Anyone running a square set up on 15"?

[Smithy]

I have my eye on a set of team dynamics 15" but not sure how it will handle. I have a standard FL set up at the moment.

[SV-3]

I have my eye on a set of team dynamics 15" but not sure how it will handle. I have a standard FL set up at the moment.

As the Beatles sang: "Let It Be"

[Ozzy]

I did briefly many years ago when I got my first MR2 roadster. It was very tail happy, even in the dry when pushed or driven enthusiastically.

I have the stock 15" staggered PFL wheels on my current mr2 with TR1 tyres and it just sticks to the bends. Amazing grip in rain also, so the difference between the two is night and day.

[Roj]

One sized glove doesn't fit all.

What will be your intended use? Some have had good results going 205 square but it depends on what you want from the car. Going square should reduce understeer and give a sharper turn in at the expense of outright lateral grip, dependent on what sizes you're going from and to.

Unless you're specifically looking to change the characteristics on track/sprint/hillclimb etc. you're probably best sticking with a stagger (IMO).

[Dev]

There are many that have gone with a square set up without too many issues and there are some advantages if you race. Larger tires increase unsprung weight and reduce the nimbleness which decreases the fun factor.
 
The reason you go staggered or for a smaller width tire is for fun. It makes the car feel alive and you can dial out the understeer easily if its a bother with adding negative camber up front.
 The way the car turns feels more like a nimble shopping cart than a feeling of a delayed response.

 If given a choice I would want a tire that grips better in small sizes than wider tires.

[Smithy]

Thanks everyone. I have a standard FL set up at the moment and I love the way it handles. The wheels I have seen for sale are a good price but at 15s all round. I don't want to change just because they look nice only to find I've lost the special feel my car has now. My car won't see a track .

[1979scotte]

Loads of us have 15 all round that's standard for pfl cars.
You don't have to fit the same size tyres

185 205 are what we all use on pfl.

[Smithy]

Thanks Scotte and Dev.

[McSmallface]

Like the previous gents have pointed out you can run a square setup and then maintain the stagger with the tires as for example a 6.5 wide rim could accept a 185 tire on the front and 205 tire on the rear. The only other thing to would need to do it you wanted to maintain the matching front to rear track width is to either get a rear wheel in the same size as the front but with a lower offset or pop a spacer on the rear wheel to bring the rear out a bit.

[m1tch]

I am running a square setup in terms of wheels but running 195 front, 225 rear so same wheels, staggered tyres.

[Smithy]

This Friday I'm picking up a set of 15s with the tyre staggered as mentioned above. I will keep my stock FL set up for winter. Wasn't really looking for wheels but they just came up at such a good price. I'm looking forward to seeing the difference if in handling if any.

[Dev]

I am running a square setup in terms of wheels but running 195 front, 225 rear so same wheels, staggered tyres.

I thought square meant same width tires all around unless I am mistaken.   
  I know of double stager which is different tire width and different wheel hight. Or triple stagger which is different tire width, different wheel width and different wheel hight which is what the FL car has.

[Roj]

I am running a square setup in terms of wheels but running 195 front, 225 rear so same wheels, staggered tyres.

I thought square meant same width tires all around unless I am mistaken.   
  I know of double stager which is different tire width and different wheel hight. Or triple stagger which is different tire width, different wheel width and different wheel hight which is what the FL car has.

That's my understanding too, square set up refers to the tyres, not the wheels.

[Nvy]

There are many that have gone with a square set up without too many issues and there are some advantages if you race. Larger tires increase unsprung weight and reduce the nimbleness which decreases the fun factor.
 
The reason you go staggered or for a smaller width tire is for fun. It makes the car feel alive and you can dial out the understeer easily if its a bother with adding negative camber up front.
 The way the car turns feels more like a nimble shopping cart than a feeling of a delayed response.

 If given a choice I would want a tire that grips better in small sizes than wider tires.

dev, Can u elaborate on the bolded part? I have this with a square setup at the moment(winter tires) but when I change to the summer ones, it is less pronounced but still not confidence inspiring. I have same rims back to front but no spacers, do you think adding a spacer will fix it? Tires are 185/55/15 and 205/50/15 Yoko Ad08r both on 7" rim and was thinking of adding 13mm spacer in the back.

[JB21]

I'll be running a square set-up on my next track day with my 2ZZ track car. 205 equivalent slicks on 7J rims.

