Interesting video on air intakes.

[Dev]

I seen this yesterday. Im not saying that the dyno is correct or the information is correct but it is interesting that someone did this. 
 When we say that intakes do not matter and the stock one is best that is true only because most of the aftermarket intakes are not calibrated and will under report the amount if air making the car run lean.
 
 For my 2ZZ I have a calibrated MAF tube with vanes that fixes many of the issues with cheaper intakes especially at part throttle and the power was noticeable. 
 The reason why the OEM intake for the 1ZZ works well is primarily because of the vanes. If someone designed a proper calibrated intake there would be benefits.
 
I know of some members that tried to make their own 3D printed intakes with vanes after I brought it to their attention but I warned them that you cant simply eye ball it and add vanes. The tube must be precisely calibrated otherwise it will not work which it didn't although they reported it was better than what they had. 

What I found interesting here is the best intake that worked for the 1ZZ in this video was the OEM 2ZZ Celica intake tube that was cut out of its box. I think it offered a little more air flow however the MAF may have been  reporting the correct amount of air or close to it  allowing the ECU to increase the injector duty cycle and timing to take advantage of more power.

 I was planing to run my own experiment with fitting my Cobb 2ZZ intake on a locals car to see if there was any advantage but unfortunately the local member just had shoulder surgery and his car is in storage. If someone would like I can find a used Cobb intake on eBay and send it over there for someone that would like to test and see how it works for the 1ZZ. The costs including shipping will have to be covered by the tester otherwise someone could do what this guy did and find a used Celica intake and cut out the MAF tube.

Anyway here is the video.

[JB21]

I'm using a Rouge motorsports custom intake on my 2zz that seems to work well. It consists of a custom maf pipe, BCM CDA with cold air ducting all the way to the NS air vent.

Never tried anything else for comparison, but seems to pick up nicely and the spark plugs all have a nice even burn pattern indicating its not running rich/lean.

Going to get it on a dyno soon to see what it puts out and what the AFR's are saying.

[Dev]

I'm using a Rouge motorsports custom intake on my 2zz that seems to work well. It consists of a custom maf pipe, BCM CDA with cold air ducting all the way to the NS air vent.

Never tried anything else for comparison, but seems to pick up nicely and the spark plugs all have a nice even burn pattern indicating its not running rich/lean.

Going to get it on a dyno soon to see what it puts out and what the AFR's are saying.

Are you using an aftermarket ECU?
 When I had my own custom hacked up EBay intake my car ran well except for a little bogging when the car was cold. The 02 sensors will see that the car is running lean due to the under reporting MAF and add fuel to keep it Stoichiometric but it will not increase timing or even the VVT for power, it will just keep the engine from running lean. It will not be obvious that its losing power but after you add a calibrated intake it will then be obvious with more torque at part throttle and generally just a more OEM kind of drive that feels right with smooth power.
 
That increase in fuel will be a genuine result of less restriction and not compensation if the ECU is able to read exactly how much air has entered so it can do its fuel and timing calculations for given RPMs.

[The Other Stu]

I'm using a Rouge motorsports custom intake on my 2zz that seems to work well. It consists of a custom maf pipe, BCM CDA with cold air ducting all the way to the NS air vent.

Never tried anything else for comparison, but seems to pick up nicely and the spark plugs all have a nice even burn pattern indicating its not running rich/lean.

Going to get it on a dyno soon to see what it puts out and what the AFR's are saying.

I have the same setup. Like you, need to get dyno'd.

[Zspeed]

I seen this yesterday. Im not saying that the dyno is correct or the information is correct but it is interesting that someone did this. 
 When we say that intakes do not matter and the stock one is best that is true only because most of the aftermarket intakes are not calibrated and will under report the amount if air making the car run lean.
 
 For my 2ZZ I have a calibrated MAF tube with vanes that fixes many of the issues with cheaper intakes especially at part throttle and the power was noticeable. 
 The reason why the OEM intake for the 1ZZ works well is primarily because of the vanes. If someone designed a proper calibrated intake there would be benefits.
 
