Wheel alignments

[Mr2paul]

Hi folks, I do hope you are all well and enjoying abit of top down motoring now.
My question is,,,, the 2 wheel alignment that is offered £29.99 is this any good ? As iv read of all wheel alignments are good so can the normal tyre fitters do this or do you need to go elsewere? So any info on the subject is good. Who, how much etc etc. Excuse my ignorance but I haven't a clue on this subject so feel free to enlighten. I'm no speed freak but as getting used to the car I'm getting more confident taking bends faster each time although damp wet makes me hold back. It's very easy to loose the rear on wet tight bends when applying throttle which has never been an issue in the fiesta etc. Got new toyos on which always seemed grippy to me on past cars. Maybe summat is not quite right?? I'm new to the mr2 so only 800ml under my belt said far. Seems abit wayward on bumpy rolling roads at 80-100 ( private n no other cars etc ) BUT it is swb so maybe that is natural ??  I really need an expert to drive it, to tell me ok or not don't I. Iv felt the oversteer when I got her, then pushing after new tyres understeer on front which was a pity, n now I'm getting familiar with it at speed it seems to float?   

[Dev]

Generally speaking there is only one adjustment which is toe on our cars. As long as the operator is qualified to use an alignment machine it should be easy enough for them to get everything in the green.
 I usually go to a cheap guy and let the operator adjust a little tighter and more aggressive but you don't have to since you are new to this. Learn the car first within the limits of safety.

[ucb]

Hunter alignment tool is generally reported to be the best in business but it's only as good as the tool using the tool....
However, a car feeling wayward on bumps and floating at speed sounds much more like old, tired dampers to me. Which in turn will make the handling more unpredictable as tyre contact patch is inconsistent.
The MR2 makes lift at speed and it's a light car so I'd expect some feeling of float. There's a thread about underbody flat floors somewhere I read once improving the front-end lift.

[ucb]

Just to add check your tyres pressures.

[Petrus]

As suggested.
Check tyre pressures, máybe the allignment but most importantly get used to it.

Initial undesteer is indeed a characteristic but overall it should be neutral. The rear end is quite well behaved.
On the face lift a whiff more so still than on the pre face lift.
Only two NoNos:
- don´t stamp on the loud pedal coming out of corners in the wet
- don´t brusquely lift on entry to mid coner
and for the rest it is very benign.

Yes, the ´floating´ is that shocks/springs are most likely tired and going new Kayabas will make a world of difference.

Have a bit of more fun with it first though.
The initial understeer can be unsettling and the electric power steering does not help in my opinion. Playing around with the best way to enter corners will most likely sort most of it. The front does not like to be pushed in, most markedly at lower speeds.

Enjoy!!

[McMr2]

Hi folks, I do hope you are all well and enjoying abit of top down motoring now.
My question is,,,, the 2 wheel alignment that is offered £29.99 is this any good ? As iv read of all wheel alignments are good so can the normal tyre fitters do this or do you need to go elsewere? So any info on the subject is good. Who, how much etc etc. Excuse my ignorance but I haven't a clue on this subject so feel free to enlighten. I'm no speed freak but as getting used to the car I'm getting more confident taking bends faster each time although damp wet makes me hold back. It's very easy to loose the rear on wet tight bends when applying throttle which has never been an issue in the fiesta etc. Got new toyos on which always seemed grippy to me on past cars. Maybe summat is not quite right?? I'm new to the mr2 so only 800ml under my belt said far. Seems abit wayward on bumpy rolling roads at 80-100 ( private n no other cars etc ) BUT it is swb so maybe that is natural ??  I really need an expert to drive it, to tell me ok or not don't I. Iv felt the oversteer when I got her, then pushing after new tyres understeer on front which was a pity, n now I'm getting familiar with it at speed it seems to float?   

As you'll have noticed the balance is entirely different to a fiesta and even front engined, rwd cars.

I really didn't get on with toyos in the wet, to the point where I got rid (t1r's in 225 on the rear). This was even when taking it easy.

Personally I haven't had much joy with basic 2 wheel alignments, even on simple fwd cars where it's basically the only adjustment. For an MR2 I would seek out someone/somewhere a bit more specialised. It's one thing to have the alignment 'in spec' and quite another to have it setup to suit the car and your driving style.

[Zxrob]

Now, I may get shot down for this, but here is my take, this is based on my experience, spirited road driving and having owned the car around 18 months and 4k miles, 04 facelift.

