Squealed moments

[Mr2paul]

Hi all. I had the opportunity to visit a landing field and had some fun but I'm not clever at track stuff so hope someone can explain.
In a loose bend at approx 110-120 mph I lifted and the car went very bad in fact scary. All was well before but lifting off created such a massive change and I'm not used to that. As a road driver I'm very safe but on track I now appreciate the differences and confidence you must have in your cars.
Hat tipped guys

[1979scotte]

Hi all. I had the opportunity to visit a landing field and had some fun but I'm not clever at track stuff so hope someone can explain.
In a loose bend at approx 110-120 mph I lifted and the car went very bad in fact scary. All was well before but lifting off created such a massive change and I'm not used to that. As a road driver I'm very safe but on track I now appreciate the differences and confidence you must have in your cars.
Hat tipped guys

Lift off oversteer?

[Carolyn]

Corners are taken on the throttle.  Lifting in the middle of the process not good!

[Joesson]

I think it was Stirling Moss that said about corners,( a bend being a slow corner) go in slow and come out fast, and iirc  Patt Moss Carlson was an advocate of steady or accelerating through the bend.
Either suggestion is the opposite of backing off half way through so therein is the problem.
Perhaps think of driving on ice, accelerate/ decelerate  when in a straight line and work from there.

[Petrus]

Hi all. I had the opportunity to visit a landing field and had some fun but I'm not clever at track stuff so hope someone can explain.
In a loose bend at approx 110-120 mph I lifted and the car went very bad in fact scary. All was well before but lifting off created such a massive change and I'm not used to that. As a road driver I'm very safe but on track I now appreciate the differences and confidence you must have in your cars.
Hat tipped guys

Paul, this has nothing to do with road, track of even speed.
ANY corner you take near the limits of tyre adhesion is a situation in which upsetting the balance in forces will see one or more tyres over the limit.

When you lft off, this results in the engine ´braking´ the rear tyres, making the tyres slow down the car. In effect you add braking forces to the tyres which are alreade near the max availeble traction. Hence the avilable traction for resisting centrifugal forces becomes less = the rear tyres have an increase in the angle of slip; they drift more sideways than the front; the car starts to oversteer.

The more you lift, the more marked the effect.
On real world roads the available meximum traction is nearly always less, sometimes WAY less than on the track and it can happen at lowerd speeds.
Same thing toghter coners; the tighter the corner, the ggreater the centrifugal forces, the lower the speed at which you can induce the named ´lift oversteer´.

The spyder has a relatively long wheelbase so this action is relatively slow even though the mid engined concept makes the situation quicker when the rear actually LOOSES traction.

Have a look at a tyre traction graph and yiu will see that tyres have a ´hump´ which tails off instread of bréaking off.

The better the tyre, the more benign the behaviour but that is beside the point hére.
The crux is that when you inadvertendly induce lift oversteer, you have a margin to  ´play´ with before you swap ends.



(never mind the brands/types/values) it is about the shápe of the graph.

It is one of those things that is very much worthwhile to try out. Basically any car will do. In general a light FWD* is easiest provoked and as that is at lower speed, easiest learned. The spyder will do just as well but will need just  abit more speed than a basic FWD shopping cart.
All you need is a widish roundabout at a deseretd industrial estate. Go round a few times and find the limit of the car. Go just a bit slower and at a constant speed start provoking the rear by gradually lifting.
When you ´get´ is you come to the
*  in a FWD de frónt wheels are ´braking´ when you lift off and momentum (and weight transfer) ciuase teh rear to turn outwards. So though the forces are different the situation still is the same; less traction than needed at the rear so the slip angle increases. In bóth cases lifting off in one go near the raction limit ´equals´ to pulling the hand brake** ;-)
** not só much in the spyder as that has a pretty crap handbrake; the engine braking will do more.

HAVE FUN!!

Oh, the politically; WARNING: do not try this at home ;-)
Best under guidance of a professional driving instructor under closed road conditions.

[Petrus]

I think it was Stirling Moss that said about corners,( a bend being a slow corner) go in slow and come out fast, and iirc  Patt Moss Carlson was an advocate of steady or accelerating through the bend.
Either suggestion is the opposite of backing off half way through so therein is the problem.
Perhaps think of driving on ice, accelerate/ decelerate  when in a straight line and work from there.

I lóve Eric and Pat´s driving handbook and think it worth reading for anyone here. Even when you already are the perfect driver; it will then be a fun read..
When the current post Brexit caused customs muddle unmuddles a bit, I am happy to donate my book to the club for circulation.

[Iain]

Dont lift or brake mid corner, simples 😃

[1979scotte]

Dont lift or brake mid corner, simples 😃

An Instructor broke mid corner when driving my car once.
To deliberately induce oversteer to get us around the corner. I was amazed.

