E10 and the MR2

[Petrus]

1-2% up from E5.
Ah well, only 1-2%.
On top of the 1-2% of E5.

Oh and it´s that much down on power as well; so a handful of horses gone awol on the 1ZZ. Like it  had the stable overpopulated...

Putting the two together:
Because the ethanol makes for less horses, the ones left need to work harder for the same performance. To do that they need to be fed more. Simples.

[fawtytoo]

@Petrus

You can tell a 1-2% drop in power? That equates to approx 3hp. I wouldn't have thought that would be noticeable.

[shnazzle]

@Petrus

You can tell a 1-2% drop in power? That equates to approx 3hp. I wouldn't have thought that would be noticeable.

Good thing about a light car. Have a kak and feel the power

[Ardent]

@Petrus

You can tell a 1-2% drop in power? That equates to approx 3hp. I wouldn't have thought that would be noticeable.

A passenger or full tank vs 1/2 tank vs empty is noticeable.
I'm sure people will notice a trip to the pumps 1-2% sooner.

@Petrus works on a diff set of scales to me.
I view this way. What was actual fuel, now isn't,  another 5% less than what was already 5% less than optimum. Hence E10. 10% of what you put in the tank is not proper fuel. I view it as a bulking agent. It may well burn, but it just ain't the same.
As I have said many times, when putting it in, that is one thing. Move down the other end of the of equation where it comes out again. The injector.
100% fuel vs now 90%. That is going to be noticeable.

[Petrus]

@Petrus

You can tell a 1-2% drop in power? That equates to approx 3hp. I wouldn't have thought that would be noticeable.

Remember; it is times 2 as Jason explains.
So say 5 - 6 hp.
And yes you will notice that. Well, I do.
A different comparison as Jason makes is weight. We have say 130 hp/1000 kg. That is 1,3 hp per 10 kg. and do not tell me you do not notice 40 - 50 more or less.

[fawtytoo]

Wikipedia: Ethanol fuel

Ethanol contains approx. 34% less energy per unit volume than gasoline, and therefore in theory, burning pure ethanol in a vehicle reduces range per unit measure by 34%, given the same fuel economy, compared to burning pure gasoline.

So, comparing E10 to regular (read 100% and NOT E5) fuel, taking into account that ethanol is 66% as combustible as regular fuel is:
90% fuel + 10% ethanol -> 90% + 6.6% = 96.6%

So, you are only going to lose 3.4% overall. Or 1.7% compared to E5. And these numbers can be used to refer to MPG or HP, that is, either 3.4% less economy or 3.4% less hp.

These numbers are smaller than the ones that have been suggested. And all tests should use the same scenario, for example, no passengers, a full tank of petrol with no mixing of fuels and a consistent driving manner.

[thetyrant]

Ive not seen any E10 marked pumps yet all still E5 on them from what ive used, but i have noticed in the past few weeks petrol is smelling different?  so wonder if the E10 is already being put in the tanks, most noticeable on my motorbike but have noticed it when fueling the MR2 as well.

[1979scotte]

Ive not seen any E10 marked pumps yet all still E5 on them from what ive used, but i have noticed in the past few weeks petrol is smelling different?  so wonder if the E10 is already being put in the tanks, most noticeable on my motorbike but have noticed it when fueling the MR2 as well.

Travelled from East to West today not seen an E10 pump

[fawtytoo]

Ive not seen any E10 marked pumps yet all still E5 on them from what ive used, but i have noticed in the past few weeks petrol is smelling different?  so wonder if the E10 is already being put in the tanks, most noticeable on my motorbike but have noticed it when fueling the MR2 as well.

They can't add it without marking it as so.
But I can't say I go round smelling petrol, so can't help you there.

[thetyrant]

They can't add it without marking it as so.
But I can't say I go round smelling petrol, so can't help you there.