I currently run 3 sets of wheels.

Wets on FL wheels - Rainsport 5 - front 195/50/15 - rear 215/45/16

Road/damp/cold on 7J OZ wheels - Nankang AR1 - front 205/50/15 - rear 225/45/15

Dry on 7J OZ wheels - Hankook Ventus F200 slicks (medium compound) - 200/580/15 square

[Dev]

There are many that have gone with a square set up without too many issues and there are some advantages if you race. Larger tires increase unsprung weight and reduce the nimbleness which decreases the fun factor.
 
The reason you go staggered or for a smaller width tire is for fun. It makes the car feel alive and you can dial out the understeer easily if its a bother with adding negative camber up front.
 The way the car turns feels more like a nimble shopping cart than a feeling of a delayed response.

 If given a choice I would want a tire that grips better in small sizes than wider tires.

dev, Can u elaborate on the bolded part? I have this with a square setup at the moment(winter tires) but when I change to the summer ones, it is less pronounced but still not confidence inspiring. I have same rims back to front but no spacers, do you think adding a spacer will fix it? Tires are 185/55/15 and 205/50/15 Yoko Ad08r both on 7" rim and was thinking of adding 13mm spacer in the back.

 Less confidence could be due to many things.  What tire pressures are you running and what is the load rating of the tires?

Less responsive or a delayed response can be a result of two things. More tire width in the front and more negative offset of the wheels.  If you add a spacer you will increase the negative offset.

  When this happens you will have a feeling of more stability but your steering wheel will have less feedback.

 But its much more than that. When you change the offsets you  change the scrub radius which can make a profound difference on how the car handles because it changes the geometry of the whole suspension including the spring rates. It is one of those modifications that can radically change the way the car feels depending on how much or how little so you need to carefully consider.

 Before I would add a spacer I would work on other things since you are using stock sizes it shouldn't be this bad for you and it could just be an alignment issue.

[Nvy]

There are many that have gone with a square set up without too many issues and there are some advantages if you race. Larger tires increase unsprung weight and reduce the nimbleness which decreases the fun factor.
 
The reason you go staggered or for a smaller width tire is for fun. It makes the car feel alive and you can dial out the understeer easily if its a bother with adding negative camber up front.
 The way the car turns feels more like a nimble shopping cart than a feeling of a delayed response.

 If given a choice I would want a tire that grips better in small sizes than wider tires.

dev, Can u elaborate on the bolded part? I have this with a square setup at the moment(winter tires) but when I change to the summer ones, it is less pronounced but still not confidence inspiring. I have same rims back to front but no spacers, do you think adding a spacer will fix it? Tires are 185/55/15 and 205/50/15 Yoko Ad08r both on 7" rim and was thinking of adding 13mm spacer in the back.

 Less confidence could be due to many things.  What tire pressures are you running and what is the load rating of the tires?

Less responsive or a delayed response can be a result of two things. More tire width in the front and more negative offset of the wheels.  If you add a spacer you will decrease the negative offset.

  When this happens you will have a feeling of more stability but your steering wheel will have less feedback.

 But its much more than that. When you change the offsets you  change the scrub radius which can make a profound difference on how the car handles because it changes the geometry of the whole suspension including the spring rates. It is one of those modifications that can radically change the way the car feels depending on how much or how little so you need to carefully consider.

 Before I would add a spacer I would work on other things since you are using stock sizes it shouldn't be this bad for you and it could just be an alignment issue.

Yeah but the front wheel is 7" with 38 offset vs  6" 45 offset. Meaning its spaced out around 12 mm. I want to fix this first as I have good alignment. -2.2 all around and 0.1 toe in rear/ 0 toe front.

[Dev]

There are many that have gone with a square set up without too many issues and there are some advantages if you race. Larger tires increase unsprung weight and reduce the nimbleness which decreases the fun factor.
 
The reason you go staggered or for a smaller width tire is for fun. It makes the car feel alive and you can dial out the understeer easily if its a bother with adding negative camber up front.
 The way the car turns feels more like a nimble shopping cart than a feeling of a delayed response.

 If given a choice I would want a tire that grips better in small sizes than wider tires.

dev, Can u elaborate on the bolded part? I have this with a square setup at the moment(winter tires) but when I change to the summer ones, it is less pronounced but still not confidence inspiring. I have same rims back to front but no spacers, do you think adding a spacer will fix it? Tires are 185/55/15 and 205/50/15 Yoko Ad08r both on 7" rim and was thinking of adding 13mm spacer in the back.