When I first got it I was rather diassapointed, the handling was, well, naff, first impressions were, there is something seriously wrong with this thing, not impressed, so set about sorting it, new tyres all round,
front and centre braces added, checked everything steering wise to make sure it was up to scratch, played around with the tyre pressures a bit, it is significantly better now, still a little bit floaty at speed but not scary.
I really do think most of it is down to the flex in the chassis.

Rob

[Carolyn]

Mine is well planted at all speeds.

When I got it it wasn't.  Gave it a bit more toe-in at the front.  Sorted.

[Petrus]

Gave it a bit more toe-in at the front.  Sorted.

Does increase any tendency to tramline. Harmless but some find that disconcerting.

[Carolyn]

No tramlining here.

Rock steady, hands off 80mph.  (Not that I EVER go that fast).

[Petrus]

Rock steady, hands off 80mph.  (Not that I EVER go that fast).

Hands off???  How dáre you. And then mentioning that on the forum. How uttáhly irresposible.
If something were to happen insurance  companies would claim it ALL on you on grounds of reckless driving putting others at grave risk.

Right.
Have fun Carolyn!

p.s. typed from Mexico by a professional typist in controlled surroundings.

[Dev]

I'm no speed freak but as getting used to the car I'm getting more confident taking bends faster each time although damp wet makes me hold back. It's very easy to loose the rear on wet tight bends when applying throttle which has never been an issue in the fiesta etc.   

This is something I didn't catch before. It is very easy to lose the rear on wet tight bends on most mid-engine and rear engine cars. That is the nature of a car where the majority of the weight is behind you wanting to swap ends.  It doesn't mean that its like that for everyone as experience will generally prevail however a car like this at or near the limit can be unforgiving in inexperienced hands. Making the wrong inputs, not being able to commit is what gets a large majority of new drivers in trouble especially when there is no stability control.
 When it rains I slow down particularly in corners because I know that the car can swap ends if I drive this car like typical front engine car.
  The mid engine advantages are many but generally they come into focus when you know how to use them to your advantage like late braking and less polar inertia but there are downsides which makes the car grip and then snap unexpectedly if you go over the line because you or over confident so you need to dial it down and respect the car.

 The best thing you can do is have a member drive your car for an assessment particularly one that is level headed and will not start suggesting all kinds of aftermarket parts to fix obvious problems if there is any.
The car needs to be brought to a baseline of what is normal otherwise you will get lost.

[Mr2paul]

I agree 100% and thanks for everyone's input. The car is a different beast to the fiesta which in all honesty you cannot lose and I may push the limits when safe to do so, but better to no the boundaries I think than not. I err on the cautious side and only push as an experiment so it is planned. Not yet had a scary moment while driving normally yet, which is good and iv never had a my fault accident in 30yrs. I think I'll get to no it better in the coming miles but all is well for now and it makes me smile which fiesta doesn't. Thanks for the reassurances.

[Petrus]

Have fun while getting to know the thing!

[Dev]

I agree 100% and thanks for everyone's input. The car is a different beast to the fiesta which in all honesty you cannot lose and I may push the limits when safe to do so, but better to no the boundaries I think than not. I err on the cautious side and only push as an experiment so it is planned. Not yet had a scary moment while driving normally yet, which is good and iv never had a my fault accident in 30yrs. I think I'll get to no it better in the coming miles but all is well for now and it makes me smile which fiesta doesn't. Thanks for the reassurances.

You will come to a point as you get better where you will gain a certain amount of confidence thinking you know the car and that everything you thought before was overblown as you keep pushing and then one day it pushes back bringing you back to a humbling reality.
 Another thing to know is there are false limits based on your skill set where an experienced driver can go beyond them by understanding how to transfer weight using the accelerator at the right moment. These potentials are seen less with front engine, FWD cars.
The most important thing for the street is to give you self enough headroom so you don't explore the edge of the limits by driving 8/10s which is still a fun ride but not a reckless one.


 

[Zxrob]

I'm no speed freak but as getting used to the car I'm getting more confident taking bends faster each time although damp wet makes me hold back. It's very easy to loose the rear on wet tight bends when applying throttle which has never been an issue in the fiesta etc.   

This is something I didn't catch before. It is very easy to lose the rear on wet tight bends on most mid-engine and rear engine cars. That is the nature of a car where the majority of the weight is behind you wanting to swap ends.  It doesn't mean that its like that for everyone as experience will generally prevail however a car like this at or near the limit can be unforgiving in inexperienced hands. Making the wrong inputs, not being able to commit is what gets a large majority of new drivers in trouble especially when there is no stability control.
 When it rains I slow down particularly in corners because I know that the car can swap ends if I drive this car like typical front engine car.
  The mid engine advantages are many but generally they come into focus when you know how to use them to your advantage like late braking and less polar inertia but there are downsides which makes the car grip and then snap unexpectedly if you go over the line because you or over confident so you need to dial it down and respect the car.

