Initial brake feel

[Ardent]

The brakes work fine and stop very well.

I know there is supposed (and is) free play

But I'd just like the pedal to be a little firmer at the top.

Any tips?

[Joesson]

@Ardent
Jason, If you are light footed on the brakes they may not be self adjusting completely.
I suggest, and practice it myself, when stationary/ parked with the engine on, handbrake off give the brake pedal, a few very firm pumps.
See what difference that makes for you.

[Gaz mr-s]

Does it feel spongey/air ?

[shnazzle]

Bleed brakes. Properly.
Change of pads. The Yellowstuff are a cost-effective way to get that "bite".
That and your flexi lines may be past best. Replace or replace with braided.

Massive difference in "bite" between pads. My opinion:

Blueprint are - - - - - - ======
Toyota oem are - - - - - =====+
Pagid are - - - =======++++
Mtec are - - =======++++
Brembo same as mtec. Maybe a bit more stable across the braking force
Yellowstuff are ==+++++++

That's all I've tried so far.

On top of that I'd say a fresh bleed with good fluid can make a lot of those "-" feel like "="

[Ardent]

@Joesson
I do, do that. For the reasons we have discussed many moons ago.
The self adjustment is working fine.
Pads are an interference fit.

@Gaz mr-s
No. Bled a month ago. But might do them again fir the hell of it.

No spongeyness. Just looking for a firm peddle straight off.

[Ardent]

@shnazzle

Will bleed again.
Flexi swapped out a while ago. Hel lines.

On pagids now.

Maybe be it is age of pads. Don't know.
Not saying they don't work. They do.
All very much in the foot to pedal feel.

For all I know, Mr T. Designed it that way for day to day, soft n gentle to start, then increase.

[Gaz mr-s]

If you are going to bleed them again Jason, you could try using your phone (assuming smartphone) & video the container to see if you get any bubbles.
I was watching a vid recently by an amateur racer & he said that Rogue bleed the brakes with the engine running. No further info....

[shnazzle]

@shnazzle

Will bleed again.
Flexi swapped out a while ago. Hel lines.

On pagids now.

Maybe be it is age of pads. Don't know.
Not saying they don't work. They do.
All very much in the foot to pedal feel.

For all I know, Mr T. Designed it that way for day to day, soft n gentle to start, then increase.

I found the pagids much as you describe, and as I tried to describe in my make-shift diagrams.

They allow for well-dosed, gentle braking day to day but bite more than plenty when needed. Great pads.
But the mtecs and definitely yellows just give you that immediate thump. When you first put the yellows in you have to get used to it but once you are personally I think your control over the brakes increases.

[Ardent]

Cheers for the responses.

[Dev]

It would be a good idea to drive someone else's car and then you will know if it is normal or not.
If it is normal there are three ways to get a firmer pedal up top and that is to have calipers that has smaller brake fluid volume than OEM or increase the bore size of the master to take up the slack.
The third way is to use a brake brace that stops the master from flexing against the firewall.

On the flipside it gets worse when you adopt larger calipers. They may stop better or lock up sooner but the pedal feel will be closer to the bottom which is not great. This is why big brake caliper kits needs a correctly sized master.

[Petrus]

No spongeyness. Just looking for a firm peddle straight off.

Not happening Jason.
Imo it is the design of the handbrake pistons and abs.
Even swapping to braided lines makes nó difference at all as the OEM ones are simply good quality.

It is good practice what Joesson writes.
You can then also feel that the give is in the system; the pedal begets more play when started up.

For road use I loath pads with initial bite; I want the brakes to be linear. That is as predictable as it gets and gives you the best modulation.

For real wordl use you are likely to drive with different shoes, different soles and it is more forgiving if the brakes are linear and need a bit more pressure.

[Joesson]

No spongeyness. Just looking for a firm peddle straight off.

Not happening Jason.
Imo it is the design of the handbrake pistons and abs.
Even swapping to braided lines makes nó difference at all as the OEM ones are simply good quality.

It is good practice what Joesson writes.
You can then also feel that the give is in the system; the pedal begets more play when started up.

For road use I loath pads with initial bite; I want the brakes to be linear. That is as predictable as it gets and gives you the best modulation.

