles. They had also lost all gas pressure. Those miles were obviously much harder miles, and the struts needed replaced.

I do agree with this, and theres no real way of telling how bad or good struts are (unless leaking/knocking etc) so its a bit of an unkown.

Please dont get me wrong here, it no bad thing they are all nice an new, and there is an improvement. Its just nowhere near the difference that is said on here alot which i believe is pretty misleading.

@1979scotte
Tyres are 195/50/15s and 215/45/16s.

You're disappointed because (inspired by the many enthusiastic comments of other ROC members) you've taken your car in a particular direction, spent circa £400 in the process and the imagined great improvement failed to materialise.

Been there, done that.

In my case it was £423 spent on four tyres that INITIALLY made the car overall much less pleasant to drive.

(So I spent another circa £400 on the KYBs and Teins.......)

"theres no real way of telling how bad or good struts are (unless leaking/knocking etc)"

Don't entirely agree there. If your struts are fairly good and you have no basis of comparison (such as back to back drives in a known 'good' MR2) then yes it is probably going to be fairly hard for most mere mortals to tell just how good.

But if they are bad it CAN be pretty obvious (as I have already mentioned earlier in this thread).

What have you gained so far?

1) Your suspension is now 'known good'

2) It will have improved, you just aren't feeling the benefit much yet.

So what (apart from an Alignment) might help you better feel the benefit?

Different tyres might.

(maybe on a second set of wheels / maybe next year ...)

PS3s are bound to be decent (no such thing as a truly bad Michelin) but it seems they aren't that stiff on the sidewall from reading around t'internet.

As Petrus and Dev have pointed out, this car was designed around a tyre with fairly stiff sidewalls. You now KNOW your dampers are good (which my experience with AD08Rs tells me is what stiff sidewall tyres seem to especially need).

Something stiffer than the PS3 could then take it more in line to how Toyota originally intended.

Found this an interesting read......

My bro and I had a track day @ Silverstone last Tuesday, we run nr. Identical Astra-G's Z22se with similar chassis mods - were a competitive family!!!

I have 2 sets of tyres, Michelin PS3 on standard rims & Dunlop DZ03G Semi-slicks on Supertourings.
My bro has only Yokohama AD08R on standard rims.
All tyres are nearly new in size 205/50R16.

Conditions were appox 7C, with a constant fine rain nearly all day.

I started with the Michelin's – thinking a proper road tyre with wet rating A will probably be quicker than the AD08 with wet rating B. WRONG!!! Yokohama's were quicker with much better turn-in and steering feel.


https://z22se.co.uk/threads/ad08r-vs-dz03g-vs-pilot-sport-3-moist-silverstone-gp.28841

I have found Bridgestones and Yokohama to be a better brand because they respect the sidewall stiffness in a good number of their products. Nothing against Michelin tires as I have used them before on other cars because they came new with them or used but if you ever wondered why they are not as popular in the enthusiast car communities its because they have a reputation of being overpriced for what they are when there are better cheaper options out there. It doesn't mean they are not good tires but they tend to not be very competitive and generally sold new with certain cars. 

As for the 2nd tier cheaper tiers they have made some very good advancements in being a very good value but what you get from a top tier tire is better feel at the limits even though it might not have ultimate grip.
They also seem to not heat cycle out as fast during its life.

[Iain]

/quote]

You said previously that the PS3 feel ok to you, so that's good, & I hope nothing changes your mind, but I can't agree with your last line.

I looked again at tests & reports on the PS3, wondering if I should consider them. They aren't rated highly (passage of time I suppose) & they are still considerably more expensive than tyres rated above them.


Just as a by-the-by for anyone following this, The Kuhmo Ecsta HS51 has had a re-vamp (without any fanfare seemingly) & was rated very highly in a test, but only one test so far that I've read, & not as good in the wet as the Hankook K125.
[/quote]

Ive had the likes of kuhmo, hankooks in the past, what id call mid range tyres. They're ok, but not for me.

I like Michelin tyres, ive have them on our 120d m sport and they are brilliant. Took off pirelli p zeros and they are miles in front of them, in my opinion of course.

Yes they are expensive, but you get what you pay for. In my experience (not just cars) that is very rarely wrong.

I dont read tyre reviews, (or car reviews for that matter). Its one persons opinion against another. I much prefer going off what ive had or learnt in the past, or what my local tyre dealer reccommends. They are very close friends, have been in the business for 35+ years and know the difference between an average and quality tyre.

[Iain]

You have a better tyre in mind?

I did consider the new ad08rs, which has terrible reviews, so decided against that.

Personally, if I could go non-OEM sizes I would go for Nankang NS-2R, I've heard good things about it, Car Throttle even put them on their BMW 330d that they tuned to make through their track faster than an M3. Then again, I didn't have it myself, so can't give any personal experience info.

The OEM sizes is a whole other battle with tyres, and for me keeping stock rear was important. I went 195 up front to help make the balance just slighty more neutral and reduce understeer when on track.

[shnazzle]

I think the discussion has probably come to a natural end.
What's important here is to take into consideration all aspects of suspension and that diving into replacement of parts can lead to disappointment.

This applies to anything on here; it's all to help inform a decision but we should probably aim to stay away from cries like "night and day", "transformation". I've been guilty of this.