Yes that was my thinking but now im wondering!, sat on my bike filling it up there is no doubt it smells different to me and its hard not to smell it when its right under your nose into open tank like that...oh and i do like the smell of petrol

[fawtytoo]

They can't add it without marking it as so.
But I can't say I go round smelling petrol, so can't help you there.

Yes that was my thinking but now im wondering!, sat on my bike filling it up there is no doubt it smells different to me and its hard not to smell it when its right under your nose into open tank like that...oh and i do like the smell of petrol

The only thing I can think of is, given the ethanol is added at the fuel depot, it's been delivered by accident. I've worked in petrol stations in the past and that does happen. Unfortunately, you don't find out until customers complain their cars are running badly.
If the price is the same as E5 and you're happy to have E10 in your car or bike, I wouldn't worry.

[fawtytoo]

To further my last comment about wrong fuel deliveries, another thing that happens at stations sometimes is they may not have enough space in a tank for the delivery they requested. Orders placed by stations is based on predicting sales which doesn't always quite work out. So a particular grade of fuel will be split across 2 or more tanks so the delivery driver can go back to the depot empty. This can mean that a higher grade of fuel is put into a lower grade tank, so you (as the customer) are always purchasing a minimum grade of fuel but never lower.

Whether or not a station will take a grade of fuel that it doesn't advertise for sale and mix it with a lower grade, I do not know. But I doubt it.

[Petrus]

They can't add it without marking it as so.
But I can't say I go round smelling petrol, so can't help you there.

Yes that was my thinking but now im wondering!, sat on my bike filling it up there is no doubt it smells different to me and its hard not to smell it when its right under your nose into open tank like that...oh and i do like the smell of petrol

It does smell differently. Same when lead alternatives were added.
As was observed, the ethanol contents is on the most volatile side of the mix and it changes ´fragrancy´ accordingly again.

@fawtytoo
3,5 - 4% less weight or more power or more fuel economy is more than most marketeers get to haloo about for a new model launch, so the loss of such is no mean thing is it?!

[Petrus]

To further my last comment about wrong fuel deliveries, another thing that happens at stations sometimes is they may not have enough space in a tank for the delivery they requested. Orders placed by stations is based on predicting sales which doesn't always quite work out. So a particular grade of fuel will be split across 2 or more tanks so the delivery driver can go back to the depot empty. This can mean that a higher grade of fuel is put into a lower grade tank, so you (as the customer) are always purchasing a minimum grade of fuel but never lower.

Whether or not a station will take a grade of fuel that it doesn't advertise for sale and mix it with a lower grade, I do not know. But I doubt it.

Hmmmm. Not sure I follow all of that logic. They never have a surplus of the lowest grade? Or do I read something wrong?

[Ardent]

Wikipedia: Ethanol fuel

Ethanol contains approx. 34% less energy per unit volume than gasoline, and therefore in theory, burning pure ethanol in a vehicle reduces range per unit measure by 34%, given the same fuel economy, compared to burning pure gasoline.

So, comparing E10 to regular (read 100% and NOT E5) fuel, taking into account that ethanol is 66% as combustible as regular fuel is:
90% fuel + 10% ethanol -> 90% + 6.6% = 96.6%

So, you are only going to lose 3.4% overall. Or 1.7% compared to E5. And these numbers can be used to refer to MPG or HP, that is, either 3.4% less economy or 3.4% less hp.

These numbers are smaller than the ones that have been suggested. And all tests should use the same scenario, for example, no passengers, a full tank of petrol with no mixing of fuels and a consistent driving manner.

Whichever way we choose to present the numbers. The end result is the same.
Less mpg. Less power.
Anything Less than optimal is not good. We are now further away from optimal than we were.

[Ardent]

On the smell front. Did not notice when putting. But have noticed a diff smell when following others.

Accept could be loads of things. But curious only noticed of late.