For real wordl use you are likely to drive with different shoes, different soles and it is more forgiving if the brakes are linear and need a bit more pressure.

I like linear.

[Dev]

No spongeyness. Just looking for a firm peddle straight off.

Not happening Jason.
Imo it is the design of the handbrake pistons and abs.
Even swapping to braided lines makes nó difference at all as the OEM ones are simply good quality.

It is good practice what Joesson writes.
You can then also feel that the give is in the system; the pedal begets more play when started up.

For road use I loath pads with initial bite; I want the brakes to be linear. That is as predictable as it gets and gives you the best modulation.

For real wordl use you are likely to drive with different shoes, different soles and it is more forgiving if the brakes are linear and need a bit more pressure.

I have mentioned this many times. The solution is very simple and inexpensive. All that is needed is to switch just the fronts to the small Willwood calipers. The displacement is less than the OEM which causes the pedal to be firmer up top because the output volume of the master takes up the slack quickly because there is less volume to fill. Its very elementary and some other platforms change out their brake master cylinder to one that has a larger bore because having a firmer pedal up top is a desirable trait. With our platform no one has tried this yet but it might be possible to try a different master with a slightly larger bore. I wonder if a slightly larger car like the Corolla or older Yaris would have what we need.

Where it gets interesting and probably purely by chance the Willwood caliper has the same swept area area as the OEM caliper. This means that the pad real-estate is the same which is a good thing because there is no alteration of the brake bias. There is a  alteration of the modulation for the better because it takes more effort to achieve the same braking pressure giving you that nice firm feel that feels less boosted.

  I could care less about ultimate braking or any kind of bite or fade resistance. What is important for a street car is braking feel and linear modulation which gives me confidence and when you have the pedal feel firm up top it makes driving at all times even slow and applying the brakes a real joy. 

 

[Ardent]

All good posts.

I would have thought the handbrake mech would only come into play if NOT operating correctly. My auto adjusters are working as they should. Pads are an interference fit. No slack there.

Do the small will woods fit 15s?

Went round again and re bled. Either I did not do as good a job 1st time, or air is getting in. As pulled some more out.

Test drive. Same as before.
I believe this is the intended setup.
Softly for the day to day.
But if you want your nose up against the screen it will do that as well.

Good point about different footwear.

[Dev]

Do the small will woods fit 15s?

Yes and I believe someone was able to use 14 inch wheels with clearance because the calipers are smaller in size than OEM however it has the same swept area. They also have a radial mounting opposed to axial which is a controversial topic but it is also believed to have a benefit to better braking feel due to less flex.
 No need for different sized rotors or any of that other nonsense you find with big brake kits which are useless for a car like ours except for looks. It was very easy to install and when the time comes for pad replacement it can be done in minutes as they just drop in from the top.

[Ardent]

Had a look on the willwood site dialed in the year, make etc returned nothing.

Maybe stopped doing.

Note to self, need to read up on radial mounting

[1979scotte]

Had a look on the willwood site dialed in the year, make etc returned nothing.

Maybe stopped doing.

Note to self, need to read up on radial mounting

There is a thread about it.
Fella from spyderchat does the brackets.

[Dev]

Had a look on the willwood site dialed in the year, make etc returned nothing.

Maybe stopped doing.

Note to self, need to read up on radial mounting

There is a relevant thread in the general section that was posted last year with current information and where to buy the bracket hardware and lines. You can then buy the calipers and pads locally. We will have to double check but I am 90% certain these are the calipers.
https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=45&products_id=13899

Here is where you can purchase the brackets. 
https://www.mitchsautoparts.com/collections/brake-kits/products/jimbo-brake-kit-for-toyota-mr2-spyder?variant=38151111114933

It is available but its best to search to see if they are right for you but the good thing is, it is reversible if you want to go back to OEM and very easy to do.

[1979scotte]

Had a look on the willwood site dialed in the year, make etc returned nothing.

Maybe stopped doing.

Note to self, need to read up on radial mounting

There is a relevant thread in the general section that was posted last year with current information and where to buy the bracket hardware and lines. You can then buy the calipers and pads locally. We will have to double check but I am 90% certain these are the calipers.
https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=45&products_id=13899

Here is where you can purchase the brackets. 
https://www.mitchsautoparts.com/collections/brake-kits/products/jimbo-brake-kit-for-toyota-mr2-spyder?variant=38151111114933

It is available but its best to search to see if they are right for you but the good thing is, it is reversible if you want to go back to OEM and very easy to do.