 The best thing you can do is have a member drive your car for an assessment particularly one that is level headed and will not start suggesting all kinds of aftermarket parts to fix obvious problems if there is any.
The car needs to be brought to a baseline of what is normal otherwise you will get lost.

So what you are saying Dev is, be smooth

Coming from a motorcycling background, riding old bikes where the only control you have is your right hand and, right and left feet, you get used to being smooth. When you think about it, fast performance bikes are similar to the MR2, mid engine, drive at the rear and steering at the front. I have rode and still do some very, very quick bikes, done hundreds of track days so class myself as an experienced rider. On numerous occasions on circuit I have seen folks "highside" basically, lose traction, panic and off the gas, grip again, up in the air you go, sound familiar (minus the flying rider) to the MR2

Rob

[Dev]

I'm no speed freak but as getting used to the car I'm getting more confident taking bends faster each time although damp wet makes me hold back. It's very easy to loose the rear on wet tight bends when applying throttle which has never been an issue in the fiesta etc. 

This is something I didn't catch before. It is very easy to lose the rear on wet tight bends on most mid-engine and rear engine cars. That is the nature of a car where the majority of the weight is behind you wanting to swap ends.  It doesn't mean that its like that for everyone as experience will generally prevail however a car like this at or near the limit can be unforgiving in inexperienced hands. Making the wrong inputs, not being able to commit is what gets a large majority of new drivers in trouble especially when there is no stability control.
 When it rains I slow down particularly in corners because I know that the car can swap ends if I drive this car like typical front engine car.
  The mid engine advantages are many but generally they come into focus when you know how to use them to your advantage like late braking and less polar inertia but there are downsides which makes the car grip and then snap unexpectedly if you go over the line because you or over confident so you need to dial it down and respect the car.

 The best thing you can do is have a member drive your car for an assessment particularly one that is level headed and will not start suggesting all kinds of aftermarket parts to fix obvious problems if there is any.
The car needs to be brought to a baseline of what is normal otherwise you will get lost.

So what you are saying Dev is, be smooth

Coming from a motorcycling background, riding old bikes where the only control you have is your right hand and, right and left feet, you get used to being smooth. When you think about it, fast performance bikes are similar to the MR2, mid engine, drive at the rear and steering at the front. I have rode and still do some very, very quick bikes, done hundreds of track days so class myself as an experienced rider. On numerous occasions on circuit I have seen folks "highside" basically, lose traction, panic and off the gas, grip again, up in the air you go, sound familiar (minus the flying rider) to the MR2

Rob

Absolutely, being smooth and not panicking. I use to ride sport bikes in my youth and was a bit dangerous looking back. The MR2 is very much like a four wheel motorcycle in many respects and should be treated as such when weather conditions are not favorable.
I have been on these forums a very long time and have seen many that have wrecked from assuming this is just a normal car and you can drive it with authority around exit ramps in the rain. Not just this car but a lot of Ferrari and 911 owners that bought them for show end up ditching them before the advent of stability control.

When someone loses control their first reaction is more or less a conditioned response to let up on the throttle, hit the brakes and over correct. All this does is upset the balance abruptly and its very hard to recover where the car is completely out of control and you are along for the ride. This is true for any car layout but with the rear weight behind you wanting to swap ends its even more difficult. 
An experienced driver will pause for a moment to judge what is happening and then carefully apply inputs gradually to either recover or have a controlled slide away from danger.
Everyone wants to drive fast thinking they are a great driver but a real test of a drivers skill is control when things go wrong but they wouldn't be in this situation if they had enough wisdom to avoid a potentially bad situation and knowing their limitations.

I have been in situations where the corner was too hot as it kept bending tighter for the speed. I could feel the rear end is going to give out if I continue at this speed so only options at this point is to  scrub off speed but if I do it abruptly it will make it worse so I let off easy until the car is gripping and then use the brakes. Other times it requires commitment on the throttle to have the car fall back in line.  Once that event is over Im not too proud because it was my lack of skills that got me in the danger zone.

[Petrus]

I have been in situations where the corner was too hot as it kept bending tighter for the speed.

I think Toyota did make a bit of a mistake there with the placing and distance brake pedal, gas pedal. It is near impossible to use two feet there. Heel-toe is not as subtly coördinated as you can be with two feet. But it is as it is.