 Less confidence could be due to many things.  What tire pressures are you running and what is the load rating of the tires?

Less responsive or a delayed response can be a result of two things. More tire width in the front and more negative offset of the wheels.  If you add a spacer you will decrease the negative offset.

  When this happens you will have a feeling of more stability but your steering wheel will have less feedback.

 But its much more than that. When you change the offsets you  change the scrub radius which can make a profound difference on how the car handles because it changes the geometry of the whole suspension including the spring rates. It is one of those modifications that can radically change the way the car feels depending on how much or how little so you need to carefully consider.

 Before I would add a spacer I would work on other things since you are using stock sizes it shouldn't be this bad for you and it could just be an alignment issue.

Yeah but the front wheel is 7" with 38 offset vs  6" 45 offset. Meaning its spaced out around 12 mm. I want to fix this first as I have good alignment. -2.2 all around and 0.1 toe in rear/ 0 toe front.

 I made a small typo which I corrected. You increase the negative offset in regard to adding spacers or different wheel offsets.

 In regards to your question I also would like to fix my offsets as my wheels are 37 and would like to have the factory offset of 45 which is almost impossible. You can go more negative with spacers but there is no way to go positive unless the back of the wheel is machined which I heard is possible but extremely rare.
 
However if you mean you would like to fix front to back equally as far as offset to have them equal then I think that would be ideal if the rear wheels are more positive than the fronts.
 
 Do you have a problem with high speed stability? as far as confidence inspiring or is it low speed.

[Nvy]

There are many that have gone with a square set up without too many issues and there are some advantages if you race. Larger tires increase unsprung weight and reduce the nimbleness which decreases the fun factor.
 
The reason you go staggered or for a smaller width tire is for fun. It makes the car feel alive and you can dial out the understeer easily if its a bother with adding negative camber up front.
 The way the car turns feels more like a nimble shopping cart than a feeling of a delayed response.

 If given a choice I would want a tire that grips better in small sizes than wider tires.

dev, Can u elaborate on the bolded part? I have this with a square setup at the moment(winter tires) but when I change to the summer ones, it is less pronounced but still not confidence inspiring. I have same rims back to front but no spacers, do you think adding a spacer will fix it? Tires are 185/55/15 and 205/50/15 Yoko Ad08r both on 7" rim and was thinking of adding 13mm spacer in the back.

 Less confidence could be due to many things.  What tire pressures are you running and what is the load rating of the tires?

Less responsive or a delayed response can be a result of two things. More tire width in the front and more negative offset of the wheels.  If you add a spacer you will decrease the negative offset.

  When this happens you will have a feeling of more stability but your steering wheel will have less feedback.

 But its much more than that. When you change the offsets you  change the scrub radius which can make a profound difference on how the car handles because it changes the geometry of the whole suspension including the spring rates. It is one of those modifications that can radically change the way the car feels depending on how much or how little so you need to carefully consider.

 Before I would add a spacer I would work on other things since you are using stock sizes it shouldn't be this bad for you and it could just be an alignment issue.

Yeah but the front wheel is 7" with 38 offset vs  6" 45 offset. Meaning its spaced out around 12 mm. I want to fix this first as I have good alignment. -2.2 all around and 0.1 toe in rear/ 0 toe front.

 I made a small typo which I corrected. You increase the negative offset in regard to adding spacers or different wheel offsets.

 In regards to your question I also would like to fix my offsets as my wheels are 37 and would like to have the factory offset of 45 which is almost impossible. You can go more negative with spacers but there is no way to go positive unless the back of the wheel is machined which I heard is possible but extremely rare.
 
However if you mean you would like to fix front to back equally as far as offset to have them equal then I think that would be ideal if the rear wheels are more positive than the fronts.
 
 Do you have a problem with high speed stability? as far as confidence inspiring or is it low speed.

Its just that I turn the wheel and the car follows after that. Not as agile that I would like it to be. What I am planning to do is to remove coilovers and fit OE shocks + springs + spacers in the back to fix back to front track width, will also lower the camber a bit -1.5 front and -1.2 back.

[Dev]

There are many that have gone with a square set up without too many issues and there are some advantages if you race. Larger tires increase unsprung weight and reduce the nimbleness which decreases the fun factor.
 