I know of some members that tried to make their own 3D printed intakes with vanes after I brought it to their attention but I warned them that you cant simply eye ball it and add vanes. The tube must be precisely calibrated otherwise it will not work which it didn't although they reported it was better than what they had. 

What I found interesting here is the best intake that worked for the 1ZZ in this video was the OEM 2ZZ Celica intake tube that was cut out of its box. I think it offered a little more air flow however the MAF may have been  reporting the correct amount of air or close to it  allowing the ECU to increase the injector duty cycle and timing to take advantage of more power.

 I was planing to run my own experiment with fitting my Cobb 2ZZ intake on a locals car to see if there was any advantage but unfortunately the local member just had shoulder surgery and his car is in storage. If someone would like I can find a used Cobb intake on eBay and send it over there for someone that would like to test and see how it works for the 1ZZ. The costs including shipping will have to be covered by the tester otherwise someone could do what this guy did and find a used Celica intake and cut out the MAF tube.

Anyway here is the video.

Send it to Danny from the video.

I believe the chap that said to me he is getting power is doing something similar. Obviously Danny's car is set up for racing within restrictions but he is already getting a nice little increase over stock from his other tweaks. I assume most of, if not all of the championship racers are doing something similar as it's very competitive. 

I see the apexi intake is not cheap, but doing it with the 2zz would be, as long as it's not detrimental to the engine. Do you think there would be any side effects to the car?

[Dev]

I see the apexi intake is not cheap, but doing it with the 2zz would be, as long as it's not detrimental to the engine. Do you think there would be any side effects to the car?

The Apexi intake is interesting because it is trying to do what Toyota does with the vanes. Injen is another intake company that tried to calibrate their intakes by narrowing the tube at the point just before the MAF.
These are relatively new developments from intake manufactures because they understand the need to build intakes to match the OEM calibration.  This is something that cannot be guessed and approximated, it requires a flow bench and equipment to measure the MAF signal with the correct scaling.

  I have debated other enthusiasts for years on the purpose of the vanes in the intake. They have made wild assumptions that its for turbulence which it is not. The purpose of the vanes is to speed up the airflow against the MAF hot wire and by doing so it cools it down which creates a value that can be read by the ECU so it knows precisely how much air has entered the engine. With out the vanes the ECU will under report the amount of air which makes it actually lose power especially at part throttle and midrange torque.

As far as detrimental effects of running aftermarket intakes of any kind it shouldn't harm the engine because the O2 sensors rules all of the fueling. If it reports that it is lean it will add fuel and if it reports rich it will subtract fuel. However aftermarket intakes that use the foam or oil/gauze type of filtration is bad for the car as they have shown though oil analysis to let in too much particulate that can harm the engine over time.  The solution is to use a dry flow filter.

 As far as using the 2ZZ intake tube I have a feeling that as long as its calibrated for the MAF it will report the volume of air entering the engine regardless if the intake is slightly larger than the 1ZZ. Both the 1ZZ and 2ZZ use the same MAF. The only thing that would invalidate my assumption is if the ECUs scale differently. 

 This might be a good way to gain 3-5 whp depending on what exhaust is being used so that it acts synergistically with less restrictions.

[JB21]

Would honeycomb air straighteners not do the same thing as veins?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cold+air+intake+air+straightener&sxsrf=ALeKk00B0Xcfn1sQCz4burUcmyF2B2CKrA%3A1627662833128&source=hp&ei=8SkEYcDmBc6X8gLHzb3IDA&oq=air+intake+air+str&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBABGAAyBggAEBYQHjIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIECCEQFTIICCEQFhAdEB4yCAghEBYQHRAeMggIIRAWEB0QHjoHCCMQ6gIQJzoHCC4Q6gIQJzoECCMQJzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6EQguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBEKMCOggIABCABBCxAzoFCAAQgAQ6CAgAEIAEEMkDOgUIABCSAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQyQNQphBYkDhgzUFoAXAAeACAAdICiAG1EJIBBzkuNy4wLjKYAQCgAQGwAQ8&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp#imgrc=R8hSy_Iwd2-RXM&scso=_-ykEYeOKH4TBgQa_xbyYAg3:487.75

