Preparing to install a Lotus 2ZZ supercharged. Have ECU thoughts...

Started by scottinalaska, April 7, 2022, 06:39

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scottinalaska

Gentlemen, I find so many swaps, but too few who have done this one.
I hoped the engine would be stand-alone controlled by the included Lotus ECU. I don't want to integrate it beyond a few piggybacks to the Toyota ECU which can provide a few basic functions.
Here is the longer version of what I am trying for your consideration:
Basic questions in prepping for installing a 2008 Lotus 2ZZ SC engine with loom and Lotus ECU into my 2005 MR2.
First, I do not have to worry about smog checks here in Alaska. Thus, I am not restricted to "Factory specs."
Would not the 2ZZ SC run fine on the attached Lotus loom and Lotus ECU? I think the only other input needed would be the accelerator DBW pedal, the power and starter from the ignition key, and the AC if I wanted. Those I can certainly splice into the Lotus loom with minimal difficulty. Things like the fuel pump will still be wired into the Toyota ECU.
To my minimal knowledge, the devices remaining can by default be controlled by the Toyota ECU. The primary input that still is needed would be the ABS. That should already still be operational. It's just the Lotus ECU would not have that ABS input, which should not affect engine function. I have other readouts on my dash I'd like to see monitored, such as temperature, RPM, and speed. Could not those three be spliced from the sources, thus feeding that data to both ECUs?
I believe I could get a standalone 1500 dollar ECU and run it all through that. Then I could custom tune it with the supercharger and all. But since Lotus has already done a lot of that heavy lifting, and I am happy to stick to their base "safer" tunings and avoid the further cost.
Am I on the right track here? I realize that the check engine light will illuminate as it will not be receiving enough engine inputs into the Toyota ECU while only receiving an RPM signal. But that wouldn't prevent it from running, would it?
Thanks for your thoughts, even if I have gone mad thinking it so simple.

JB21

Probably better using a stand alone ECU for all the functions body and engine. If a standalone cant do all the body functions then use a 1zz ECU as well.

I run a 1zz ECU for body controls, and a 2zz ECU for engine controls. Cars runs fine with just the 2zz ECU hooked up You just don't have a rev counter, coolant temps and the battery light is on without the 1zz ECU plugged in.

The complication with your set up is the Lotus SC. You will 100% need a decent charge cooler as without its absolutely pointless running a SC in the MR2 given it sits at the rear of the engine bay soaking up all the engine heat. For it to run at optimum you would also need meth injection.

I've spent hours and hours looking in supercharging the 2zz in my MR2 and for me its just not worth it unless you throws thousands at it.

1979scotte

Keep to the standard 2zz ecu for engine control. Using a standalone on that engine  won't gain much without some form of charge cooling its pretty much maxed out and will cost too much.
If you want serious power from a 2zz try a rotex install.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

rusty0273

Quote from: JB21 on April  7, 2022, 09:04Probably better using a stand alone ECU for all the functions body and engine. If a standalone cant do all the body functions then use a 1zz ECU as well.

I run a 1zz ECU for body controls, and a 2zz ECU for engine controls. Cars runs fine with just the 2zz ECU hooked up You just don't have a rev counter, coolant temps and the battery light is on without the 1zz ECU plugged in.

The complication with your set up is the Lotus SC. You will 100% need a decent charge cooler as without its absolutely pointless running a SC in the MR2 given it sits at the rear of the engine bay soaking up all the engine heat. For it to run at optimum you would also need meth injection.

I've spent hours and hours looking in supercharging the 2zz in my MR2 and for me its just not worth it unless you throws thousands at it.

@JB21 I commented previously on one of your posts re. top end power from the Ogura Supercharger being somewhat limited and mainly providing lower end torque. Over winter my engine has been overhauled prompted by a boost leak and one thing that was discovered by Matt Lee was that the center of the sports cat had blown out and jammed in the down-stream exhaust pipe, restricting flow. Once that was sorted, the top end is now much livelier and the engine now revs out with noticeably more verve. Still difficult to judge the impact of the SC on perceivable power without driving back to back but my previous reservations should probably be withdrawn.

Dev

 
You may want to look into fitment of the engine with the SC. The Lotus clearance between the firewall and the intake manifold has a lot more space than the MR2. On a previous discussion else where it was thought that it will not fit without cutting the firewall which is a major modification.

 For the amount of work you are going through its almost like doing a more exotic engine swap than a far simple 2ZZ swap.
  If I was in your shoes I would do a 2ZZ swap with a small turbo that has very little lag and a lot more down low torque. It would be a simple and less complex  that will yield you safe reliable power.


1979scotte

Quote from: Dev on April  7, 2022, 18:54You may want to look into fitment of the engine with the SC. The Lotus clearance between the firewall and the intake manifold has a lot more space than the MR2. On a previous discussion else where it was thought that it will not fit without cutting the firewall which is a major modification.