I remember being put off by the fact that it says max vehicle weight 750kg.
Not sure the insurance man would like it.

[Ardent]

Thank you all.

Some more bedtime reading for me.

[Dev]

Had a look on the willwood site dialed in the year, make etc returned nothing.

Maybe stopped doing.

Note to self, need to read up on radial mounting

There is a relevant thread in the general section that was posted last year with current information and where to buy the bracket hardware and lines. You can then buy the calipers and pads locally. We will have to double check but I am 90% certain these are the calipers.
https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=45&products_id=13899

Here is where you can purchase the brackets. 
https://www.mitchsautoparts.com/collections/brake-kits/products/jimbo-brake-kit-for-toyota-mr2-spyder?variant=38151111114933

It is available but its best to search to see if they are right for you but the good thing is, it is reversible if you want to go back to OEM and very easy to do.

I remember being put off by the fact that it says max vehicle weight 750kg.
Not sure the insurance man would like it.

    True however they have been used successfully in the MX-5 and offered as a street/ track kit and it was reported to be a performance upgrade depending on the kind of pads used. If there are any legalities with inspection on the technical side its probably not worth doing. 
I am using their least aggressive pad and my car has the same stoping power as before which is able to activate the abs with extreme performance summer tires that are often used for track.

[Dev]

I sent Willwood an email regarding the 750kg rating for the powerlite. There is another vendor for the MX-5 that uses the powerlite calipers and said that the only difference would be accelerated pad wear. 
 I should hear back from them shortly. 

 Like most things being an exclusive car has its disadvantages when it comes to what everyone else is doing and we are often left out.

 I found this interesting. 
https://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product/ssc-brake-master-cylinder-lotus-eliseexige-big-bore/


We need something like this and Im willing to bet there is another master cylinder from another Toyota product that could possibly bolt up to the brake booster with a slightly larger bore.
 The pedal characteristics for our car was most likely chosen to be on the weak side so average people would not complain. We are not average. 

[Dev]

The plot thickens.

After doing some deep research I found something of value.
 The Corolla/ Matrix/ Celica have a bore diameter of 0.813"
 The MR-S uses a bore diameter of 0.875"
 Previous generation MR2 and midsized cars and trucks used .9375"  Keep in mind that these cars will have larger calipers and more fluid displacement so the pedal softness will be relative and not stiffer as you would think.

  This would be perfect but the mounting is off unfortunately and will not be a direct swap as I thought. actually all of them are different and will require modifications. The closest to what works would be the one for the lotus but the mount holes are in the wrong place and it looks like they have taken a factory part and modified the flanges to fit the lotus. 
 
  Going to a 1" might be too much for most people as they will feel closer to manual brakes which is not a bad thing as you will have great modulation but for emergency situations where you need to lock the brakes quickly it will be delayed and you need a good amount of pedal effort. The .9375 would have been perfect but its too bad the car will require extensive mods to get it to work. 

It appears that Toyota gave us some brake feel with something larger than their sub compact cars so its not exactly parts bin as we were told. 

Edit: The Toyota Echo uses the same calipers as our car.  It appears it uses the same master as the last generation Celica which has a smaller bore. It is looking more likely that Toyota intentionally gave us better feel in the brakes by making them stiffer.     

 

[Bossworld]

One minor thing to consider Dev (probably just in terms of placement) but our RHD cars have the master cylinder on the other side, and the design is cosmetically different too.

Only found out by accident when I realised I'd been harbouring a LHD spare, but the reservoir is a different shape too. I assume your findings re: bore remain the same but just thought I'd mention.

[Petrus]

It is looking more likely that Toyota intentionally gave us better feel in the brakes by making them stiffer.     

As I obeserved there is sóme initial design (emergency brake and abs) ´give´ in the system but from there it is quite good. The initial give is probably a good safety thing for the vast majority of the intended buyers. It precludes immediate lock up by the heavy footed but still gives good modulation for spirited driving.