Anyway, I think the OP best gets the mileage under the belt and find out how to bend hñis driving style a bit around the characteristics of the little spyder.

I have had twó mayor adaptations.
One when moving over here to the mountains. Coming from the Dutch flat lands with open corners and grippy tarmac, it took a bit ;-)
Add over two decades of international road racing and... uuuuuff.
Especially had to sériously change how to peel off the bike and nót, NÓT have the rear steer.

Then the MR2. Was like a step forward again. The great positive it that you don´t go on your ear and you cán steer the rear. The harder tarmac is now a póstive as all responses just over the hump are smoother. I could únsmooth a bit.

To the OP.
Have a look at the tyre adhesion graph:



There are many more and the values are irrelevant. It is the shape of the top that is the crux.
The only thing specific for the Spyder is the low moment of inertia, that it can go relatively quicker BUT it is off set by the largish wheelbase ánd the low pmi giving both more gip and allowing easier correction.

What the grip curve tells you is that grip does not plummet: If the front starts to understeer you cán still steer, even a bit more. If the rear starts to go you cán still smear it forward.
Ergo; do not panic and overreact.

The phrasing of ´snap oversteer´ is very much overstated for this MR2 Spyder.  Having the ´it will bite quickly´ in mind is counterproductive. I find it very benign and if anything éasier to drive on the top of the hump than most sporty FWD/RWD.


Just keep it well on the left side on the open road till you have under controlled circumstances amply tried out what it does on the other side. The confidence from that is imo thé safest driver skill with this wonderful drivers´car.

Just enjoy it and go play with the hump top on an early Sunday morning deserted industrial estate. Beware of dads teaching their son ;-)
Alternatively book a private schooling session at a track. Track days are not really the thing as it is not the time and place to try out things, provoke traction loss on top of the hump.

[Dev]

 Pedal placement is for safety not for performance and that is why manufactures don't do it. It was determined that some manufactures because of poor design had the brake pedal too close to the accelerator which was the cause of many unintentional accidents and pedestrian deaths that resulted in class action lawsuits. 
 There are those that try to place the pedal close for heel toe shifting which is fine for a race car but not for a street car as you shouldn't be doing any heel toe on a road going car because as they say in my country you will look like a jackass ricer being overdramatic.

The proper way to drive is to slow down and shift down smoothly to make the corner with plenty of distance. Street driving is not a race where you are being timed trying to exploit all sorts of techniques making a dangerous situation worse. When a driver is on the edge and letting their tires slip and recover it only shows the are a bad driver not a good one.



 

[Carolyn]

Not everyone who uses the heel-and-toe technique is driving like a nutter.  I've done it all my driving life and I incorporate it into a smooth and responsible driving style.  Done properly, all it does is allow one the change down and brake in one smooth way.  Just a gentle use of brake and the minimal 'blip' on the throttle.

No other road user, would know I was doing it.

You don't have to be screaming into a corner!

[Petrus]

Ah well, if you want the high horse on the moral ground, braking is a lot quicker thus sáfer when you can drive with two feet in an smt as I do.
The brake pedal a bit further awáy from the gas pedal should do nicely thank you. I think Toyota should have.
But then you will probably say that cars are designed to be driven by the average not very good driver but there is a catch there; why produce a low priced mid engine car capable of most times doubling max. high way speeds.

Bottom line is that ´snap oversteer´ or something like that is mentioned in just about every piece about the MR2. This is not something éver encountered when ´proper´ driving the Spyder.

For those who are occasionally unproper driving it is adding safety to be aware of the tyre adhesion graph. It apllies to all qualities of rubber. The better quality the rubber, the higher in the scale but especially flatter, the poorer the lower and narrower.
The safest rubber for the road is the one with the broadest top.

[Petrus]

Done properly, all it does is allow one the change down and brake in one smooth way.

Agreed.

When driving any sort of automatic or automatic clutch it can be done even smoother by using both feet.

But it is ´progress that next we will see ´stability control´ rising on the list of things missing from the MR2.

[1979scotte]

I wish I could heel and toe.
Or even left foot brake in an auto.
I've got 2 left feet.

[Zxrob]

I wish I could heel and toe.
Or even left foot brake in an auto.
I've got 2 left feet.

Buy a car with rev matching (boring) job done

I can heel ant toe in the Mr2 but in my HRV its more like hoof and toe, the bloody brakes are so responsive, the wrong touch and your face is in the window, I tend to do it only when I'm having some fun, normal day to day driving its pointless imo

Rob