[Dev]

Would honeycomb air straighteners not do the same thing as veins?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cold+air+intake+air+straightener&sxsrf=ALeKk00B0Xcfn1sQCz4burUcmyF2B2CKrA%3A1627662833128&source=hp&ei=8SkEYcDmBc6X8gLHzb3IDA&oq=air+intake+air+str&gs_lcp=ChFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocBABGAAyBggAEBYQHjIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIECCEQFTIICCEQFhAdEB4yCAghEBYQHRAeMggIIRAWEB0QHjoHCCMQ6gIQJzoHCC4Q6gIQJzoECCMQJzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQgwE6EQguEIAEELEDEIMBEMcBEKMCOggIABCABBCxAzoFCAAQgAQ6CAgAEIAEEMkDOgUIABCSAzoLCAAQgAQQsQMQyQNQphBYkDhgzUFoAXAAeACAAdICiAG1EJIBBzkuNy4wLjKYAQCgAQGwAQ8&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp#imgrc=R8hSy_Iwd2-RXM&scso=_-ykEYeOKH4TBgQa_xbyYAg3:487.75

No unfortunately they wont. The honeycomb will help with laminar flow which was what they used on older intake designs from the 90s. Those intakes had the MAF wire along the length of the intake tube. 

 The vanes do straighten the air but that is not its primary function.  What is does is simulate a smaller tube in the intake so that air velocity speeds up.  The reason why they do it this way is to give the MAF sensor the smallest foot print in the intake so it doesn't become an obstruction.  Also it makes the MAF reading more consistent with this kind of design.

 There have been a few intake makers that tried to make vane inserts  before the MAF to mimic what they think it does which is straighten the air and it actually lost power on the dyno.

When making the vanes it has to be design precisely and the tube needs to be flow tested. That is why inserts and 3D printed designs from enthusiast did not work. The Cobb MAF tube I have was flow tested and calibrated to OEM specs with exactly the right size tube down to the mm. There is no room for error. 

[onenastyviper]

It is possible that the vanes ahead of the MAF are for flow straightening. In the standard setup, the MAF is very close to the airbox and the flow paths are not straight. For almost all insertion type flowmeters (which the MAF is) there is usually a minimum straight length of pipe requirements upstream and downstream to let the flow sort itself out in the pipe (usually measured in pipe-diameters for example 3xD upstream and 5xD downstream). If you can't manage this then you can insert flow "conditioning" devices in that nudge the flow into the required profile for the sensing element.

The "honeycomb" devices are type of flow conditioner typically used (well, in the circumstances I've come across) as vortex/swirl breakers. Swirling flow can be generated from rotating elements (i.e spinning pumps, fans etc.) or from static bends which cause the flow to "wrap" on itself. Flow measurements tend to be aligned with the flow but swirl introduces errors because it no longer aligns with the pipe. The honeycomb breaks up swirl into a series of smaller, shorter swirls (or vortices) and gives the flow a chance to stabilise. Nothing is free so the cost is a pressure drop across the element. If you have a pump then you can "adjust" parameters (i.e. pump speed, impeller diameter etc.) to offset and maintain the flow. If you rely on a static pressure different (i.e. N/A engine intake) then that dP could be a detrimental flow restriction.

[Rallyeluke]

I am running the 2zz maf housing with a dastek unichip and a ram air enclosed air filter and it feels wonderful. Its all anecdotal as I have not had it on a rolling road but it feels aggressive and spritely.

[Dev]

It is possible that the vanes ahead of the MAF are for flow straightening. In the standard setup, the MAF is very close to the airbox and the flow paths are not straight. For almost all insertion type flowmeters (which the MAF is) there is usually a minimum straight length of pipe requirements upstream and downstream to let the flow sort itself out in the pipe (usually measured in pipe-diameters for example 3xD upstream and 5xD downstream). If you can't manage this then you can insert flow "conditioning" devices in that nudge the flow into the required profile for the sensing element.