The reason you go staggered or for a smaller width tire is for fun. It makes the car feel alive and you can dial out the understeer easily if its a bother with adding negative camber up front.
 The way the car turns feels more like a nimble shopping cart than a feeling of a delayed response.

 If given a choice I would want a tire that grips better in small sizes than wider tires.

dev, Can u elaborate on the bolded part? I have this with a square setup at the moment(winter tires) but when I change to the summer ones, it is less pronounced but still not confidence inspiring. I have same rims back to front but no spacers, do you think adding a spacer will fix it? Tires are 185/55/15 and 205/50/15 Yoko Ad08r both on 7" rim and was thinking of adding 13mm spacer in the back.

 Less confidence could be due to many things.  What tire pressures are you running and what is the load rating of the tires?

Less responsive or a delayed response can be a result of two things. More tire width in the front and more negative offset of the wheels.  If you add a spacer you will decrease the negative offset.

  When this happens you will have a feeling of more stability but your steering wheel will have less feedback.

 But its much more than that. When you change the offsets you  change the scrub radius which can make a profound difference on how the car handles because it changes the geometry of the whole suspension including the spring rates. It is one of those modifications that can radically change the way the car feels depending on how much or how little so you need to carefully consider.

 Before I would add a spacer I would work on other things since you are using stock sizes it shouldn't be this bad for you and it could just be an alignment issue.

Yeah but the front wheel is 7" with 38 offset vs  6" 45 offset. Meaning its spaced out around 12 mm. I want to fix this first as I have good alignment. -2.2 all around and 0.1 toe in rear/ 0 toe front.

 I made a small typo which I corrected. You increase the negative offset in regard to adding spacers or different wheel offsets.

 In regards to your question I also would like to fix my offsets as my wheels are 37 and would like to have the factory offset of 45 which is almost impossible. You can go more negative with spacers but there is no way to go positive unless the back of the wheel is machined which I heard is possible but extremely rare.
 
However if you mean you would like to fix front to back equally as far as offset to have them equal then I think that would be ideal if the rear wheels are more positive than the fronts.
 
 Do you have a problem with high speed stability? as far as confidence inspiring or is it low speed.

Its just that I turn the wheel and the car follows after that. Not as agile that I would like it to be. What I am planning to do is to remove coilovers and fit OE shocks + springs + spacers in the back to fix back to front track width, will also lower the camber a bit -1.5 front and -1.2 back.

 I take it, it doesn't move as a unit. This is probably more to do with suspension than tires.
 A friend that had BC coil overs had that issue which we tried to correct with corner balancing, changing springs and alignment.  It helped and made it better but it was far from the stock suspension.  I believe it is due to the damping control as far as timing. 

 I would go back to a base line with OE suspension and see what it does before adding spacers. I bet you will see a massive difference.

[JB21]

There are many that have gone with a square set up without too many issues and there are some advantages if you race. Larger tires increase unsprung weight and reduce the nimbleness which decreases the fun factor.
 
The reason you go staggered or for a smaller width tire is for fun. It makes the car feel alive and you can dial out the understeer easily if its a bother with adding negative camber up front.
 The way the car turns feels more like a nimble shopping cart than a feeling of a delayed response.

 If given a choice I would want a tire that grips better in small sizes than wider tires.

dev, Can u elaborate on the bolded part? I have this with a square setup at the moment(winter tires) but when I change to the summer ones, it is less pronounced but still not confidence inspiring. I have same rims back to front but no spacers, do you think adding a spacer will fix it? Tires are 185/55/15 and 205/50/15 Yoko Ad08r both on 7" rim and was thinking of adding 13mm spacer in the back.

 Less confidence could be due to many things.  What tire pressures are you running and what is the load rating of the tires?

Less responsive or a delayed response can be a result of two things. More tire width in the front and more negative offset of the wheels.  If you add a spacer you will decrease the negative offset.

  When this happens you will have a feeling of more stability but your steering wheel will have less feedback.

 But its much more than that. When you change the offsets you  change the scrub radius which can make a profound difference on how the car handles because it changes the geometry of the whole suspension including the spring rates. It is one of those modifications that can radically change the way the car feels depending on how much or how little so you need to carefully consider.

 Before I would add a spacer I would work on other things since you are using stock sizes it shouldn't be this bad for you and it could just be an alignment issue.