[fawtytoo]

To further my last comment about wrong fuel deliveries, another thing that happens at stations sometimes is they may not have enough space in a tank for the delivery they requested. Orders placed by stations is based on predicting sales which doesn't always quite work out. So a particular grade of fuel will be split across 2 or more tanks so the delivery driver can go back to the depot empty. This can mean that a higher grade of fuel is put into a lower grade tank, so you (as the customer) are always purchasing a minimum grade of fuel but never lower.

Whether or not a station will take a grade of fuel that it doesn't advertise for sale and mix it with a lower grade, I do not know. But I doubt it.

Hmmmm. Not sure I follow all of that logic. They never have a surplus of the lowest grade? Or do I read something wrong?

It's not meant to be logical. It's predicted, and as such, the station will avoid ordering too much of the lower grades (across a period of time, e.g. weekly) in case it won't fit.

[normanh]

My local Sainsburys has E10 on all of the Unleaded pumps but confirmed its still E5 until September. I filled up on Tuesday.

Norman

[thetyrant]

On the smell front. Did not notice when putting. But have noticed a diff smell when following others.

Accept could be loads of things. But curious only noticed of late.

Yes noticed that as well following people, main place i notice the smell now is opening garage and i keep checking for fuel leaks on the bike but there isnt any!, yet inside  my garage smells very fuelly and sweeter smell which im sure is more ethanol content but its a guess without testing it.

Also i drive past a BP garage everyday going to work and never used to really smell the fuel but now i do, something is going on im sure.

For those worried about lack of power/economy  etc just put the "good stuff" in, as in Super unleaded as apparently all 97+ octane SUL fuel will remain E5, that said i doubt anyone will notice the slight difference in E10 day to day in an MR2.

[fawtytoo]

For those worried about lack of power/economy  etc just put the "good stuff" in, as in Super unleaded as apparently all 97+ octane SUL fuel will remain E5, that said i doubt anyone will notice the slight difference in E10 day to day in an MR2.

I'm more concerned with the price. If E10 is cheaper to produce, then that saving should be passed on to the consumer.

For those that it's already available to, is it much more expensive?

[Dev]

We have been using 10% ethanol for many years without any issue in modern fuel injected cars. The problem occurs with cars, motorcycles and older lawn equipment that uses a carburetor. 
You should not notice anything dramatic except for a decrease in efficiency but if you store your car seasonally I would recommend using a fuel stabilizer. There is also phase separation issues where the alcohol will attract water and I have heard that it can be highly corrosive to your gas tank. There have been a few owners that bought questionable used examples of our cars and had to have the tank replaced. This concerns me so I use a ethanol additive with every fill up.

 I hate the stuff as it made an older motorcycle gum up the jets when it sat in storage and was a pain to clean out. It has also ruined the fuel lines in my lawn equipment where it became brittle and cracked.  The new lines that I replaced them with is made of a different material that resists this issue and most modern equipment takes this into consideration and no longer have these issue but it is too early to tell.

I think the idea of adding ethanol to fuel is asinine as its mostly political just like energy efficient appliances that has endless service issues.

This year I plan to find an ethanol free pump before the season ends because I am terrified of the prospect of having to replace the tank. 

[Ardent]

For those that it's already available to, is it much more expensive?

With ref to post 42. @normanh
I wonder if the same scenario here. Labels changed. But still E5 as price I paid was the same.

[Joesson]

On the smell front. Did not notice when putting. But have noticed a diff smell when following others.

Accept could be loads of things. But curious only noticed of late.

Slightly, well quite a lot of the main topic, but right on the smell part. When exhaust  Catalysers first became a thing on cars, apart from some catching the grass alight, there was a smell of bad eggs when following a new car.
Not noticed that for a long time now, so what happened  with that?

[fawtytoo]

Sulphur smells like bad eggs. Petrol has reduced sulphur these days.

[Ardent]

Mini update.

Went back to the fuel station to enquire if E5 or E10.
As luck would have it.
They were taking a delivery. Had a quick chat with the tanker driver. Currently def E5.

He confirmed change over September.