The "honeycomb" devices are type of flow conditioner typically used (well, in the circumstances I've come across) as vortex/swirl breakers. Swirling flow can be generated from rotating elements (i.e spinning pumps, fans etc.) or from static bends which cause the flow to "wrap" on itself. Flow measurements tend to be aligned with the flow but swirl introduces errors because it no longer aligns with the pipe. The honeycomb breaks up swirl into a series of smaller, shorter swirls (or vortices) and gives the flow a chance to stabilise. Nothing is free so the cost is a pressure drop across the element. If you have a pump then you can "adjust" parameters (i.e. pump speed, impeller diameter etc.) to offset and maintain the flow. If you rely on a static pressure different (i.e. N/A engine intake) then that dP could be a detrimental flow restriction.

It is a kind of straighter as I mentioned but that is not its purpose. Its purpose is the simulate a smaller tube so that the air is speeds up so the MAF sensor wire is cooled down to report the correct electrical resistance so the ECU knows how much air has entered the engine. 
Without the vanes the hot wire is not cooled down enough and therefore it under reports which is not good and you will lose power on various areas along the RPM band.   
Aftermarket intake manufactures recognize this now and are making calibrated intakes that either narrow the tube before the MAF or add walls as you see with the Apexi intake. The best intakes are the ones that use vanes like the factory however you just don't add them the entire intake has to be flow tested with the MAF and the electrical resistance has to be precisely measured which is not something a DIY person can do.

 Here is a video on the Injen MR technology which is nothing more than narrowing the tube so the MAF reports the correct amount of air.  I do not like this technology because it is less efficient.
 

If you add a honeycomb it will not do anything for this kind of intake system. Turbulence is not an issue with this kind of MAF housing because the foot print is very small. Honeycomb arrangement were what older air sensors used.

[Dev]

I am running the 2zz maf housing with a dastek unichip and a ram air enclosed air filter and it feels wonderful. Its all anecdotal as I have not had it on a rolling road but it feels aggressive and spritely.

 Good to hear. What you get when the air intake is reporting the correct amount of air is a OEM kind of drive.
   It use to be that you can optimize the performance if you tune without having any vanes but it seems that in some tuning circles particularly the Subaru community they have found that the vanes make scaling for fuel more consistent. Therefore companies have made larger diameter intakes with vanes in them.

[Zspeed]

Can someone advise what happens when you hit lift in a car with a normal setup as my experience is limited?

I have just removed what turned out to be a rather crude CAI from my recently aquired roadster and installed an oem air box with a 2zz maf pipe like @Rallyeluke and then took it for a short test drive. When you get to about 5800rpm it changes completely and is far more aggressive and noisy.  I'm not sure if it's more like it should be (oem) or I have got an improvement over oem.  This is despite my cat pipe being bust open quite badly at the Flexis (i waiting on a Zero).

Excuse my lack of experience.

Thanks

[Call the midlife!]

Shame they couldn't get the HKS on as that's what I have on mine, totally non standard set up  anyway  but would've been good to see how it performed against the others on that set up.

[Dev]

Can someone advise what happens when you hit lift in a car with a normal setup as my experience is limited?

I have just removed what turned out to be a rather crude CAI from my recently aquired roadster and installed an oem air box with a 2zz maf pipe like @Rallyeluke and then took it for a short test drive. When you get to about 5800rpm it changes completely and is far more aggressive and noisy.  I'm not sure if it's more like it should be (oem) or I have got an improvement over oem.  This is despite my cat pipe being bust open quite badly at the Flexis (i waiting on a Zero).

Excuse my lack of experience.

Thanks

Is this for a 1ZZ engine or a 2ZZ engine?

[Zspeed]

Can someone advise what happens when you hit lift in a car with a normal setup as my experience is limited?