[Dev]

Anytime I have noticed this behavior when lifting on a high speed bend is usually caused by a problem with the rear toe. If one side is off it can have a pronounced exaggerated effect that is down right scary. I would certainly make sure the the rear toe is even and a little bit positive for high speed stability.

[Petrus]

Dont lift or brake mid corner, simples 😃

An Instructor broke mid corner when driving my car once.
To deliberately induce oversteer to get us around the corner. I was amazed.

Thanks for pointing this out.

poopoo happens. The more mucking tools you have in your kit, the less deep it gets.

Point being; nothing goes wrong untill it does. Better know what to do then.

@Dev; regardless of whose toes stick whichwhere; you lift enough near the limit and it wíll oversteer.

[Joesson]

Dont lift or brake mid corner, simples 😃

An Instructor broke mid corner when driving my car once.
To deliberately induce oversteer to get us around the corner. I was amazed.

Thanks for pointing this out.

poopoo happens. The more mucking tools you have in your kit, the less deep it gets.

Point being; nothing goes wrong untill it does. Better know what to do then.

@Dev; regardless of whose toes stick whichwhere; you lift enough near the limit and it wíll oversteer.

But did you vote yet for the new Club Committee Members?

[Joesson]

Anytime I have noticed this behavior when lifting on a high speed bend is usually caused by a problem with the rear toe. If one side is off it can have a pronounced exaggerated effect that is down right scary. I would certainly make sure the the rear toe is even and a little bit positive for high speed stability.

But did you vote yet for the new Club Committee Members?

[Joesson]

Dont lift or brake mid corner, simples 😃

But did you vote yet for the new Club Committee Members?

[Joesson]

Hi all. I had the opportunity to visit a landing field and had some fun but I'm not clever at track stuff so hope someone can explain.
In a loose bend at approx 110-120 mph I lifted and the car went very bad in fact scary. All was well before but lifting off created such a massive change and I'm not used to that. As a road driver I'm very safe but on track I now appreciate the differences and confidence you must have in your cars.
Hat tipped guys

But did you vote yet for the new Club Committee Members?

[Petrus]

But did you vote yet for the new Club Committee Members?

Yes.

[Ardent]

I think it was Stirling Moss that said about corners,( a bend being a slow corner) go in slow and come out fast, and iirc  Patt Moss Carlson was an advocate of steady or accelerating through the bend.
Either suggestion is the opposite of backing off half way through so therein is the problem.
Perhaps think of driving on ice, accelerate/ decelerate  when in a straight line and work from there.

I lóve Eric and Pat´s driving handbook and think it worth reading for anyone here. Even when you already are the perfect driver; it will then be a fun read..
When the current post Brexit caused customs muddle unmuddles a bit, I am happy to donate my book to the club for circulation.

Calling Dibs right here right now.

[Dev]

Anytime I have noticed this behavior when lifting on a high speed bend is usually caused by a problem with the rear toe. If one side is off it can have a pronounced exaggerated effect that is down right scary. I would certainly make sure the the rear toe is even and a little bit positive for high speed stability.

But did you vote yet for the new Club Committee Members?

Done. I wish them all the success.

[Petrus]

I think it was Stirling Moss that said about corners,( a bend being a slow corner) go in slow and come out fast, and iirc  Patt Moss Carlson was an advocate of steady or accelerating through the bend.
Either suggestion is the opposite of backing off half way through so therein is the problem.
Perhaps think of driving on ice, accelerate/ decelerate  when in a straight line and work from there.

I lóve Eric and Pat´s driving handbook and think it worth reading for anyone here. Even when you already are the perfect driver; it will then be a fun read..
When the current post Brexit caused customs muddle unmuddles a bit, I am happy to donate my book to the club for circulation.

Calling Dibs right here right now.

Sadly most of it a forgótten art no longer tought by driving schools. The consequences;  moronic bad driving, are increasingly being covered by electronic correcting devices. To add insult to injury those devices are sold to us a safe and the cause; bad driving, as normal.

[Zxrob]

Dont lift or brake mid corner, simples 😃

This ^^^^

Rob

[Ardent]

Another good read.
You cannot view this attachment.

Edit
We get a very brief mention on page 49

[Petrus]

Dont lift or brake mid corner, simples 😃

This ^^^^

Rob

Untill the unexpected happens guys.
As any experienced rider knows that is not an uncertainty; just the what/when.
It is why some drivers take an advanced skill course like a skid course; to learn what to do when the car skids.

[Petrus]

Another good read.

Edit
We get a very brief mention on page 49

A good one too yes.
The Moss/Eriksson one is way more ´basic´: About tráffic/road skills. A lot less about cár handling skills. less about the skill of driving the cár but about driving it in real world conditions.

Bóth books give foundation, add insight, awareness as tools in your driving skills kit for  mere tenners and reading fun. Preventing óne skid into a ditch or scrape past road furniture is ten to a hundred times that.  Never mind avoid hitting something with a heartbeat.