 For the amount of work you are going though its almost like doing a more exotic engine swap than a far simple 2ZZ swap.
  If I was in your shoes I would do a 2ZZ swap with a small turbo that has very little lag and a lot more down low torque. It would be a simple and less complex  that will yield you safe reliable power.




Sometimes the firewall must be massaged with an Irish scalpel
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

Petrus

Quote from: Dev on April  7, 2022, 18:54If I was in your shoes I would do a 2ZZ swap with a small turbo that has very little lag and a lot more down low torque. It would be a simple and less complex  that will yield you safe reliable power.



Carolyn and Co. did some neat alternative work with a Mini blower.  I´d say that would be the simplest and least hard on the engine.

scottinalaska

Wow! What prized advice and thoughts! Everything from ECU direction to scrapping the whole SC thing! There can be wisdom in the abundance of counselors.
With 18K miles on this nice Lotus 2zzSC and transmission, I felt it almost sacrilegious to separate any of it!
But if cooling it is going to be an issue as JB21 points out, perhaps I don't need to spend hours trying first to fit it, and two, to make it worthwhile.
I do wonder how this NONcooled SC worker for this Elise. As I have researched, apparently some supercharged ones got an intercooler, others did not. But that didn't stop Lotus from slapping the SC on there either way.
And maybe just ONE standalone ECU would be best and not complicate it further. I just need to go find a dyno to get it all tuned up. But again, JB21 offers hope that I could have two ECUs running simultaneously doing different things. Maybe it IS possible if I can cool things down.
Ice racing my 1997 Celica GT4 here in Alaska is sure nice with temps way below freezing. But the MR2 is a summer car, so I must consider that!
Thanks for all your thoughts here. I'll keep you posted on the direction I might be going. Things are tight to figure out how to cool that charge. Arrrgh.
Scott

shnazzle

Both Dick Sloan and @deviantmr-s run the uncooled 2zz SC as per factory and make good power.

Ecu-wise, Dick's runs on a ECUMaster Black with the stock 1zz ecu running the body and gauges.
We had a group buy discount set up a few years ago with RRR Engineering here in UK to make us a custom plug/play harness, fit the ecu and tune it. I'm sure they'd be willing to ship the plug/play harness if you wanted it. If you wanted to go down the route of Ecumaster that is.
2nd time around I'd go Link G4+ personally.

As you're in the US, you may be able to get in touch with Marc at Frankenstein motorworks. If I'm not mistaken he has a little box of tricks that allows you to plug the mr2 dash into a CAN interface, which then can go to any standalone. 

Good luck and keep us posted! There's a lot to be said about a factory setup so you don't need to worry about a setup that was never intended for the engine. But yeah it doesn't fit very easily in the mr2. 


...neutiquam erro.

scottinalaska

1979Scotte,
What pray tell, is an Irish Scalpel? Is this some kind of body tool that massages and stretches sheet metal instead of being so destructive when making room for a SC?

1979scotte

Quote from: scottinalaska on April 12, 2022, 07:161979Scotte,
What pray tell, is an Irish Scalpel? Is this some kind of body tool that massages and stretches sheet metal instead of being so destructive when making room for a SC?

Sledgehammer generally.
You can always use a blow torch to warm things up before you start.
You may not need too. It's was a must when we added a rotrex to my V6.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Free Ukraine 🇺🇦

JB21

If fitting a SC you'd need to cut out the bulkhead and create a hatch. It just makes things so much easier going forward.

Speak with @Danny Scarbro as he has a hatch fitted to his K20 build.

rusty0273

The bulkhead definitely needs to be moved for the 2ZZ + Ogura SC taken from the Corolla. Not absolutely sure with the Lotus unit with different SC but I would work on the assumption that it needs either cut for a hatch or hammered out. My setup (Ogura TX12 from Corolla) runs the original engine ECU for engine management and the 'Car' ECU for the dash functions.

rusty0273

...and it goes without saying really, it makes sense to do any supercharger servicing before fitting (SC Gear Oil, hoses if they have significant wear). Even with a bulkhead hatch access it must be a bit of a pain once the engine is in.

scottinalaska

Well Rusty, your experience of just running two ECUs, one for engine management and the other for the "other" car functions answers my question. It seemed like it would work. It is not like I have traction control that makes the ECU need to listen to the ABS sensors or see what the dash is doing. I may be wrong.
Did you pony any of your 1zz ECU wires to the engine for dash feedback?

rusty0273

I didn't do the install myself but the 1ZZ ECU must be taking several inputs - revs, crankshaft sensor for Air Con control plus possibly others. From what I've read, using the setup with the 2 ECUs is the most common practice. I'm no expert though - that's about the extent of my knowledge!