I have just removed what turned out to be a rather crude CAI from my recently aquired roadster and installed an oem air box with a 2zz maf pipe like @Rallyeluke and then took it for a short test drive. When you get to about 5800rpm it changes completely and is far more aggressive and noisy.  I'm not sure if it's more like it should be (oem) or I have got an improvement over oem.  This is despite my cat pipe being bust open quite badly at the Flexis (i waiting on a Zero).

Excuse my lack of experience.

Thanks

Is this for a 1ZZ engine or a 2ZZ engine?

1zz engine, standard oem airbox. Have a 2zz maf pipe cut out of 2zz airbox and cut the 1zz maf pipe out to replace it with the 2zz.

I will add a couple of pics

[Zspeed]

Here you go. Toyota knows best so combined both Toyota bits.

When I took the CAI out I realised how rubbish it was. The pipe had a large hole right near the maf and was only 60mm wide. I get the impression from what I have read that the tube size was important.

Makes me wonder if I have been missing out to start with but the engine now gets really aggressive after 5500 revs.

[Dev]

Can someone advise what happens when you hit lift in a car with a normal setup as my experience is limited?

I have just removed what turned out to be a rather crude CAI from my recently aquired roadster and installed an oem air box with a 2zz maf pipe like @Rallyeluke and then took it for a short test drive. When you get to about 5800rpm it changes completely and is far more aggressive and noisy.  I'm not sure if it's more like it should be (oem) or I have got an improvement over oem.  This is despite my cat pipe being bust open quite badly at the Flexis (i waiting on a Zero).

Excuse my lack of experience.

Thanks

Is this for a 1ZZ engine or a 2ZZ engine?

1zz engine, standard oem airbox. Have a 2zz maf pipe cut out of 2zz airbox and cut the 1zz maf pipe out to replace it with the 2zz.

I will add a couple of pics

Pics would be great. Now that I know what engine you have I can tell you that there is no lift with a 1zz motor or any change over point. The VVT with intelligence is usually always on adjusting the valves where you don't notice. It's nothing like lift on a 2ZZ motor.

[Zspeed]

Pics would be great. Now that I know what engine you have I can tell you that there is no lift with a 1zz motor or any change over point. The VVT with intelligence is usually always on adjusting the valves where you don't notice. It's nothing like lift on a 2ZZ motor.
[/quote]

Something is happening, it must be where my exhaust is knackered and the car is no longer restricted by it and the thin maf pipe that was on there before. Looking forward to the replacement so I can get out for a proper drive.

[Roj]

For a 1ZZ engine running a stock airbox you'd be as well just running the stock 1ZZ MAF housing. Those running a different MAF housing are also running open/cone/carbon can air filters.

[Dev]

What Roj mentioned is correct. If you source the correct silicon coupler on both ends you can essentially make your own short ram intake using the 2ZZ MAF housing. It would run from the throttle body to the back of the battery where the air filter is attached. This way you have both a cold short ram intake that makes a nice sound.  Without the restriction from the OEM filter housing gains could possibly be made. 

[Zspeed]

What Roj mentioned is correct. If you source the correct silicon coupler on both ends you can essentially make your own short ram intake using the 2ZZ MAF housing. It would run from the throttle body to the back of the battery where the air filter is attached. This way you have both a cold short ram intake that makes a nice sound.  Without the restriction from the OEM filter housing gains could possibly be made. 

I got the impression from many on the forum that the induction kits like that have very little, if any effect on the car performance and was more about noise.

That is what was already on the car, but after researching this particular setup was quite poor and probably restrictive.  The maf pipe was only 60mm diameter, and for some reason had a hole in it opposite the maf to the engine bay allowing unfiltered engine warmed air into the engine. I just didn't see it until I took it off. 

People seem to suggest that Toyota know best so using the stock system should do the same job if not better. It does make sense to do something like the markii pipe and am hoping to order some hose like Petrus as a cheaper option.

Once the exhaust is sorted I will have a better idea. I'm still hoping I can sort a dyno out with my brother when he is getting his race car done, but I think it is sometime off.