Yeah but the front wheel is 7" with 38 offset vs  6" 45 offset. Meaning its spaced out around 12 mm. I want to fix this first as I have good alignment. -2.2 all around and 0.1 toe in rear/ 0 toe front.

If you want sharp turn in then more front toe out is necessary. I set mine at 0 when I first got the car and it was plain dull. Changed this to 1mm (0.09°) out each side, and it was much, much better. Now have it at 2mm (0.18°) out each side, and its so sharp. However this maybe to extreme for a road car, and will scrub the inside of the tyres.

Also I find the OE wheel offset doesn't help with feel and stability. Mine feels much more planted on aftermarket wheels with a 38ET, as it widens the axle track.

[Dev]

There are many that have gone with a square set up without too many issues and there are some advantages if you race. Larger tires increase unsprung weight and reduce the nimbleness which decreases the fun factor.
 
The reason you go staggered or for a smaller width tire is for fun. It makes the car feel alive and you can dial out the understeer easily if its a bother with adding negative camber up front.
 The way the car turns feels more like a nimble shopping cart than a feeling of a delayed response.

 If given a choice I would want a tire that grips better in small sizes than wider tires.

dev, Can u elaborate on the bolded part? I have this with a square setup at the moment(winter tires) but when I change to the summer ones, it is less pronounced but still not confidence inspiring. I have same rims back to front but no spacers, do you think adding a spacer will fix it? Tires are 185/55/15 and 205/50/15 Yoko Ad08r both on 7" rim and was thinking of adding 13mm spacer in the back.

 Less confidence could be due to many things.  What tire pressures are you running and what is the load rating of the tires?

Less responsive or a delayed response can be a result of two things. More tire width in the front and more negative offset of the wheels.  If you add a spacer you will decrease the negative offset.

  When this happens you will have a feeling of more stability but your steering wheel will have less feedback.

 But its much more than that. When you change the offsets you  change the scrub radius which can make a profound difference on how the car handles because it changes the geometry of the whole suspension including the spring rates. It is one of those modifications that can radically change the way the car feels depending on how much or how little so you need to carefully consider.

 Before I would add a spacer I would work on other things since you are using stock sizes it shouldn't be this bad for you and it could just be an alignment issue.

Yeah but the front wheel is 7" with 38 offset vs  6" 45 offset. Meaning its spaced out around 12 mm. I want to fix this first as I have good alignment. -2.2 all around and 0.1 toe in rear/ 0 toe front.

If you want sharp turn in then more front toe out is necessary. I set mine at 0 when I first got the car and it was plain dull. Changed this to 1mm (0.09°) out each side, and it was much, much better. Now have it at 2mm (0.18°) out each side, and its so sharp. However this maybe to extreme for a road car, and will scrub the inside of the tyres.

Also I find the OE wheel offset doesn't help with feel and stability. Mine feels much more planted on aftermarket wheels with a 38ET, as it widens the axle track.

 That is true in that more negative does feel more stable but that is because if feels less responsive to every bump in the road with less feedback. 
 I like more responsiveness that the OE offsets provide even if it feels less stable because I think its stable enough but far more playful for the street especially at lower speeds making it fun to drive.

[Smithy]

I am running a square setup in terms of wheels but running 195 front, 225 rear so same wheels, staggered tyres.

I thought square meant same width tires all around unless I am mistaken.   
  I know of double stager which is different tire width and different wheel hight. Or triple stagger which is different tire width, different wheel width and different wheel hight which is what the FL car has.

Sorry yes you're right. I have the same wheel size but different tyre sizes.

[Dev]

I am running a square setup in terms of wheels but running 195 front, 225 rear so same wheels, staggered tyres.

I thought square meant same width tires all around unless I am mistaken.   
  I know of double stager which is different tire width and different wheel hight. Or triple stagger which is different tire width, different wheel width and different wheel hight which is what the FL car has.

Sorry yes you're right. I have the same wheel size but different tyre sizes.

I actually asked because I thought maybe it was something new that I was not aware of.

[Smithy]

I'm very pleased with my wheel set up now and It handles even better than before. I bought it with 17" rear and 16" front OEM wheels and it felt really planted in the bends. moving to 15" with staggered tyre sizes it feels like it picks up quicker (they are 2kgish a wheel lighter to start with) and it corners really well. It does however feel lighter at the front end in a straight line at higher legal speeds?
I have gone for the same PSI as before 26 front and 32 rear, is that correct?