[Dev]

What Roj mentioned is correct. If you source the correct silicon coupler on both ends you can essentially make your own short ram intake using the 2ZZ MAF housing. It would run from the throttle body to the back of the battery where the air filter is attached. This way you have both a cold short ram intake that makes a nice sound.  Without the restriction from the OEM filter housing gains could possibly be made. 

I got the impression from many on the forum that the induction kits like that have very little, if any effect on the car performance and was more about noise.

That is what was already on the car, but after researching this particular setup was quite poor and probably restrictive.  The maf pipe was only 60mm diameter, and for some reason had a hole in it opposite the maf to the engine bay allowing unfiltered engine warmed air into the engine. I just didn't see it until I took it off. 

People seem to suggest that Toyota know best so using the stock system should do the same job if not better. It does make sense to do something like the markii pipe and am hoping to order some hose like Petrus as a cheaper option.

Once the exhaust is sorted I will have a better idea. I'm still hoping I can sort a dyno out with my brother when he is getting his race car done, but I think it is sometime off.

Toyota does know what is best and its primarily the calibration vanes in the MAF housing not the entire intake box. Other aftermarket intake systems dont have them or they are poorly designed.   What this does is tell the ECU that there is less air coming into the engine which is bad for performance. With a calibrated intake MAF housing it will report the correct amount of air and the ECU can now make the right calculation for fuel, ignition timing and VVT. What we are doing in a nutshell is using the Toyota MAF housing and ditching the restrictive box along with restrictive piping.

Making a proper intake tube with less restrictions is the goal here. With the 2ZZ intake tube it is possible that a little more power is available because the intake tube is slightly larger but I believe the vanes are still calibrated to the MAF which is what is important.

 

[Zspeed]

Toyota does know what is best and its primarily the calibration vanes in the MAF housing not the entire intake box. Other aftermarket intake systems dont have them or they are poorly designed.   What this does is tell the ECU that there is less air coming into the engine which is bad for performance. With a calibrated intake MAF housing it will report the correct amount of air and the ECU can now make the right calculation for fuel, ignition timing and VVT. What we are doing in a nutshell is using the Toyota MAF housing and ditching the restrictive box along with restrictive piping.

Making a proper intake tube with less restrictions is the goal here. With the 2ZZ intake tube it is possible that a little more power is available because the intake tube is slightly larger but I believe the vanes are still calibrated to the MAF which is what is important.

[/quote]

If I can find a decent air filter and necessary piping at a reasonable cost I will have a go.

I do think some of what I have experienced is to do with taking out the poor setup that was in the car in the first place and putting back in something better, even if it is the stock box.

[Dev]

Toyota does know what is best and its primarily the calibration vanes in the MAF housing not the entire intake box. Other aftermarket intake systems dont have them or they are poorly designed.   What this does is tell the ECU that there is less air coming into the engine which is bad for performance. With a calibrated intake MAF housing it will report the correct amount of air and the ECU can now make the right calculation for fuel, ignition timing and VVT. What we are doing in a nutshell is using the Toyota MAF housing and ditching the restrictive box along with restrictive piping.

Making a proper intake tube with less restrictions is the goal here. With the 2ZZ intake tube it is possible that a little more power is available because the intake tube is slightly larger but I believe the vanes are still calibrated to the MAF which is what is important.

If I can find a decent air filter and necessary piping at a reasonable cost I will have a go.

I do think some of what I have experienced is to do with taking out the poor setup that was in the car in the first place and putting back in something better, even if it is the stock box.
[/quote]

Absolutely. Most aftermarket intakes are not that good because they are not calibrated to the engine.
 Once a community of owners realizes this then it is presumed that all aftermarket intakes are junk. 
 That is not exactly true, there is always a reason why.  Most other platforms are ahead of the game where we are sill discovering a lot of this. Unfortunately exclusivity has a downside. I always found it peculiar that for out platform modifications that do make a genuine difference are often not popular.